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  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed. Some of the earlier pages of this topic are now out-of-date.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.
  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.

CrossOver on a Mac

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roythebus

Member
Location
Kent
Hi all, trying to install the latest version on my applmacbook, have had to re-insatll Crossover to run it, managed to download Templot and it eventually goes to a page "contacting Templot" then freezes. It seems to want to install Templot as a Windows 64 bit application, has this changed from the old 32 bit application that used to work properly with Crossover. I couldn't work out how to get the free version with winebottler, some of this computer stuff is too much for me! Any ideas anybody?
 
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@roythebus @Simon Dunkley

Hi Roy,

There is no change in Templot. It is a 32-bit Windows program, nothing has changed.

I believe you need to upgrade CrossOver to the latest version, or change a setting on the Mac. Maybe Simon can help?

I'm not best pleased with Codeweavers after they sent me an email virtually accusing me of using a pirated copy of CrossOver. I see on their forum that several other users got the same email and feel the same way.

(I use CrossOver on Linux -- I don't have a Mac so I can't help, sorry.)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Thanks for that Martin. Crossover gave me the option of 64 bit Windows, I din't see the 32 bit option. i'll go back into it and see if I can change that setting. It used to work ok on my Mac but for some reason Wine/Crossover vanished recently.
 
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I've tried to reinstall Templot, it has downloaded ok, I've changed the setting to 32 bit windows 10, it starts to install then sticks on "contacting templot" then freezes. Could this be a new glitch? I've tried to contact Crossover but no reply yet from their help desk.
 
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Having tried that, it still freezes on the contacting Templot page, it's to the forefront of vrything and only by pressing the off switch will it disappear! I've deleted all the old Templot setup stuff, deleted Crossover and old wine files and reinstalled clean copies. Crossover reads Templot and half installs it, gets to the contacting Templot and freezes again.
 
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I now get this sort of error message, it's all gibberish to me and means nothing! What do I do with it? /Applications/CrossOver.app/Contents/SharedSupport/CrossOver/CrossOver-Hosted\ Application/wine64-preloader ; exit;





The default interactive shell is now zsh.


To update your account to use zsh, please run `chsh -s /bin/zsh`.


For more details, please visit https://support.apple.com/kb/HT208050.


Roys-MacBook-Pro:~ roysmacbook$ /Applications/CrossOver.app/Contents/SharedSupport/CrossOver/CrossOver-Hosted\ Application/wine64-preloader ; exit;


Usage: /Applications/CrossOver.app/Contents/SharedSupport/CrossOver/CrossOver-Hosted Application/wine64-preloader wine_binary [args





[Process completed]
 
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Right, the latest is that Codeweavers help desk are being helpful, they have downloaded the latest version of Templot on a few Mac machines of various ages and they say it freezes on all their version no matter what they try. It seems to load then goes to "contacting Templot" and that's it. I have to switch the mac off to get the message to go away. They seem happy to try a bug fix which I said ought to be ok with you as it's an open bit of software. It may be something that's crept in on the latest of your bug fixes.

They asked if there's an older version they could download for comparison.
 
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It seems to load then goes to "contacting Templot" and that's it. I have to switch the mac off to get the message to go away.
@roythebus @Simon Dunkley

Hi Roy,

I have just tested again updating Templot on my Ubuntu/Linux/CrossOver system and it is working fine. No problem at all. I knew there wouldn't be because I had tested it recently.

However, please try this. When the "Contacting Templot" message has been showing for a minute or two, drag that message window down the screen. It is very likely that the next dialog for installing the Templot update is hiding behind it.

This has been a constant problem with CrossOver for all the years I have been using it on two different computers. With all Windows programs, not just Templot. CrossOver simply doesn't handle Windows modal dialogs properly. It will keep opening new dialogs behind existing ones.

If that doesn't work on a Mac, I'm sorry about that but I'm getting a bit fed up with this. There is no bug, and nothing has "crept in" as you put it. There is no change in the latest update, and it's working fine.

Templot is my hobby project. I'm happy for others to use it free of charge, subject to the terms of use:

https://85a.uk/templot/companion/terms_of_use.php

but it comes without any warranty of any kind. It is a 32-bit Windows executable program. It is up to anyone wanting to use it to get it running on their system, not me.

I have no idea what you said would be "ok with me", but I strongly suspect that it wouldn't.

But for the next program update I will move the splash startup dialog to the corner of the screen.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hi Martin, thanks for that, I'll give it a try and let the Crossover people know what you think the problem is. I fully understand it's a hobby thing with you.
 
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I tried what you suggested bu the dialogue box is stuck firmly in the middle of the screen, it won't move even though all the other icons on the screen can be moved. The only way to get rid of it is to switch the machine off. I'll leave it to Codeweavers to sort out! Meanwhile I'll see if my old Windows machine will still work. :)
 
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@roythebus

Hi Roy,

If it won't respond, try pressing the ESC key on the keyboard. I assume Macs have an Escape Key? (top-left on Windows keyboards). It might then close, or become movable.

I included an extra escape function in Templot specifically for the situation where CrossOver locks up on modal dialog boxes. It's fine on Linux, but I keep hearing tales of woe on Macs. But I know several Templot users do apparently use CrossOver successfully on Macs. @Simon Dunkley

If no joy immediately, try waiting a while and then pressing ESC again.

I don't understand why the dialog won't move? I know nothing about Macs, but I assume dialogs can be moved about in the same way as on Windows by dragging the top bar? There is nothing in Templot to stop it moving.

If it won't move, try making it very small by dragging the edges. I assume that works on a Mac?

If you contact Codeweavers, tell them it works fine on their Linux version of CrossOver, so they obviously do know how to make it work.

If still no joy, put the Mac in the bin, and get a Windows computer. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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I'll give that a try as well, otherwise I'm just seeing if my old windows machine will still work. At the moment it's been updating for the last 30 minutes or so!

Meanwhile Codeweavers say this:
It seems like the window that Martin is talking about is frozen on the spot. I cannot get it to move either. There is a command called “Missions Control” that reveals all windows that are open, and should show windows behind other windows, including ones that CrossOver creates for applications being opened through it.

**HOW TO OPEN MISSION CONTROL**
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT2...eft or right with,Left Arrow on your keyboard.

Does not look like there are any windows opening behind the “Welcome To Templot” window showing “Contacting Templot . Com
We have had issues in the past with programs opening windows behind other windows. But it has become more application specific now, rather than overall.

**To close out of Templot without force restarting the machine, you can click on the apple logo in the top left corner of the screen and select “Force Quit…” and force quit any “wine64-preloader” applications that are open in the list."

Thanks for your help anyway Martin. Info from Codewavers may be helpful to anyone else who has problems in future!
 
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@roythebus

Hi Roy,

Have you asked Codeweavers to try Templot in their Linux version of CrossOver?

It works fine there, so they should be able to work out what is going wrong in the Mac version of CrossOver.

In the next update I'm going to provide a means on Wine to by-pass Templot accesing the internet. This never-ending problem with CrossOver on a Mac is driving me nuts.

There will be some other means to prevent use of out-of-date versions of Templot on Wine. Such as maybe a time limit of say 3 months after which you will have to download it again in order to continue using it.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Yes I've asked them to do that. Having tried all the above I still get the screen frozen when it gets to "contacting Templot".

the old windows machine is still updating...
 
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This problem is driving me nuts too!! I wonder if it would work just using the free version of Wine if I can remember how to set that up.
 
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@roythebus

Hi Roy,

Here is a method you can use to get Templot started. Sorry, I should have mentioned this before, but my memory is useless nowadays.

internet_defeat.png


1. BEFORE you click the GO button, click the little TM mark above the logo. It's quite small, so will need a precise mouse position to work.

2. the colour dialog will appear. Enter the colours for red, green and blue as 10, 20, and 30.

3. click OK. (The program panel window will go dark blue.)

4. Now click the GO button and Templot will start up without checking the internet.

This works on every computer system I have ever tried, including using CrossOver on Linux. But I'm quite ready to believe that it doesn't work on the dreaded Mac computers.

Under the Terms of Use for Templot, you are not permitted to use out-of-date versions, so you must check that you are using the latest version from time to time, say once a month, by going to:

https://85a.uk/templot/companion/installation.php

and if the current version is different you must download and install it.



I haven't mentioned this method of defeating the internet check many times, but I'm so fed up with the endless hassle of supporting Templot that I don't care any more. If it doesn't work I don't want to know.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Thanks for that Martin, I'll give it a try later on. Needless to say I've let the free trial period of Crossover expire.
 
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Having let the free version of Crossover expire, I deleted then re-installed it! Installed Templot as per your instructions, and, much to my surprise, it works!! The only difference was when I amended to colour settings the screen didn't go dark blue. Just clicked ok and everything seems to work as it should.

Thanks very much for racking your memory module! Remember to pin this as a sticky for future reference.
 
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This never-ending problem with CrossOver on a Mac is driving me nuts.
It lost me nearly 2 years of Templot development (including some testing of the tentative native Mac version I was doing), by wiping files during an upgrade (of Crossover, not Templot). That’s possibly more nuts than you are experiencing!
Sorry I haven’t been around to comment, but as you have said, the issues are with modal windows, where a dialog box goes to the background behind another window, and can’t be seen. This is not unique to Templot, and gets similar complaints from some parts of the gaming community, so it’s at best a quirk of Windows coming through on the Crossover emulation in the MacOS environment.
(As an example, if I try to save and overwrite a file, I cannot see the dialog box which warns me of this, but if I click the y key to say yes, it all works fine, this also happens when deleting a group of templates - I can’t actually see the dialog box, but it is there. I have learned to deal with this by clicking on said key, but it took a while to find out what the problem was and how to work around it.)

It’s frustrating, but then again, every time I use a Windows based machine for home use*, I am reminded how much I prefer the Mac environment (and my previous Mac lasted me 11 years, and was a lot cheaper than replacing a PC every so often). It’s all down to personal preferences: I get that MS Windows has market dominanc, partly due to the initial cheaper first cost, and that Apple is very much a smaller market. Quite what happens with future ARM-based chipsets as they diverge more and more from Intel will be interesting to see.

*PCs I use at work tend to be more rigorously controlled for updates etc, much like Apple do, and the freedom to make changes (or a hash of them!) is removed from users, so lots less goes wrong. There’s a moral in there somewhere!
 
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as you have said, the issues are with modal windows, where a dialog box goes to the background behind another window, and can’t be seen. This is not unique to Templot, and gets similar complaints from some parts of the gaming community, so it’s at best a quirk of Windows coming through on the Crossover emulation in the MacOS environment.
@Simon Dunkley

Hi Simon,

It can't really be called a "quirk" of Windows, when it works just fine on all Windows computers with no problems.

What I don't understand is why you can't just drag the overlapping window out of the way, which is a nuisance but works fine on CrossOver Linux.

Codeweavers have announced some sort of Mac breakthrough today, although how it might affect Templot I have no idea:

https://www.codeweavers.com/blog/mj...tion-crossover-macs-directx-12-support-update

cheers,

Martin.
 
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@Simon Dunkley

Hi Simon,

It can't really be called a "quirk" of Windows, when it works just fine on all Windows computers with no problems.

What I don't understand is why you can't just drag the overlapping window out of the way, which is a nuisance but works fine on CrossOver Linux.

Codeweavers have announced some sort of Mac breakthrough today, although how it might affect Templot I have no idea:

https://www.codeweavers.com/blog/mj...tion-crossover-macs-directx-12-support-update

cheers,

Martin.
The fact that it isn’t an issue within the Windows environment doesn’t stop it from being a quirk within Windows: it just means it is consistently managed within the environment.
As I said, and I chose my words carefully, this is at best a quirk of Windows: it may not be a problem within Windows or Linux, and the difficulty with being able to move the dialog box out of the way is frustrating, but I wonder how on Earth the modality of a dialog box requiring an answer before a program can proceed allows it to go behind other dialog boxes in the first place. It should be on top of everything else, and simply not require other dialog boxes to be moved out of the way. The fact that this isn’t a problem in a native MS environment suggests to me that there is a work around within Windows to resolve the problem, rather than not creating the problem in the first place, and that this has translated over to Linux but not MacOS. I say this as someone who has had considerable exposure over the years to such “fixes” to self-inflicted issues, going back to PC-DOS (created by Microsoft for IBM personal computers) which preceded “messy DOS”, so nicknamed because it had so many shortcomings and shortcuts which led to many of the early problems with Windows.
I don’t think by any means that Apple=better, but I do know that frequently Microsoft=shoddy. Other operating systems I have used over the years don’t (or didn’t - many are long gone now) have the problems that I have encountered with the variations of MS-DOS and MS-Windows over the years.
I suspect that at the root of this is a difference in how dialog boxes operate in the two operating systems, but as frustrating as Apple’s control on things can be, I also suspect that the problem is more likely to do with how MS-Windows was originally written (decades ago) and is simply something where a “post hoc solution” was created rather than resolving the cause: that would also explain why it isn’t an issue for you in Windows. Linux is open source and at some point may well have been tweaked to accommodate this, but as I said, Apple exert greater control and may have simply decided not to fix something that good coding (of the OS, not Templot) shouldn’t permit in the first place. (Such an attitude would coincide with Apple’s sometimes aloof stance!)

This is all irrelevant to the simple fact that a small feature of Windows causes problems in the MacOS environment, even with Crossover interpreting between them, and it’s a royal PITA!
 
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@Simon Dunkley

Hi Simon,

This isn't the place for a Microsoft v. Apple war. :)

All I can say is that I find Windows 11 great to use, and I have no intention of buying an expensive Mac just to find out why CrossOver messes up with Templot on there.

As you may know, I use Delphi5 as the compiler for Templot. The CD says it was released in 1998 for "Windows 98, 95 and NT". That's 25 years ago -- and it still installs and runs on Windows 11 just fine! In fact it is running better and faster on Windows 11 than it has ever done before. Likewise several other utility programs from Windows 95/98 days which I use because I can't find a modern equivalent. They all run just fine on Windows 11.

I wonder how many 25-year-old Mac programs install and run on the latest Mac computers straight out of the box?

And I don't understand how something which has always worked just fine in Windows (modal dialogs always appear on top) can be described as "at best, a quirk"? The code which implements it may or may not be elegant (I have no idea), but all that any user cares about is that it works.

If folks are going to object to software on the basis that it contains some inelegant kludges, they shouldn't be going anywhere near Templot. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Agreed, but W95, 98 and NT (“Not Today” - “Neither Tomorrow”, based on delivery dates) were essentially the imposition of the already established MS WIMP* interface onto a rewrite of DOS based on VMS: which was a very robust and easy to use OS. The primary guy behind writing it had come from DEC, and he basically wrote VMS for them.
I actually really liked W95 and WNT: ok, things move on etc, but those versions worked very well.
There is a story that if you increment each letter of VMS, you get WNT, but that might be apocryphal if not just a conincidence.

Not interested in any wars: just experience of Microsoft over the years shows that sometimes short cuts taken for expediency are resolved by working around the problem as a quick fix, which then gets embedded into everything, leading to security holes and bloatware. It’s not that any particular alternative is necessarily better, just that MS is usually worse than most of the alternatives, but sheer market presence means it wins out. (I am old enough to remember when everyone used Lotus 1-2-3, and Excel was unheard of!) You are using a compiler created specifically to work in the Windows OS environment, so things should work seamlessly in it. If they have some issues outside of it, that means there are differences in how things are done. As I said, at best, this may be a quirk of Windows. What I didn’t say, was that it may be goof by Crossover: Microsoft products are available natively for the Apple product family, and there are no problems using them there.

* WIMP was an acronym developed by the Xerox corporation, I think. If so, then boy, did they see the future and then ignore it…
 
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Interesting to note the Crossover update. I've reloaded Templot today on my Mac machine with the hope of doing some templotting. I had to use Martin's TM fix and alter the colour setting before I could use Templot. I got that far, and have now forgotten how to load my hand-drawn track plan from the late Frank Dyer which I've copied as a PDF into Templot. I'll have a quick look on here, someone's bound to have asked the question in the past. I've got to re-do the whole thing as my original track plan disappeared when my Windows machine crashed in 2015 and I lost everything.

I've also taken the liberty of passing on to Codeweavers the fix that Martin suggested, it may just help them if any future Templot users contact them.
 
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I've had a look at that link, it seems interesting. I finally got the track plan into templot by copying it to a memory stick, but that had to be plugged in before Templot is booted up on the Mac machine. then the TM fix, and Templot found it. all I have to do now is remember how Templot works!!
 
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I've just got latest Templot running on a Macbook Pro with an M1 (i.e. non-Intel) processor, using the latest version of Crossover. Some details may be helpful to others.

1. I had Rosetta 2 installed on the Mac before I started with Templot on this machine. This seems to work perfectly and transparently, so the non-Intel processor isn't a problem.

2. Templot wouldn't run in Wineskin (heap of memory-access violations on start-up), so Crossover is definitely adding something extra to free versions of Wine and seems to be earning its license fee. I shall give them money when the free trial runs out.

3. As noted above, 32-bit Windows is needed and this has to be selected when installing Templot into its Wine "bottle".

4. I told the installer not to make a desktop shortcut, because no Windows desktop to address and I don't think the Templot installer would cope with the Mac desktop. Similarly, no start-menu entry or association of file types. Leaving these out seems not to break anything.

5. Martin's hack to avoid the modal dialogue, detailed above in this thread, is absolutely needed, but only in the first run of Templot. When I restart, it works without the secret handshake.

6. When I stop and restart Crossover, it finds the Wine bottle for Templot, but says that there's no application in there. Panic! But I can start Templot by opening the (emulated) C-drive in Crossover, finding where the Templot .exe is installed, and explicitly opening that in Crossover (needs right click and "open with" on my Mac, as .exe files are bound to a different application).

7. Performance is presumably slowed by emulation in both Crossover and Rosetta 2, but actually performance of the UI is fine. It's faster on this Mac than on my previous Mac with Templot running in a Windows virtual machine. I think the M1 MacBook Pro has a better GPU.
 
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