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TEMPLOT 3D PLUG TRACK - To get up to speed with this experimental project click here.   To watch an introductory video click here.   See the User Guide at Bexhill West.

  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed. Some of the earlier pages of this topic are now out-of-date.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.
  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.

EM-SF again

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Martin Wynne

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message ref: 4260
A supplementary question. It maybe daft, but I'm asking anyway.
Could 0.8mm check chairs be used with 00-SF?
Assuming that there only EM profile wheels in use and B2B set to an appropriate amount. I know it wouldn't actually be 00-SF but is it feasible?
I was thinking of knocking a turnout together to try but realised I'd need some arbitrary dimensions for check gauge, B2B etc...or a flaming great NO.
 
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message ref: 6646
Could 0.8mm check chairs be used with 00-SF?
@Bunchie3174

Hi Ian,

This is where I get bad-tempered. :)

Of course you can use 0.8mm check chairs for 00 models. But it won't be 00-SF. it will be something else. Names have a meaning, and in the case of 00-SF it means 16.2mm track gauge with 1.0mm flangeways.

It's just not fair to beginners to say something like "I use 00-SF but with 0.8mm flangeways". That's how we get so much muddle and confusion in track standards which drives beginners nuts.

If you want to experiment with 0.8mm flangeways in 00 that's great. It would be good to see the results. But you must, must, must invent your own name for it, and not call it 00-SF. How about 00-XF? Extreme-fine.

What did you have in mind for the track gauge? I would strongly recommend reducing it to 16.0mm so that existing EM profile kit wheels running on 00-SF will run on it unchanged. The check gauge would remain the same at 15.2mm (check gauges available from C&L) and the back-to-back remains the same (14.6mm max for kit wheels). It would be possible to mix 00-XF and 00-SF pointwork on the same layout, provided you can accept the much increased minimum radius, and no use of RTR wheels. In effect 00-XF would be "EM-SF minus 2".

If instead you go for 16.2mm or 16.5mm track gauge with 0.8mm flangeways, all bets are off and you are on your own. Stuff you build and run on there won't be interchangeable with any other, friends' rolling stock or layouts, etc. But it's your layout, you can obviously build whatever you wish. Provided you give it its own name and don't cal it one of the existing gauge names.

The narrower flangeways of 0.8mm would obviously look even better than 00-SF, and you could if you wish use up any P4 wheels you have on hand, providing they are wider than 1.9mm. Set them to 14.8mm max back-to-back for P4 wheels.

If you enter your dimensions in Templot, you would be able to build 3D plug track to those dimensions. This is what 00-XF at 16.0mm track gauge and 0.8mm flangeway would look look like:

00_xf_cad.png


The significant improvement in appearance is created by having the flangeway gap narrower than the rail head in the prototype manner, instead of wider than the rail head in all other 00 standards.

If you have 3D printers you could create the above for real to see how it looks. Plug track does the gauging, so you wouldn't need to find 16.0mm track gauges.

p.s. I'm still working on the missing crossing chairs for plug track. I'm aiming to complete the project at the same time as HS2. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 6647
I definitely wouldn't call it 00-SF. I'm aware of the issues around naming conventions. 00-XF is fine by me, and will be used from this point onwards. It was the EM-SF and the minus 2 which triggered it. 16mm track gauge seems the feasible option. I wanted to see it alongside my EM-SF turnout just find out if I could live with the narrower gauge but same flangeway.
 
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message ref: 6648
I definitely wouldn't call it 00-SF. I'm aware of the issues around naming conventions. 00-XF is fine by me, and will be used from this point onwards. It was the EM-SF and the minus 2 which triggered it. 16mm track gauge seems the feasible option. I wanted to see it alongside my EM-SF turnout just find out if I could live with the narrower gauge but same flangeway.
@Bunchie3174

Hi Ian,

Here you go. Will be in the next Templot program update: :)

00_xf_list.png


cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 6649
Hi Martin,
I have been following this tread with some interest, especially when it lead me to the RM web on the subject, and a comment I understand you made which was "Modified RTR wheels definitely won't run", and Romford/Markits will be on the limit and need testing. If you use only EM-SF point work, you would also have the option of using P4 wheels.

My question is what do you mean by modified? Are you talking about taking the RTR wheel and taking the B2B out to a new value (ie the RTR wheel profile remained the same?) Or are you saying even if the RTR tyre was reprofiled, (lathe required) lets say to match a Gibson profile and then the B2B wad set correctly it would still not run?
cheers
Phil,
 
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message ref: 9869
Hi Martin,
I have been following this tread with some interest, especially when it lead me to the RM web on the subject, and a comment I understand you made which was "Modified RTR wheels definitely won't run", and Romford/Markits will be on the limit and need testing. If you use only EM-SF point work, you would also have the option of using P4 wheels.

My question is what do you mean by modified? Are you talking about taking the RTR wheel and taking the B2B out to a new value (ie the RTR wheel profile remained the same?) Or are you saying even if the RTR tyre was reprofiled, (lathe required) lets say to match a Gibson profile and then the B2B wad set correctly it would still not run?
cheers
Phil,
@Phil G

Hi Phil,

I meant modifying the back-to-back on the existing RTR wheels (NMRA RP25/110 profile, 0.8mm flange thickness).

Clearly once you introduce a lathe into the mix, all bets are off. The result is up to you. They would no longer be RTR wheels.

With a flangeway of 0.8mm you are going to need wheel flanges no thicker than 0.6mm. That's why I suggested Romford/Markits wheels (0.7mm flanges) would be marginal.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 9870
Phil,
One of the first things I do with new ( or secondhand ) locos and rolling stock is see how the wheels measure up. RTR wheel widths are typically 2.8mm but this can vary a little. The flange widths are quite variable even though I only buy stuff made in the last 15 years or so. I set a dial capiler to 0.8mm to check the flanges - if there is no 'wiggle' room then you are not going to get very far with them without a lathe. If you set the caliper to a smaller gap you are unlikely to get much that passes the test although there are some. It isn't an exact test as the radius where the flange meets the tread is rather more variable than it should be and that affects the results. You can skim the back of the wheels and restore a gentle radius to the edge so it isn't like a bacon slicer but I suspect this may be getting to be more than you want to get involved in.

Rob
 
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message ref: 9871
They would no longer be RTR wheels
@ Martin, correct, they would be modified RTR wheel profiles :)
Anyway thanks guys, that's very good info.

FYI I have three lathes, one being a very old number 0 ward capstan from the war. Used I believe to make aircraft rivets. Although I don't have 3 ~ph as home, so I will need an inverter. :(
The other two are center lathes. one is a good old Unimat 3, so not much grunt if any. The other is a modern German version of a Myford 7. clearly the go to option in this case.

So I have no issue turning my own wheel profile. Keeping the tyre and the wheel together could be an issue, and may have to be tackled as two separate projects.
In fact somewhere I have a couple of toolroom ground profile forming tools to EM standards, from my toolmaker days. Only issue is can't find them anymore :( I may have even left them in the UK to be honest.

I do agree if the profile is no good, then its a waste of time. That side quality wise you could say exactly the same for any hand built trackwork.
Cheers
Phil,
 
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message ref: 9872
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