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topic: 1775Information needed before I build my first turnout
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posted: 10 Jan 2012 20:24

from:

LSWRArt
 
Antibes - France

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Hi everyone,


Hopefully, as there were no comments on the track plan which I recently put on the forum, the layout is not too bad???   (Or perhaps you were all too polite to pull it to pieces?)
 
Unless I get any comments and need to make any changes, I now need to start buying the bits to make my first turnout.  I shall start with a simple turnout on a curve.  But despite reading various postings I am still not sure exactly what I need to buy and how to use some components:
 
- C&L recommend that I use cut-down slide chairs under the crossing nose and where the wing-rails meet. But where do you stop using conventional chairs to support the switch blade and start using slide chairs?   In his tutorial, Richard Lambert mentions 6 slide chairs, but does it depend on the size of turnout that you are building?
 
- I was thinking of using Off-the-Rails check rail chairs (GOG finescale with 1.75mm gap), but these are 4 bolt.  LSWR used 3 bolt chairs for plain track, but does anyone know if the check rail chairs would have been 4-bolt, or were these also 3-bolt?
 
- Off-the-Rails pack includes 8 CC, 2 CCR and 2 CCL chairs (a.k.a. S1C, S1CR and S1CL respectively).  Does that mean 8 chairs for the centre part of the check rail and 2 each for the right and left flared ends of the check rail?
 
- Minimum radius will be 1100mm in the yard and >1200mm on the main (branch) line, for use with a variety of tank locos (Terrier 0-6-0; Radial tank 4-4-2; M7 / 02 4-4-0).  Do I need to gauge widen and, if so, would that be for both the plain track and the turnouts? 
 
If I do have to gauge widen, which companies make G0G-F triangular track gauges? 
 
If I do have to gauge widen on points - does that mean I cannot use check rail chairs, because I would have to separately gauge the check rail.  If so, where would I buy GOG-F check rail chair gauges?
 
N.B.  I will purchase a pre-fabricated common crossing made to fit the Templot template, so I do not have to worry about gauges for that part of the turnout.
 
- In O gauge, is it necessary to notch the running rail to allow for closure of the point blade? 
On Richard’s tutorial, I cannot see that there is a joggle, or a notch.
 
- Do most people use loose heel switches, or flex the switch blade in O gauge?   I thought loose heel might be better, as I am working to suchg small radii.  If I do use loose heel, is the blue line on the Templot template where you put the joint?
 
Sorry for having so many questions and thanks for your help
Arthur


posted: 10 Jan 2012 20:35

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Arthur,

This may be helpful:

message 4620

You won't need any gauge-widening with GOG-F -- it is in effect already widened for sharp curves.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 10 Jan 2012 21:43

from:

mike47j
 
 

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I think you should plan to build one and throw it away.
That way you can experiment and not worry too much.

I don't joggle or notch the running rail, the curved rail usually has a slight bend just before the blade at the start of the turnout curve. Also the tip of the blades need to be very thin so the wheel flange does not climb up.

Flex or hinge, probably depends on how you plan to move the blades.

Mike Johnson

posted: 10 Jan 2012 22:54

from:

Glen Suckling
 
Oswego - New York USA

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Hi Arthur

Peartree Engineering make a very nice 3-point track gauge to GOG-FS standards (32mm).

Old Pullman make one to NMRA-FS standards (approx 31.75mm)

I find that the GOG standard does not need gauge widening for the radii that you quoted whereas the NMRA standard does - effectively widening the NMRA standard to the GOG 32mm.

This is probably goint to horrify some of the purists among us but I use both standards for track and rolling stock. My fiddle yard and approach track are NMRA with code 148 FB rail. The scenic part of the layout is GOG with code 125 BH rail. Trains to both British and American standards run well over all of the track. On occasions I have even been known to run mixed trains without any problems. Surprisingly I find that the track gauge is not critical to good running (within reason) what you have to watch is the back to back measurement of the wheel sets and the check rail gauge; if you get these right the trains will forgive almost everything else.

Having said that I am now going to duck for cover!

Good luck with your track laying,

Glen

 

 
Last edited on 10 Jan 2012 22:56 by Glen Suckling
posted: 11 Jan 2012 08:55

from:

wcampbell23
 
Hamilton, Scotland - United Kingdom

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Hi Arthur

For chair positions have a look at the drawings that can be downloaded from the 4mm scale section of the Exactoscale website. The drawings enlarge so that detail can be seen. They are very useful for the first-timer as you can see what goes where.

The roller type track gauges from C&L will give you check rail spacing as they have grooves for both the running and check rails. For check rail chairs it depends on the type of ordinary chairs you intend to use. For two bolt chairs use these but trim back the base to 30thou beyond the rail and use two per check rail chair. For three bolt chairs use four bolt chairs for the check rails trimmed back as above. Have a good look at drawings and pictures before you start.

Don't forget to get some bridge chairs for the locations where ordinary chairs will not fit.

There are useful topics on RMweb about trackbuilding and these often have useful pictures.

Next thing to ask about - tie bars!

Regards.

posted: 11 Jan 2012 10:12

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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wcampbell23 wrote:
Hi Arthur

For chair positions have a look at the drawings that can be downloaded from the 4mm scale section of the Exactoscale website. The drawings enlarge so that detail can be seen. They are very useful for the first-timer as you can see what goes where.

The roller type track gauges from C&L will give you check rail spacing as they have grooves for both the running and check rails. For check rail chairs it depends on the type of ordinary chairs you intend to use. For two bolt chairs use these but trim back the base to 30thou beyond the rail and use two per check rail chair. For three bolt chairs use four bolt chairs for the check rails trimmed back as above. Have a good look at drawings and pictures before you start.

Don't forget to get some bridge chairs for the locations where ordinary chairs will not fit.

There are useful topics on RMweb about trackbuilding and these often have useful pictures.

Next thing to ask about - tie bars!

Regards.
One problem is that the available 3 bolt chairs are not of the correct pattern. Exactoscale make the correct chair(2 bolts on the outside) in 4mm but not 7mm (at least not yet), so it might be worthwhile contacting them to find out the likelihood or otherwise of production in 7mm scale.

posted: 11 Jan 2012 10:42

from:

richard_t
 
Nr. Spalding, South Holland - United Kingdom

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One could use the Midland pattern, 4-bolt, chairs cut up for the check rail chairs, on the ones from Daivd R via Shapeways.

posted: 11 Jan 2012 13:40

from:

LSWRArt
 
Antibes - France

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Thanks for all the useful input.
Now to start getting the bits to France...
All the best
Arthur

posted: 11 Jan 2012 16:27

from:

wcampbell23
 
Hamilton, Scotland - United Kingdom

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Borg-Rail wrote:
wcampbell23 wrote
For check rail chairs it depends on the type of ordinary chairs you intend to use. For two bolt chairs use these but trim back the base to 30thou beyond the rail and use two per check rail chair. For three bolt chairs use four bolt chairs for the check rails trimmed back as above. Have a good look at drawings and pictures before you start.
One problem is that the available 3 bolt chairs are not of the correct pattern. Exactoscale make the correct chair(2 bolts on the outside) in 4mm but not 7mm (at least not yet), so it might be worthwhile contacting them to find out the likelihood or otherwise of production in 7mm scale.
That is precisely why I suggested using 4 bolt (hole) chairs for the check rail chairs like this:

54_111125_090000000.jpg54_111125_090000000.jpg

Regards

Bill Campbell.

posted: 11 Jan 2012 17:05

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Yes but that doesn't solve the issue with regard to the running rail chairs, which is what I was alluding to (2 bolts on the outside 1 on the inner - see photo on Wizard Models website for the 4mm versions.

posted: 11 Jan 2012 20:49

from:

LSWRArt
 
Antibes - France

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Hi Bill - thanks for the photo. That helped to clarify things.
Stephen - I have contacted Exactoscale and also OffTheRails to see if either of them have any correct pattern 7mm LSWR chairs in the pipeline.
If not, I guess it could be hack and shunt, but then the chairs will not hold the rail!
I can do a 2-D cad dwg, but that complexity in 3D is way beyond my skill level, so no way I can get do a design for Shapeways myself.
Ugh!!!
Arthur

posted: 11 Jan 2012 22:54

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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wcampbell23 wrote:
The roller type track gauges from C&L will give you check rail spacing as they have grooves for both the running and check rails.

No, no no.

Check rails are set only by either: the flangway gauge (in the crossing) or the check gauge. They are not set in any other way.

Alan
Last edited on 11 Jan 2012 22:54 by Alan Turner
posted: 12 Jan 2012 06:50

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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No both wrong! Its the distance from the the check rail face to the opposite running rail. I know it's a different scale but have a look at 00-SF Yahoo Group to see what I mean and the type of gauge ideal for doing this, ordinary roller gauges are difficult to use for this.

posted: 12 Jan 2012 07:05

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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In the absence of any correct pattern chairs being forthcoming you might consider the following combination.
Plywood timbering with rivets every 4th sleeper and using half chairs of 4 bolt and 2 bolt Exactoscale chairs (C&L 2 bolts are a different shape).

Otherwise on the horizon is the possibility of low-cost 3d printing, check out both the BBC News website, where I read yesterday of plans to introduce a $500 printer. I have also stumbled across something called 'reprap Mendel'. The only downside is that both would require 3d cad and to use Sketchup etc I will have to upgrade my Graphics Card.:(

posted: 12 Jan 2012 07:36

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Borg-Rail wrote:
No both wrong! Its the distance from the the check rail face to the opposite running rail.

Which is what I said. The crossing flangeway is set with the flangeway tool and the opposing check rail using the check gauge.

Alan

posted: 12 Jan 2012 07:49

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,
Thank you for the clarification, which is of course correct.

Stephen
Alan Turner wrote:

Borg-Rail wrote:
No both wrong! Its the distance from the the check rail face to the opposite running rail.

Which is what I said. The crossing flangeway is set with the flangeway tool and the opposing check rail using the check gauge.

Alan


posted: 12 Jan 2012 08:26

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:

Borg-Rail wrote:
No both wrong! Its the distance from the the check rail face to the opposite running rail.

Which is what I said. The crossing flangeway is set with the flangeway tool and the opposing check rail using the check gauge.
Alan,

Going back to your original point,  if a roller gauge, or any gauge, is made to hold check rails and the dimensions are accurate,  then the Check Gauge in these gauges will be accurate.  The rule about setting check rails with the check gauge is important when laying check rails with gauge widening.  With pointwork I believe there should be no gauge widening at the crossing so an accurate roller gauge with check rail slots should be good for setting check rails - with a flat filed on on outside flange so that the gauge can sit on the crossing nose.

Going against that rule, I have built crossings with gauge widening but made up roller gauges specially to the increased gauge and also made the check rail gap flange on one side to match the increased check rail gap with the gauge widening to provide the correct check gauge.

Jim.

posted: 12 Jan 2012 10:55

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Jim Guthrie wrote:
With pointwork I believe there should be no gauge widening at the crossing so an accurate roller gauge with check rail slots should be good for setting check rails - with a flat filed on on outside flange so that the gauge can sit on the crossing nose.
Hi Jim,

There is no reason not to have gauge-widening through V-crossings if necessary. The prototype does this if the radius requires it, and makes special widened check rail chairs for the purpose.

I have seen this new "rule" against gauge-widening in V-crossings crop up on several forums recently. I don't know where these things suddenly come from. :?

My feeling is that gauge tools which combine more than two slots in a single tool are undesirable, but I know they are commonly available. If wing rail and check rail slots are combined in a single 4-slot roller gauge, then the following problems arise:

1. It's impossible to use them to construct V-crossings on sharp curves with gauge-widening.

2. It confuses the setting of the V-crossing flangeway with the check gauge. These are two completely independent settings and shouldn't be mixed up. The flangeway gap dimension at the check rail is the instantaneous difference between the check gauge and the track gauge at that location. It's not necessarily the same as the V-crossing flangeway gap at the wing rail. And it's not necessarily the same for every V-crossing, i.e. if there is any gauge-widening.

3. If there is a problem with the track, it is impossible to see which rail is in error, using a combined multi-slot gauge tool to test it.


2_120535_080000000.png2_120535_080000000.png

The rules are:

a. Use a track gauge tool to set the running rails. This can be a roller gauge with two slots, or a triangular 3-point gauge to introduce automatic gauge-widening on sharp curves.

b. Use a check gauge tool to set the check rails. (1. above) This is usually a two-slot roller gauge, with a flat-portion for gauging from the nose of the vee. This dimension is the most important in constructing track. You could just about get away with constructing the other rails by eye from the template, but not the check rails. If the check rails are not correctly set, there is a real risk that wheel flanges will strike the nose of the vee and derail.

The check gauge tool engages the check rail only and is clear of the other rails. This is the 00-SF check gauge tool:

2_151030_530000000.png2_151030_530000000.png
v = nose of crossing vee
w = wing rail alongside vee
c = check rail
r = running rail, possibly gauge-widened
f = flat on tool to clear the top of the vee

c. Use a crossing flangeway gauge to set the V-crossing flangeway gap between the vee and the wing rails. (2. above) This is usually a small flat piece of metal of the required thickness, usually sourced from precision shim or a feeler gauge or similar. It should be a close fit in the gap, otherwise there is a risk that wheels will drop in the gap in front of the vee with a bump. Under no circumstances should this gauge be used to set the check rails -- use the check gauge tool as in b. above.

The EMGS and Scalefour and other scale societies supply sets of the 3 gauge tools as above, so that the above rules can be followed. They don't supply combined roller gauges.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 12 Jan 2012 11:11

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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That was the gauge (00-SF)I was alluding to and wouldn't be without. Unfortunately I don't think the Brook-Smith Gauge sets are currently available for GOG-F, though you might pick a set up second-hand.

posted: 13 Jan 2012 10:14

from:

LSWRArt
 
Antibes - France

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Martin
While I fully understand your point that gauge widening can be essential on points, as much as on plain track curves, and is essential in S-7, S4... on small radius curves, would you agree with an earlier comment that, as GOG-F already has overscale flangeway gaps and fairly loose tolerances, there is no need to gauge widen, or to adjust the check rail gap? 
The reason that I asked is that I was going to use David Rayner's combined running rail / check rail chairs which absolutely fix the gap to the GOG-F standard (1.75mm gap to the running rail), but I understand that will mean I cannot then use gauge widening (on main line minimum radius will be 1200mm, yard 1100mm  with 0-6-0, 4-4-2, 4-4-0 tank locos).
Thanks
Arthur

posted: 13 Jan 2012 10:40

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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LSWRArt wrote:
on small radius curves, would you agree with an earlier comment that, as GOG-F already has overscale flangeway gaps and fairly loose tolerances, there is no need to gauge widen, or to adjust the check rail gap?
Hi Arthur,

Yes.

32mm GOG-F is an old standard, derived in the days when 0 gauge trains were expected to go round 4ft or even 3ft radius curves. It therefore has the necessary gauge-widening already built in. You should never need to add any more. The same applies to the traditional 16.5mm 00 gauge standards, where curves of 2ft or 18" radius were the norm.

Nowadays with gentler curves more usual, you can get much better running and appearance by removing the gauge-widening except where you actually need it. So for example 31.5mm 0-MF with 1.5mm flangeways is gaining acceptance as the best option for 0 gauge using all existing wheels, widened to 32mm only on sharp curves. Likewise 16.2mm 00-SF is becoming popular, widened to 16.5mm only on sharp curves.

Unfortunately, if the check rail chairs you wish to use have 1.75mm flangeways, your options are a bit restricted. I suggest using a custom track gauge of 31.75mm, thus creating the same 30.0mm check gauge as for 0-MF, and applying a fixed 0.25mm gauge-widening throughout.

You can then use 1.5mm flangeways at the V-crossing and gain the same improved running with full support through crossings as for 0-MF. You can't do that at 32mm gauge with 30.25mm check gauge because the check span might be a bit too wide for some wheels.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 13 Jan 2012 14:52

from:

LSWRArt
 
Antibes - France

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Hi Martin
That is certainly an interesting idea if I can find someone who could make me some 31.75mm gauges. This would certainly improve the running over GOG-F without having any compatibility issues.
Unfortunately, in the space I have available I am working with these very tight curves, although I have kept them as large as possible throughout the layout.
All the best
Arthur

posted: 11 Sep 2020 18:33

from:

Igor Kurgan
 
Netherlands

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Good evening all, this is a old post i am aware of this and a bit off topic.
For my own building i would like to get this strait for myself, sorry.
 
Martin wrote:
b. Use a check gauge tool to set the check rails. (1. above) This is usually a two-slot roller gauge, with a flat-portion for gauging from the nose of the vee. This dimension is the most important in constructing track. You could just about get away with constructing the other rails by eye from the template, but not the check rails. If the check rails are not correctly set, there is a real risk that wheel flanges will strike the nose of the vee and derail.

With that "vee" you are pointing out the "heart" of the frog?
With setting in this particular case you are referring to gap between the running rail and the check rail and not so much about the length of the check rails?

With my "up side down" building method i think i am pretty precise, not necessarily close?
Are there checks for p-32/1f? or somewhere where i can retrieve the by me desired measurements?
 
With best regards Igor



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