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... topic: 3269 Blunt nose position on "A" Timber posted: 12 May 2018 16:55 from: richard_t Hello I've been wondering on the location of the blunt nose of a common crossing on the "A" timber. In the Scale 7 information sheet "Prototype Track Design and Construction" Figure 7 suggests that's it's 4" from the centre line of the timber. And that's the default Templot uses. But I can't see how this can be the case for either built up chairs or solid cast iron chairs. In the case of built up chairs, the crossing has a 3 inch extension in front of the blunt nose, which is bolted through the chair and the timber: 499_121146_390000000.png (Dimensions are for 7mm/ft with full size inches in square brackets) British Railways Track (ed 3), Figure 40 also shows a figure of 4", but this is from the center line of the chair, which is backed up by a footnote to Table 13 "The 'A' Chair comes under the nose of the crossing ...
... to leave making the second cuts until after the vee is assembled, producing a neater result, but it is difficult to hold the assembled vee for that if you intend to file them in a jig. The splice rail C is as B, and the point rail D is the same again but of the opposite hand. It is notched down to the web to make a soldered joint at s. In view of the solder fill and jig assembly, a hand filed notch is good enough. The final tasks are to blunt off the nose as shown, to a scale width of 3/4" (bullhead) or 5/8" (flat-bottom), and to re-instate the rail-head corner radius on the filed areas. A few strokes with a fine file and a final polish with abrasive paper will do that. It's also a good idea to take a few thou off the top of the vee nose so that it dips down slightly below the wing rails. This allows for the coning angle on the ...
... topic: 2497 blunt nose marker posted: 31 Jul 2014 11:17 from: Phil O Hi Martin. Would it be possible to add a line on the template to assist in locating the position of the blunt nose, preferably a different colour, as I am struggling with the assembly of some flat bottom railed turnouts. A first for me, up til now I have only built bullhead turnouts. Thanks Phil posted: 31 Jul 2014 12:00 from: Martin Wynne Phil O wrote: Would it be possible to add a line on the template to assist in locating the position of the blunt nose, preferably a different colour, as I am struggling with the assembly of some flat bottom railed turnouts. A first for me, up til now I have only built bullhead turnouts. Hi Phil, Templot already marks the blunt nose on the vee, and the Fine Point (FP) gauge intersection: 2_160721_340000000.png What additional line did you have in mind? For flat-bottom vees the blunt nose is 5/8" wide and ...
... foresee any great problems with the running. Regards Tony. Hello Tony Thanks for your thoughts on the switch blades and I'm interested in your observations of the upper blade being too thick. I'm using steel rail and as I produced this one in the Scalefour society jig, I went a touch too far and filed too much off leaving the centre web very thin (foil like), I tried repairing it by filing back the point to get to more solid rail but maybe went a bit far and as a result have too blunt a nose. But here my question to you is, how different is this point( on a moving K crossing) to the blunt nose of a common crossing, which really is quite blunt? Should it be rounded off reduced in height by a smidgen as with a common crossing, or am I barking up the wrong tree? I mentioned the rail being steel as I've been dipping in and out of your treatise on turnout construction over on E4rum, which is excellent by the way, and noticed your comments about ...
... topic: 854 Fine Point and blunt nose of vee posted: 7 Jun 2009 13:33 from: Martin Wynne An erroneous remark on RMweb today (" the '+' on the Templot template marks where the true point of the V should be.") caused me to post a correction. I think it's worth repeating here. The pink+ mark on the Templot template doesn't show the tip of the vee, it shows the position of the "Fine Point" (FP), i.e. the intersection of the track gauge lines, at peg position CTRL-4. The actual vee nose should be blunted back in the prototypical fashion so that it is strong enough to withstand wheel impacts and is properly supported in the "A" chair on the "A" timber. Here's a close-up of a Templot template showing that: blunt_nose.png It's worth printing a duplicate copy of the template so that the position of details obscured by the timbers can be checked during construction. For bullhead track the blunt nose width is 3/4 ...
... from the 6.25" in calculating the switch deflection angle and hence the new effective offset. You must then further add the vertex length to the effective lead length to heel, and assume that the effective toe is at the vertex point. This is so that Templot can calculate the switch deflection angle correctly. You must also add this vertex length to the stated overall turnout lead length in comparing the drawing with the lead length shown by Templot. In Templot you will also need to change to CLM unit angles, and change the blunt nose width to US-style 1/2" to get accurate lead length dimensions. I will do all this for you if you wish, but it will have to wait a few days, sorry. I'm sorry it is so complicated. Full built-in geometry for US-style turnouts is on my list for a future upgrade, but I can't say when that will be. At present US-style turnouts can be matched exactly, but it is necessary to enter the above adjustments and calculations manually. ...
7. GW Turnouts
... topic: 1893 GW Turnouts posted: 30 Mar 2012 16:35 from: Phil O Hi Martin I seem to be getting a problem with the turnout templates, in that they were all done from a master template Great Western turnout as far as the crossing was concerned IE blunt nose set at 11/16ths and 4 inches from the timber Centre Line which I had set up in EM Gauge. I converted this to 00 for the purpose of this layout. When I started to sort out the timbering to suit Mr Smith's book I checked the dimensions of the first few turnout's at the left hand end of the layout and find that the fine point was 0.01mm and the centre of the timber to the fine point is 5.25 inches, so I started resetting them, on reopening the file the information is giving me these dimensions but looking at the template they look OK. I have opened up an earlier version with similar results> Have I done something wrong or is it a glitch. I attach the box files. I am using XP home ...
... topic: 3052 Crossing nose. To blunt or not? posted: 23 Jul 2017 23:42 from: Andrew Duncan Hello Martin Did I read it or dream it that you wrote somewhere, that on the model, the crossing nose could in fact be quite sharp and therefore longer so reducing the unsupported gap between nose and wing rail? As I'm modelling in EM where there's a sizable gap at the crossing, my aim in making the nose sharper and longer would be to reduce the gap and therefore the likely hood of wheels bumping through crossings. If you feel it is workable are there downsides to this approach? Kind regards Andrew posted: 24 Jul 2017 01:45 from: Martin Wynne Hi Andrew, Knife-edge sharp vees look awful to anyone familiar with prototype track, and there shouldn't be any need to use them in EM or 4-SF (00-SF). The prototype blunt nose width is 3/4 ", which scales to 0.25mm (10 thou) wide at the tip. With 1.0mm flangeways each ...
... sense, so some of these dimensions can't be directly set as they stand. There is no way to draw a line on the screen and have it converted to track. Templot does the drawing work for you. The usual way to get a full prototypical match is to watch the dimensions showing in the information panel as you adjust the turnout by mouse action, until the desired dimension is obtained. Before that you may need to make some other non-default settings, such as changing to CLM unit angles or changing the blunt nose width. Also it's not unknown for prototype drawings created before the digital age to contain errors, such that it is impossible for two dimensions shown to be reconciled. 2_070542_140000000.png To answer your specific questions: Q1. The "1 /2 point of frog" is called the blunt nose. It is the width of the tip of the vee. In the UK it is not 1/2". For traditional UK bullhead track on non-GWR lines it is 3/4 ", which is the Templot ...
... :25 from: Martin Wynne Richard Lambert wrote: The crossing noses on the 'standard' standard track take an almighty battering......The wheels are thus. Now given that, what should the track work standards be? Wheel Standards: Back to back: 40mm Wheel width: 6mm Flange width: 1.5mm Tread: 4.5mm Back to back plus flange: 41.5mm Hi Richard, The crossing noses are taking a battering, because like most of the "traditional" model railway standards, no allowance has been made for a blunt nose on the vee. And in order for the wheels to be fully supported (and in this case only barely so), the nose must be made dead sharp. I have no practical experience of Gauge 1, so this below is based purely on the dimensions you gave. I suggest going back to basics and deriving the track from the actual wheels. We start with the magic fraction of 9/14ths. Which is the optimum ratio between flange thickness and flangeway gap. So with a flange thickness of 1.5mm ...
... here! Last edited on 21 Mar 2010 17:10 by David R posted: 12 Mar 2010 15:07 from: Martin Wynne David R wrote: Doesn't everybody? 100_120848_350000000.jpg Although I hope you make a better job of it than I did here! Hi David, That looks excellent. It's not often you see the spacer blocks and bolts modelled. But I'm a bit worried about the sharpness of the nose. Unless it's an optical illusion, that looks almost a knife edge. For traditional bullhead the vee nose is blunted back from the FP gauge intersection to a nose width of 3/4" (GWR 11/16", FB 5/8 "). Here's an excellent pic from Mick Nicholson showing an almost new bullhead crossing. You can see how the vee nose has been blunted back from the intersection, and also profiled down below the level of the wing rails to match the coning angle on the wheels. The nose is always over the A timber and enclosed within the built-up A chair and spacers: 2_270449_340000000.jpg ...
... topic: 824 blunt nose of switchblade and joggling of stock rail posted: 20 May 2009 07:20 from: DANNY POSTHUMUS Hi all Can I have a blunt nose on the switchblade toe without joggling the stock rail? I call the distance from the actual point of the switch to the blunt part of the switch the "VERTEX". CAN THIS BE DONE: danny_blade_table.gif thanks regards danny posted: 20 May 2009 08:47 from: Martin Wynne DANNY POSTHUMUS wrote: Can I have a blunt nose on the switchblade toe without joggling the stock rail? danny_blade_table.gif Hi Danny, I'm sorry to say these "thick-tip" switches are not (yet) supported in Templot. They are the usual arrangement for USA-style AREA switches (where the blade tip thickness is normally 1/8 ", corresponding to your 3mm). They are on my "to do" list, but as they are not used in the UK they have not had priority. Sorry. For a model construction template, you can simply create a custom ...
... rails at different lengths for example in a 1:7 crossing, point rail 13' 3" and splice rail 13' 9" Hi Geoff, Sorry, no. You can represent a custom rail joint on the template using a severely shoved bonus timber (reduce the width to zero). What is the prototype? In the vast majority of cases the splice rail length is set so that both legs of the vee are the same length. For example the usual dimensions of REA bullhead 1:7 crossings from the blunt nose are: Point and Splice assembled= 13'-10" Splice rail only= 13'-1.5" And for original inclined FB: Point and Splice assembled= 14'-0" Splice rail only= 13'-3" The couple of inches difference is accounted for by the changed blunt nose dimensioning, and the wider timber spacing at joints for FB. regards, Martin. posted: 17 Feb 2012 15:34 from: shawg info is taken from NERA's L.N.E.R standard permanent way 95r B.S Rail ...
... topic: 3818 Print error on blunt nose posted: 21 Nov 2020 12:36 from: Paul Boyd Hi Martin I've found a bit of a curiosity when printing templates where the blunt nose as displayed on the screen continues to a sharp point on the printouts. On the print preview attached, you can see that the centre crossing is ok, but the other two show the rails continuing to the fine point. Those two happen to be gaunt turnouts, but on the attached box file there's a normal turnout that shows the same effect. Not really a problem from a build point of view, but probably something that shouldn't happen, or I've done something strange! Cheers, Paul 105_210730_380000000.png Attachment: attach_3177_3818_group_2020_11_21 _1228_52.box 12 posted: 21 Nov 2020 13:47 from: Martin Wynne Paul Boyd wrote: Not really a problem from a build point of view, but probably something that shouldn't happen, or I've done something strange! Hi Paul, Yes, you have done something strange! You have set the rail-section to flat-bottom, ...
... switch)turnout-curve radius (rail gauge-face)= 366.98switch-curve radial centre: X=[ -4162745.59] Y= 99908314.26 (from CTRL-0 )turnout-curve radial centre: X= 85.64 Y= 364.79 (from CTRL-0 )V -crossing entry-straight (curve-end to fine-point)= 10.2 switch front (rail-joint to switch-toe)= 37.92virtual lead (switch-toe to fine-point)= 118.25actual lead (switch-toe to blunt nose)= 120.91blunt nose to timber A= 2.33width of blunt nose= 0.44 wing rail reach length (main-side)= 28.0wing rail reach length (turnout-side)= 28.0check rail overall length (main-side)= 91.0check rail overall length (turnout-side)= 91.0------------smallest radius on this template= 362 mm( 14.3" )total angular swing on this template= 0 degrees (in main road)----- ...
... a virtual toe position in front of the toe where the thickness would be zero if the point was extended (called the "vertex length"). You need to add on this vertex length to the "lead to heel" dimension when creating a custom switch in Templot, and when comparing the turnout lead length. There are two different turnout lead length dimensions. "virtual lead" is from switch toe to the "fine point" (gauge intersection). "actual lead" is from the switch toe to the blunt nose of the vee. The default blunt nose width in Templot is 3/4". For most USA prototypes it is 1/2". The difference between the virtual lead and the actual lead therefore differs (and varies of course with the crossing angle). You need to change the blunt nose width to 1/2" in Templot, and also be clear whether you are referring to the virtual lead or the actual lead. The usual quoted radius figure for commercial pointwork is the substitution radius. Most ...
... . Templot includes full customizing options for the switches, so the idea is that users create their own company templates from the prototype data. And hopefully share them around other users. Of those drawings I have viewed, there are some dimensions noted which give the spacing between the centres of adjacent chairs for various sized and angled crossings. Unfortunately, none as far as I can see, give a datum starting point where the dimensions should be taken from. I can't see your drawings, but usually the chair centres start from the blunt nose of the vee. The distance from there to the centre of the A chair is usually given, typically 3", 4" or 5". And then all other chair centres follow on from the A chair. Before any timber shoving takes place the assumption is that the timber will be placed centrally under the chair centres. There is a mechanism in the shove timbers dialog to set zero on any timber centre, and enter the spacing(s) to the next timber(s) from there. There ...
... think of. You may have noticed I make no attempt to plane the switch rails. I just let them merge with the stock(?) rails. If we wanted to get fancy I suppose we could swing one of the points and plane the rail by taking a slice off it in Turbocad. At the crossing Vee I just merge the two rails then slice off the overhangs. You can see how the web under the nose is missing leaving the nose unsupported! (I also knocked a piece off the Vee to blunt it a bit) If you wanted to go to the trouble, the unsupported nose could be fixed by providing sweep lines on the template that replicate the bends you use to make Vees using your bend, solder and file method. To add the webs for printable turnouts, I deleted the rails (obviously) and added webs using the same method that I used to create the rails, only this time sweeping the profile of the web along the gauge polylines. IIRC, I had to slice off some extraneous bits under ...
... them. He asked about the chances of using these on EM-SF. I reckon it could be done but he would loose the ability to run them on standard 1mm flangeway EM. Do you concur? Thanks Rob Hi Rob, P4 wheels have 0.4mm effective flange thickness, so need to be set at 16.8mm max back-to-back for both EM-SF and regular EM at 17.2mm check gauge. The issue will be wheel width: For EM-SF the minimum wheel width is 2 x 0.8mm+ 0.25mm blunt nose= 1.85mm. P4 loco wheels are 6" scale width (2mm) so should be good on EM-SF. P4 wagon and coach wheels are 5" scale (1.7mm) so might be a bit bumpy over the crossings, unless constructed with sharp-nose vees. For regular EM the minimum wheel width is 2 x 1.0mm+ 0.25mm blunt nose= 2.25mm. Even EMGS wheels at 2.3mm wide are marginal with prototypical blunt noses (that's why EM-SF improves the running). P4 wheels are going ...
... topic: 3499 output elements- new settings and print preview posted: 10 Sep 2019 20:51 from: Paul Boyd Hi Martin, I seem to be finding my way back to Templot again! There's a couple of features that would be quite nice to have, if they're not already there somewhere:- When printing the background templates, any platforms with a solid infill obliterate any text, such as timber numbering or "blunt nose" etc. Could it be arranged so that the platform is always underneath any text? Hatching partially solves this, but even so, the text then becomes chopped up. The other one, which I'm sure is an option somewhere, is to not show the template number on the output, so just "A11" instead of "PL172.A11". Cheers, Paul Last edited on 10 Sep 2019 20:51 by Paul Boyd posted: 12 Sep 2019 19:08 from: Martin Wynne Paul Boyd wrote: Hi Martin, I seem to be finding my way back to Templot again! There's a couple ...
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