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    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.
  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.

Accurate intersection of rails

Quick reply >

Phil G

Member
Location
New Zealand
@Martin Wynne
Hi Martin,
I have encounter a problem which to be honest is likely because I lack the skill to do it correctly.

The issue is on my Scissors for HN I am finding as much I might I can't get the bottom rails of the half diamond ( 7 DR517 to truly intersect with the turnout rails of 6 DL 516) they are close but not quite right. the closeup photos shows this. If I was building this scissors the old fashioned way I would say what I have is close enough to print and create the scissors, any errors being resolved as the rails are solder in place.

For plug track I am not sure its accurate enough. So I though I would ask for your input before wasting time making everything only to find out its not good enough.

In the first screen shot I am showing the area of concern, the second one is close up. I have also attached the box file. if its not good enough could you perhaps point in the right direction to fixing this Issue? To be totally honest its already a bit of compromise because no matter how hard I try I could not get the 4 tie bars to be in the right place on the underlaying map and still create space for the diamond to fit in, without the checkrails being in the way of the K crossings.

Question about scissors crossing .jpg


close up of the scissor issue .jpg


By the way I have no idea why 6-TL516 is coloured red. it's not grouped, it was a group as I did group it to to 5-TL511 to slide them both along a bit, but when ungrouping this one stayed red. This is not an issue more of curiosity as I have even seen that happen before.

cheers
phil,
 

Attachments

  • HN west side scissiors.box
    58.9 KB · Views: 54
  • HN with 6 x diamonds fortimber heaving.bgs3
    3.6 MB · Views: 41
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message ref: 14142
By the way I have no idea why 6-TL516 is coloured red.
@Phil G @Steve_Cornford

Hi Phil,

It's red because you have marked it as a brick template, with red as the brick colour:


marker_col1..png



As a temporary kludge for experimental plug track (one of many), the brick colour uses the template's marker colour. The default marker colour is red. To change it back to normal colours:


set_marker_col.png



p.s. It's not a good idea to mark your track-plan templates as brick templates. To create timbering bricks, you should copy* a chunk of your track-plan into clear space on the trackpad, and do the bricklaying on the copies.

*group > copy group >

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 14143
@Phil G @Steve_Cornford

Hi Phil,

It's red because you have marked it as a brick template, with red as the brick colour:


View attachment 12216


As a temporary kludge for experimental plug track (one of many), the brick colour uses the template's marker colour. The default marker colour is red. To change it back to normal colours:


View attachment 12215


p.s. It's not a good idea to mark your track-plan templates as brick templates. To create timbering bricks, you should copy* a chunk of your track-plan into clear space on the trackpad, and do the bricklaying on the copies.

*group > copy group >

cheers,

Martin.
OK well that explains that, I think I did play around a bit to select the two turnouts for grouping when I wanted to move them. So that that makes total sense now Thanks.
Any comments on the question about, is my effort good enough to proceed? Cheers
Phil
 
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message ref: 14144
Hi Phil,
I'm not sure how You created the top right to bottom left crossing but, when you extend/lengthen the LH half diamond You can see that the main road curvature is not correct hence, not aligning correctly.
HN Westside Snip.png
 
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message ref: 14145
Hi Terry,
thanks, Yes fully awere its not quite right the reason you can see that error is, in order to get the vee side (a bit better I rotated the whole of the half diamond which is mainly what you have picked by lengthen it Rotating back will more less solve that but did not fix the orginal vee issue.
cheers
phil,
In terms of how it was done,
placed the 4 turnouts in a close to the best position as could, created two short lengths of plain track between 4 exit roads then do a simple create diamond from these two lengths.
cheers
phil
 
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message ref: 14146
PS I also changed the original vee angle very slightly it was originally v3.8 and I changed it to v3.97
the attached screen shot showed what I got the first time Plus I added chairs to start to see what it would look like.
cheers
Phil
 

Attachments

  • Orginal settigns .jpg
    Orginal settigns .jpg
    257.7 KB · Views: 48
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message ref: 14147
placed the 4 turnouts in a close to the best position as could, created two short lengths of plain track between 4 exit roads then do a simple create diamond from these two lengths.
Hi Phil,
created two short lengths of plain track between 4 exit roads

Just wondering whether that is the best or only way to connect these two pairs of turnouts?
Steve
 
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message ref: 14148
@Phil G

Hi Phil,

To create an exact match the red turnout needs to be A-6.5 curviform instead of the A-8 which you have there.

However, 1:6.5 is a bit tight for a running line. You might prefer to change to A-7 or B-7. Here's how to do that:

Change the half-diamond to plain track and do find intersection against the red turnout:


phil_xing1.png


(n.b. I should have extended the length of the control template to ensure the intersection can be found.)

Use the expert option and set the required angle to 1:7. Then click find intersection. You can watch Templot moving the notch as it does the calculations and adjusts the radius.

Then the required answer is no thanks because all we wanted was the notch:


phil_xing2.png



Shorten back the control template, and then make the turnout the control and change it to A-7 or B-7, curviform. Set the turnout-road exit to minimum, zoom in close and snake (or orbit or roam) the turnout until the FP marker is exactly over the notch:


phil_xing3.png



And the result should be -- all nicely aligned:


phil_xing4.png



Now you need to go back and do the V-crossing for the half-diamond again, using the same process.

You could try for a B-8 instead (extend the length of the control template first), but be careful about the V-checking.

To get the switch toes (not stretcher bars) over the map marks you would probably need to swap to LNWR loose-heel switches instead of REA.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 14150
Hi Martin, thanks for this,
I will digest and try again tomorrow, The scissors is not actually in a running line, the bgs3 does not really show high up view if it did. It becomes obvious the track coming of the left hand side of the 3 way is called the down slow loop line and seems to be there mainly for goods trains getting out of the way. The scissors allows it to take the other route which are all sidings so it just possible a 6.5 is correct.
I did wonder if the issue with switch toes as because of LNWR loose-heel as that cropped up before, but not really knowing enough about loose-heels that was just a passing though.
cheers
Phil
 
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message ref: 14151
I did wonder if the issue with switch toes as because of LNWR loose-heel as that cropped up before, but not really knowing enough about loose-heels that was just a passing though.
@Phil G

Hi Phil,

I believe that the LNWR Society has a book of track diagrams available to members. If you are modelling the BR period it's likely that LNWR switches in running lines would have been renewed with REA by then -- but not necessarily on the map. Later map revisions might still show much earlier ground-surveyed data such as switch toes (and probably still does).

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 14153
Now you need to go back and do the V-crossing for the half-diamond again, using the same process.
@Phil G @Steve_Cornford

Hi Phil,

A glib remark from me, for something which isn't so easy.

Or it wasn't -- it is now. I went AWOL from plug track to do a bit of track-planning. :)

I have added 2 more expert options on the find intersection dialog:


phil_xing5.png



The V-crossing in the half-diamond has been automatically adjusted to 1:3.83 so that the intersection on the upper turnout is exactly 1:7 -- which allows the turnout to be a standard A-7 or B-7, as for the lower turnout.

Or it could be a B-8 or C-8 if preferred:


phil_xing6.png



Which has changed the V-crossing in the diamond to 1:4.06

The option to adjust the K-crossing angle won't be needed very often -- for a diamond-crossing the K-angle in the 2 half-diamonds must remain always the same. It might be useful where the half-diamond is being used as a partial template in a complex formation with the K-crossing blanked out -- instead of a manual adjustment using the F10 mouse action.

Will be in the next program update.

( I will post the files shortly so that those compiling their own Templot5 in Lazarus can have the changes immediately.)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 14293
Hi Martin,
to be honest I did get a bit stuck, but did not want to bother you anymore, fully understand 24 hours a is no longer enough :)
I will absorb and try again
cheers
phil,
 
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@Phil O @Martin Wynne
Hi Phil,

I will have a look at it in the morning, English time. Having looked previously at what you need to achieve, when you posted the signal box diagram.
Hi Phil and Martin,
I have moved this to a better post, I have also updated the box file slightly attached, in so far as I noticed the lower left turnout no longer had a 6 way as it heads left (to the station platform), So I have twisted it slightly to maintain the 6 foot, in so doing the interconnection between the lower left and upper right turnouts are not quite right.
I have also added 3 dummy turnouts 20, 25, and 26 on the box file. these are there only as placer holders to give me an idea where the slip rails would run, note both 20 and 26 are the slip coming off the upper fast line. and only done to see the interconnection would look
I tried to follow the advice you gave Terry on message ref 6848 but failed badly. I think because the interconnecting road between the down fast and up fast does not have the same geometry as the half diamond that will make up the slip road, if I have my dummy ( box template 25 right it should be close to a V9.
Please note there is zero urgency for this, it very much a case of if and when you get time. I would however appreciate the advice.

cheers
Phil,
 

Attachments

  • EMSF-down-lines scissors-transition-.box
    201.6 KB · Views: 36
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message ref: 15000
Hi Phil,

The easiest way to create slips is to use tools, make slip, then choose either make single-slip - same hand or make single-slip - opposite hand, if it comes out wrong choose cancel and start again. For this method, you need to use regular crossings, otherwise you need to follow this video https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=s0T_FTndoYW0kB6t3xTKMQ2

Note that regular crossings will alter the geometry slightly.
 
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message ref: 15001
Last edited:
Hi Phil,

The easiest way to create slips is to use tools, make slip, then choose either make single-slip - same hand or make single-slip - opposite hand, if it comes out wrong choose cancel and start again. For this method, you need to use regular crossings, otherwise you need to follow this video https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=s0T_FTndoYW0kB6t3xTKMQ2

Note that regular crossings will alter the geometry slightly.
Hi Phil,
Yes I am awere of that, the issue is non of the crossings are regular crossing so it's back to the other options
cheers
Phil
 
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message ref: 15003
Phil,

I have almost finished sorting out the single slip at the platform end, but pub o'clock intervened. I have had to relearn bits of Templot, that I had long forgotten. With a bit of luck, the 2nd slip will get sorted pretty quickly, once the first is finished.
 
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message ref: 15015
Hi Phil,
The HN project is to try fit the trackwork on to the NLS 1936 map as best I can, it's clearly I bit of an issue when you can't see the bgs.3
That is why all the templates are where they are, I have attached a screenshot and I guess I could send you a zipped bgs.3 of the whole junction if you think it would help. Its also the reason non of the diamonds are regular, I am trying to make then work to the map.

I have also been wading my way though the slips, trying to follow the info Martin gave Terry in message message ref: 6848
Although I can't see quite why Martin made the comment "You do that by looking at the average angles for the diamond-crossing (here say 1:4), double it (1:8), then if the slip curve is tightening compared with a regular diamond," Yes Terry's was a V3.92 and a V4.54 so an average of 4 rounded makes sense, in my case the V average is much flatter. So does that then mean my V average of V7.02 and V7.95 would be 7.485 say 7.5 and if I double it to V15? yet a v9 looks about right on the map!. At this stage I got a bit stuck. The slip on top right of the scissor would follow the same logic, and from what I can see would not allow it to fit into the space between the other vee and k crossings .
Having done all of that the next issue is checking the whole thing. Its all getting very hard to work out what they must have done on the real railway.
any advise would be most welcome.

screenshot-of-scissors-and slips-south-of bfg-.jpg


cheers
Phil,
 
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message ref: 15016
Although I can't see quite why Martin made the comment "You do that by looking at the average angles for the diamond-crossing (here say 1:4), double it (1:8),
@Phil G

Hi Phil,

I was referring to the angles in the diamond-crossing in the middle of the scissors crossover. Double it to find the angles for the connecting turnouts, or connecting slip, approximately.

Try to keep the slip no flatter than 1:8, otherwise it would need to be a switch-diamond slip, with moving K-crossings.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 15017
@Phil G

Hi Phil,

I was referring to the angles in the diamond-crossing in the middle of the scissors crossover. Double it to find the angles for the connecting turnouts, or connecting slip, approximately.

Try to keep the slip no flatter than 1:8, otherwise it would need to be a switch-diamond slip, with moving K-crossings.

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin,
I am now further confused, Terrys example is a outside slip in a irregular diamond.
Do you mean the K crossing angles? I am sorry I automatically assumed the Vee crossing.

Also does your comment 1:8 imply I could be looking at switch diamonds here? or is it more likely my assumption of V9 type curvature is in fact a V8?
(I may be confusing everybody including myself here, the comments about a V9 are all about supposing a turnout over the diamond to basically simulate what the curvature would look like in relation the map. I had assumed a single slip is made for two part turnout templates, therefore superimposing one would give me a ball park as to the required angle I would need. that could be totally wrong.

The formation of the diamond on the up fast was quite easy because the up fast was straight and the turnout off the up slow was a regular turnout. which then gave me a K of 7.45 both sides with vee angles of 7.02 and 7.95

cheers
Phil
 
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message ref: 15018
Hi Phil,
This is the 50" national grid map
View attachment 12750
still as tiles and not rotated.
It looks to me like 3/4 of a scissors plus a single slip
Did you use the 50" national grid map to start?
Steve
Hi Steve,
no 25" can you clue me into getting that map. I just can't get a 50" with what I am doing that is exactly what I need what year was it?
cheers
Phil
 
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message ref: 15023
Hi Phil,
This is the 50" national grid map
View attachment 12750
still as tiles and not rotated.
It looks to me like 3/4 of a scissors plus a single slip
Did you use the 50" national grid map to start?
Steve
Hi Steve,
no 25" is all I can get and yes it is a 3/4 scissors plus a single slip, the two bottom turnouts of the scissors are on the down slow line the other turnout and the single slip are on the down fast, the slip goes directly to another slip on the up fast. can you clue me into getting that map? As I just can't get a 50" with what I am doing, by the way what yes was that.
cheers
Phil
 
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message ref: 15026
As I just can't get a 50" with what I am doing, by the way what yes was that.
@Phil G @Philip

Hi Phil,

You should be able to get the 50" map in the next program update. Philip has updated the program code for accessing the NLS maps.

Thanks Philip. (y)

cheers,

Martin.
 
_______________
message ref: 15027
Hi Phil,
This is the 50" national grid map
View attachment 12750
still as tiles and not rotated.
It looks to me like 3/4 of a scissors plus a single slip
Did you use the 50" national grid map to start?
Steve
Hi Steve,
if your using the new code from phil from AU that explains it. can you do me a favour could you add two more tiles to the bottom of your screenshot and then post the bgs.3 file, I can rotate to suit and then send to Phil O that is certainly a better map that will help heaps with my current predicament.
cheers
phil,
.
 
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message ref: 15028
Hi Guys,
For anybody interested, I have been doing some digging on the NLS web site today, its turned out the 1:50 inch 1959 map ( the one Steve has downloaded has only recently been made avaible, and there only two in the Stockport area currently. It just so happens one of them covers HN south of Bower-fold road bridge, the actual junction and the branch to Reddish is not yet avaible.
There is also a 1.50 inch map from 1893 of the same area. I have attached screen shots of both for interest. Its amazing how different that scissors is between the two maps.

I will be modeling the 1959 version as it makes more sense, The other seems to prevent parallel running of both the slow lines at the same time. It looks as though its was more like a double slip and then single arrangement. I have no idea when it was changed, certainly before 1949 as I have a photo from 1949 showing the layout as it looks in the 1959 map
If anybody does know when it was changed I would be very interested to hear from you.
cheers
Phil
 

Attachments

  • scissors-and-slips-south-of-bfb-1958.jpg
    scissors-and-slips-south-of-bfb-1958.jpg
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  • Scissors-and-slips-south-of-BFB-1893.jpg
    Scissors-and-slips-south-of-BFB-1893.jpg
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Hi Martin,
After spent some time trying to get my head around your post to Terry irregular outside slips I have I have a lot more questions.
the first thing is having download Terry box file and trying to copy your instructions in message
https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...text=_______________-,message ref: 6848,-good
I found I could not get the same 1; 747 ram angle,
I thing found if I roamed the first turnout I got slightly different ram values ranging for 1.622 1.631 1.668 not even close to your value. no idea what I am doing wrong. what I did find is roaming the first turnout does change the intersection point when I was doing it. is that correct?
All of this also got me looks at there the inside crossing rail would be. does the last photo look about right noting I have changed the check rails' to try and make it all fit.
cheers
Phil,
 

Attachments

  • first-go-as-roaming-first-turnout.jpg
    first-go-as-roaming-first-turnout.jpg
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  • second-go-at-roaming-first-turnout.jpg
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  • third- go- at -roamin-the -first-tunrout.jpg
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  • question-about-the-inside-slip-rail-and-the-checkin.jpg
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message ref: 15031
Phil,

I have done the slip at the end of the platform, I just need to do the 2nd one, probably after breakfast. It certaianly stirred the brain cells, but Martin's video certainly helped me through the process.
 
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message ref: 15034
Here you go Phil:-
I had to get rid of some tiles to make it small enough to post, If you need more I can always email them.

Steve
Hi Steve,
thanks, Just wondering if its not too much trouble could you looking at the tiles you have posted, redo it so its a bank of 4 tiles making a box the first 4 would be the bridge pair and the two that cover the scissors,
and then in a sperate zip file to the next four tiles which would follow on showing the station as that would then allow me to run all four main line rails and then work backwards. That would the me to reorient the whole thing to have the running rails horizontal. That will also be enough work to carry over to the next program update.
Ps not rush only as you find time.
Cheers
Phil
 
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message ref: 15037
Ah.. well that now more sense then. Is there enough room to get an inside slip in that close to the crossing vees?
cheers
Phil,

Phil,

You just have to shorten the checks on the slip side, it's all in the video. Anything 1 in 6 or over is suitable for inside slips. I will leave you to have a go. You shouldn't have too much trouble if you follow the video I linked to further up the page. If you get stuck, just holler.
 
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message ref: 15041
Hi Phil,
Here is another file, containing some more tiles.
I think you should be able to just add them to the one I already sent.

The other option would be for me to send you a beta test copy of T5v556sbc, if that is ok with Martin.

Is it ok if I remove the first file I sent from the post, to avoid cluttering up the forum?

STeve

file removed to save server space
 
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Last edited:
Phil G

I have just switched on the information box and see that your track is EM gauge, I thought you were working in P4?
 
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message ref: 15047
Hi Phil,
Currently in EMSF but thinking about switching to P4, If I remember correctly you were one of the people that pointed out one of the biggest difference between p4 and EMSF is no so much the trackwork but ensuring you have enough space in your rolling stock. IE in a lot of RTR models to actually open the wheels up ( often needs a some space creating)
If you have done any work in P4 that fine I can rework to EMSF myself its actually as at least that way I get both versions :)

on a slightly related topic I started to watch the video you posted the link too and then realised I have a copy of this video but I stopped using it as I could not find the make ladder function. which seems to no longer be in the tools drop down. At that point is it worth watch a video that does not seem to be current. Ironically it was my HN project that got me into looking at ladders because that its really what I think we are looking at here.
Have I missed something re the ladder? I know its the slip we are interested in making, but just asking about the ladder option. has it now gone?
Also in the video there is this screenshot which is very useful however I can't find that page on the forum. Am I looking in the wrong place?
It also struck me some info on what is the difference between and inside and outside slip would be very helpful to anybody who did not know. ( me for example)
In my mind this is area where the companion or the wiki needs some further work, there is a lot of useful info all over the site but some of it you almost stumble across by accident. we need a way for it to be concise and easy to look up. again in my mind all this info should be in prototype practice with maybe a link to the Templot way to achieve this.


info on slips and diamonds.jpg
but I
cheers
Phil,
 
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message ref: 15072
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