Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 3610-14
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posted: 11 Mar 2008 18:25

from:

Andy G
 
 

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What is the best way of setting Templot up to produce templates for 7mm scale 2 foot gauge track, O-14?  My primary interest is to produce a track plan representing Ffestiniog practice (1880s).  Sleeper positioning is not important as they will be buried under what I think is slate waste ballast.  The standards are basically EM Original less 4mm.

Thanks
Andy

posted: 11 Mar 2008 20:06

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Andy G wrote:
What is the best way of setting Templot up to produce templates for 7mm scale 2 foot gauge track, O-14?
Hi Andy,

There are no pre-set sizes for narrow-gauge prototypes in Templot because of the huge variety of sizes and scales in use. However it's quite straightforward to make the custom settings needed -- I will do you a video shortly for 0-14 (or 0n2 or 0n24 as it's often known :) ).

In the meantime there is a screenshot and download available for 0n30 (16.5mm gauge) in the Samples and examples area:

topic 28

which you can explore to see how it's done.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 11 Mar 2008 20:30

from:

Andy G
 
 

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Thanks Martin, I'll look forward to that.  In the meantime I'll have a look at the On30 sample.

Andy

posted: 11 Mar 2008 21:54

from:

Ian Everett
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote
In the meantime there is a screenshot and download available for 0n30 (16.5mm gauge) in the Samples and examples area

How does 16.5mm gauge in 7mm scale translate to "On30"?

Ian

(Confused of Wharfedale...)

posted: 11 Mar 2008 22:05

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Ian Everett wrote:
(Confused of Wharfedale...)
Hi Ian,

Aren't we all? :)

How does 16.5mm gauge in 7mm scale translate to "On30"?
0n30 is the common designation for 0 scale n.g. modelling on 16.5mm gauge track. The 30 means 30" = 2ft-6in gauge.

In the UK 0 scale means 7mm/ft, so 2ft-6in should really be 17.5mm gauge.

In America 0 scale means 1:48, so 2ft-6in should really be 5/8" = 15.9mm gauge.

Narrow-gauge modellers have the happy knack of skating over such discrepancies. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 12 Mar 2008 01:26

from:

Thor Lawrence
 
Reykjavik - Iceland

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Ian Everett asked:
How does 16.5mm gauge in 7mm scale translate to "On30"?
It doesn't.

However, under the terms of our collective modellers' licence, we are allowed to "adjust" matters to our individual satisfaction. 0n30 implies 0 scale on the equivalent of 30 inch track. 30 inch = 2.5 feet. At 7 mm/ft, that gives a track gauge of  17.5 mm. Hmmm. There are no commercial track parts available (AFAIK) for 17.5 mm gauge track. Right let us invoke Modellers' licence. All together now, raise your pints and say "Use standard 00/H0 track, and we promise to buy a pint for them wot can tell the difference. Cheers!"

I believe the technical term for such adjustments to reality are known as "sleight of hand".

Yrs
Thor

Thor Lawrence
Technical writing and editing for the applied natural sciences
GSM: +354+ 868 5124
HMRS: 3751; GOG: 8090
Skype: thorlawrence

posted: 12 Mar 2008 02:06

from:

Andy G
 
 

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Thor Lawrence wrote:
and we promise to buy a pint for them wot can tell the difference. Cheers!
But heading back towards the topic I easily spotted that Dinas 1869 is 14mm gauge rather than the more common 16.5, but then 2.5 is a bit more noticeable.

Andy

posted: 12 Mar 2008 06:04

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Andy G wrote:
I easily spotted that Dinas 1869 is 14mm gauge rather than the more common 16.5, but then 2.5 is a bit more noticeable.


That's because Dinas is a 2ft prototype therefore 2x7=14mm.

Alan

posted: 12 Mar 2008 13:54

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Alan wrote:
That's because Dinas is a 2ft prototype therefore 2x7=14mm
Not being the slightest bit pedantic, of course, but wasn't Dinas 1ft 11½in gauge? :D

posted: 12 Mar 2008 14:41

from:

Andy G
 
 

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Paul Boyd wrote:
Alan wrote:
That's because Dinas is a 2ft prototype therefore 2x7=14mm
Not being the slightest bit pedantic, of course, but wasn't Dinas 1ft 11½in gauge? :D
Apparently it varied over the years, the original dimension given by James Spooner was 2'1" over the centres of the rails, which should roughly equate to the above gauge.  The current dimension, I think, is  1ft 11 5/8in. 
The half inch difference equates to approx 0.2mm in 7mm scale, hardly discernible to the naked eye and as there is already a standard at 14mm it seems more sensible to make use of that.

Andy

posted: 20 Mar 2008 22:47

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Andy,

I have now prepared the video which I promised showing how to customize a turnout for 7mm scale, 14mm narrow-gauge.

Details at:

topic 376

regards,

Martin.

posted: 22 Mar 2008 06:10

from:

Bruce Wilson
 
Barrie - Ontario Canada

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I am trying to make a template for a WDLR 30 m radius turnout.  David Woodcock on the O14 yahoo group provided the following information

"
Since Bruce asks about the 30 metre radius points in particular, I
will attempt to give some approximate dimensions which all relate to
the straight stock rail:

First section (with point blades) - 300 cm long comprising
52.5 cm plain straight
175 cm point blades (which are both straight and planed straight)
with diverging stock rail curved at 29.4 metres nominal radius
72.5 cm straight with diverging rails curved at 29.4/30 metres
nominal radius

Second section (plain straight and curved diverging tracks
interlaced) - 200 cm long

Third section with crossing and wing and check rails - 250 cm long
Crossing nose occurs at 150 cm
Diverging track is straight for approximately 50 cm before and 75 cm
after crossing nose, otherwise curved
WIng rails are 100 cm long, check rails 200 cm

Fourth section (plain straight and curved diverging tracks) - 125 cm
long

The final mid-point of the diverging track is approximately 15 cm
short of the final mid-point of the straight track (ie at 860 cm
rather than 875 cm) and 120 cm off-set from it.
The angle of divergence is approximately 15 degrees.

I hope this is helpful.

David Woodcock"

I made a sketch in VisualCadd and David says it looks close.  The sketch follows.

I have been looking at Martin's video and trying to draw the template for this turnout.  I am having trouble trying to get the geometry correct.  I am having trouble with the straight section through the V-crossing.  Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

Bruce Wilson
Barrie, Ontario

Attachment: attach_260_361_WDLR30mRadiusTurnout.PNG 850

posted: 22 Mar 2008 11:57

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Bruce,

The missing information is either the planing angle on the blades, or the heel spread (offset) dimension (distance between the running edges at the switch heel):

wdlr_ng1.pngwdlr_ng1.png

Also needed is the angle at the V-crossing (frog), the 15 degrees is presumably the exit angle beyond the curve?

Can you obtain this information? If not we can proceed on trial and error and guesswork. Ideally we also need the rail top width and the width of the blunt nose on the vee.

In a single template Templot can provide either a straight section all through the V-crossing ("regular" type) or a curve running all through ("curviform" type). To add a curved divergence beyond a straight V-crossing requires a separate additional template. The two templates can be grouped for the purpose of making crossovers, etc.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 22 Mar 2008 17:33

from:

Bruce Wilson
 
Barrie - Ontario Canada

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Martin:

I have emailed David to see if he has any more information.  I can tell you this is based on 20 lb/yd rail.  Based on information John Clutterbuck has on the O-14 yahoo group the closest commercial rail size is MicroEngineering Code 55 and that is what I will be using to build the track.  I have looked around the web but can not, yet, find the dimensions for this rail but I am sure I have seen it somewhere.  I appears John's diagram has been drawn to scale so failing anything else I will get some dimensions from it.

Thanks

Bruce Wilson
Barrie, Ontario

posted: 22 Mar 2008 18:53

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Bruce Wilson wrote: 
the closest commercial rail size is MicroEngineering Code 55 and that is what I will be using to build the track.  I have looked around the web but can not, yet, find the dimensions for this rail but I am sure I have seen it somewhere.
Hi Bruce,

I meant the prototype rail head width. For British Standard FB rails, 25lb/yd is the smallest with a head width of 1.1/2". For the Mining rail sections, 20lb FB rail has a head width of 1.7/32". We can use these sizes as typical.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 23 Mar 2008 03:57

from:

Bruce Wilson
 
Barrie - Ontario Canada

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Thanks for the information Martin.  Waht I was going to do was measure the code 55 rail and convert that to prototype size but since you have the dimensionsx handy for soemthing close that will work.  I am still in touch with David and will let you know what he comes up with.  I amy ask him to join use here

Bruce Wilson
Barrie, Ontario

posted: 23 Mar 2008 20:35

from:

Andy G
 
 

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Martin,
Many thanks for the video.  I'd managed to work out quite a few of the settings but had many unanswered questions and wasn't sure I'd done it the right way.  I'll spend sometime working through the video and finding out what each setting refers to and then all I'll need to do is find out the correct dimensions for an FR turnout - wish I'd measured the Welsh Highland turnouts we were working on three years ago!

Thanks again for your time and effort
Andy

posted: 25 Mar 2008 05:44

from:

Bruce Wilson
 
Barrie - Ontario Canada

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Martin:

Some more information from David

"Note however that:
1) I think the inner stock rail is curved (at 29.4m inside rail-head 
radius) from the point where the point blades start to the end of the 
divergent track - except for the straight lengths indicated opposite 
the crossing, (but I haven't attempted the algebraic geometry to 
prove it - if it doesn't quite work out then there are some 
transitional elements in it).

2) Because the point blades are straight, the outer "curved" 
divergent rail does not precisely parallel the inner curved divergent 
rail through this area of the point. The geometry is comprised, the 
practice differing from the theoretical, but it works. (Note that 
this - and all sorts of other compromises - happen as a matter of 
course in prototype pointwork - narrow or standard gauge.)

3) My references to the crossing nose refer to the theoretical 
"vanishing point" where the two rail running faces would cross, 
ignoring blunting (which I guess would be 1 cm or 1.25 cm).

4) The rail width is immaterial to the geometry of the point which 
all centres round rail running faces - a nominal 60 cm apart - or the 
mid-point - 30 cm/30 cm - between them. If you draw up the point on 
this basis, you just add the rail head width that your model will 
actually use (typically ~0.80 mm).


Hope this is helpful

David"



posted: 25 Apr 2008 17:38

from:

John Clutterbuck
 
 

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I have only just joined this forum and am not currently a Templot user as I had built most of the track for my grand project (in O-14 & ScaleSeven) some years ago. However I am now considering buying it as I may remodel some of the O-14 trackwork, and have therefore been exploring it's features and came across this forum and this topic.

I watched the video on defining an O-14 turnout with great interest and feel its a very helpful way of gaining an insight into how the product works before you take the plunge with the credit card -  I wish some of the "enterprise modelling products" I have to use for work would do the same!

However, in the video I noticed that the point blades seem continuous with the closure rails whereas usually I model them as per the prototype with a hinged switch heel using a fishplate and simulated spacer block. The switch blades themselves being straight throughout. This is perhaps my ignorance of Templot notation. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

John

posted: 25 Apr 2008 22:22

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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John Clutterbuck wrote:
However, in the video I noticed that the point blades seem continuous with the closure rails whereas usually I model them as per the prototype with a hinged switch heel using a fishplate and simulated spacer block. The switch blades themselves being straight throughout. This is perhaps my ignorance of Templot notation. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
Hi John,

If you are in the US, you may not be aware that  flexible switches have been the norm for the UK standard-gauge prototype for about the last 70 years. Narrow-gauge switches are almost invariably loose-heel.

Templot doesn't differentiate between flexible and loose-heel (hinged) construction of the switches, because it doesn't affect the geometry of the switch rails when closed. It is up to you to use (or not) the appropriate method of constructing the switches when building the turnout, according to your prototype.

There is a radial end mark shown at the switch heel position, and there is a rail-joint mark shown at the end of the switch rail. Frequently these coincide, according to the prototype data entered in creating the custom switch. In some prototype designs the heel data refers to a virtual heel some way short of the physical rail joint, and in this case these two positions do not coincide.

The rail joint mark shows where the switch rails (points) would be hinged in a loose-heel switch. Whether you model it hinged or flexible is up to you. Here's a diagram showing that:

switch_marks.pngswitch_marks.png

In some designs the loose heel occurs between the timbers, using a loose fishplate design. In other designs the loose heel is combined with a heel-block chair or rail fixing, and in that case it occurs on a timber centre.

If you are modelling with overscale flangeway gaps, it may not be possible to have a working loose-heel in the correct prototype position, because there would not be sufficient flangeway clearance behind it. You then have the choice of extending the switch rails and moving the hinge position; or modelling it as a flexible switch instead, with a dummy joint at the heel position.

There is some further discusion about custom switches in the Fn3 topic.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 26 Apr 2008 03:20

from:

John Clutterbuck
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
If you are in the US, you may not be aware that  flexible switches have been the norm for the UK standard-gauge prototype for about the last 70 years. Narrow-gauge switches are almost invariably loose-heel.
Hi Martin,

Thanks for the explanation.

Just for clarification I am very much based in the UK and model in 7mm scale an albeit ficticous British 2' narrow gauge railway along the lines of the Ashover LR or original WHR. Others have already commented about my trackwork articles I wrote a while back for Roy Link's Industrial and Narrow Gauge Railway Modelling Review: http://www.narrowgaugeandindustrial.com/

Regards
John

posted: 24 May 2008 03:59

from:

Paul Holmes
 
 

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Hi All

A bit late in the discussion - but I have just joined up after using Templot for several years.  Dinas WAS designed using Templot and I decided to use Roy Link's 14mm gauge standards - ie 18mm EM standards less 4mm.  I nearly went for 13.8mm gauge but decided that this would make using Romford RP25 driving wheels and 14mm gauge axles too difficult.  Dinas was supposed to be a quick layout as an interlude from 4mm narrow gauge - also built with templot but to 7.83mm gauge - but that is another story.....

Track on Dinas is built using S scale Sociaety components - code 95 bullhead and cast whitemetal chairs - on 7mm scale ply sleepers standard gauge cut in half. 

Paul Holmes - builder of Dinas


Andy G wrote:
Paul Boyd wrote:
Alan wrote:
That's because Dinas is a 2ft prototype therefore 2x7=14mm
Not being the slightest bit pedantic, of course, but wasn't Dinas 1ft 11½in gauge? :D
Apparently it varied over the years, the original dimension given by James Spooner was 2'1" over the centres of the rails, which should roughly equate to the above gauge.  The current dimension, I think, is  1ft 11 5/8in. 
The half inch difference equates to approx 0.2mm in 7mm scale, hardly discernible to the naked eye and as there is already a standard at 14mm it seems more sensible to make use of that.

Andy


posted: 8 Aug 2011 13:34

from:

Bruce A Wilson
 
Barrie - Ontario Canada

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Martin:

The heel spread is 50 mm and I think the question on the crossing angle has been answered


Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Bruce,

The missing information is either the planing angle on the blades, or the heel spread (offset) dimension (distance between the running edges at the switch heel):

wdlr_ng1.pngwdlr_ng1.png

Also needed is the angle at the V-crossing (frog), the 15 degrees is presumably the exit angle beyond the curve?

Can you obtain this information? If not we can proceed on trial and error and guesswork. Ideally we also need the rail top width and the width of the blunt nose on the vee.

In a single template Templot can provide either a straight section all through the V-crossing ("regular" type) or a curve running all through ("curviform" type). To add a curved divergence beyond a straight V-crossing requires a separate additional template. The two templates can be grouped for the purpose of making crossovers, etc.

regards,

Martin.




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