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TEMPLOT 3D PLUG TRACK - To get up to speed with this experimental project click here.   To watch an introductory video click here.   See the User Guide at Bexhill West.

  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed. Some of the earlier pages of this topic are now out-of-date.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.
  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.

Experimental Plug Track: 3D-printed, CNC-milled, laser-cut

Quick reply >
Hi Martin,

This is what I get displayed in a 32-bit version of Chitubox after uploading to the "fix" service linked on the .DXF export window.
1630876748175.png

No fillet, but as you can see I generated some deep plugs to go through to the trackbed layer.
This was before uploading to the "fix" service
1630877115767.png

Fillet appears to be there before fixing.
Hope this helps
Steve
 

Attachments

  • OO-SF-S1-Chair.stl
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  • OO-SF-S1-Chair_fixed.stl
    2.8 MB · Views: 143
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Last edited:
@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

Thanks for that. This is what I get back from the repair service:

s1_inner_fillet_fixed.png


So clearly that bug in the file is throwing the repair. I need to get the bug fixed.

And apologies to Timbers for suggesting he might have a problem there. I should have noticed it in my own prints, see earlier in this topic:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/229/post-838

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Martin
island.JPG


The problem it shown by the Red arrow. When the chair is printed from the bottom up the pyramid tip is not supported for several layers. The easiest fix is to introduce a horozontal slab from the tip to the chair.

templot_fixed.jpg



On my version I decided it was better to go for more fill to better support the rail.
rail support.jpg




I have been trying to work out the nominal dimensions of the rail (bull head from the 4mm society). I tried looking at the " 3-D custom rail section" dialogue in templot. Most of it makes sense but could not work out fish angle. Are the initial values shown based on anything? eg the last used non custom option.


Reflecting on how much work is going to be required to get Templot to reliably generate all the chairs types needed for a complete turnout I wonder if it would be better to produce the chairs separately. Placing the sockets on the template is a tremendous step forward even if only for the ordinary chairs.

Timbers
 
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@timbersgalore

Hi Timbers,

Many thanks for finding that. The angle on the underside of the key is from the prototype -- the key is tapered end-to-end so that it can function as a wedge, but is symmetrical front to back so that it can be used either way up. The model key gets distorted in two ways -- I added a rail-side taper at both ends to ease rail threading, and the rail-side is further modified to match the thicker model rail web and fishing angle. There is an option to fill below the key, but as it's not prototypical I left the default to off:

fill_below_key.png


I will modify the bottom of the unfilled key so that it is horizontal, or angled a fraction the other way.

The fishing angles shown for the model rail sections are my best estimate from the samples available. It is obviously better to err towards a steeper angle, rather than risk fracturing the chair if the angle is too low. Likewise the height of the rail foot. If you have access to better info please do share it. Bearing in mind that model rail batches do vary, so it would be wise to leave a bit of leeway in the settings. I have added a rail-fit tweak (see above) which allows for small changes in the rail web thickness.

Reflecting on how much work is going to be required to get Templot to reliably generate all the chairs types needed for a complete turnout I wonder if it would be better to produce the chairs separately. Placing the sockets on the template is a tremendous step forward even if only for the ordinary chairs.

My aim is that Plug Track should be available to any Templot user who wants it, without needing CAD design skills. 3D printers can be purchased or accessed via friends, but the skills to design a chair from prototype dimensions are not so easily acquired. Anyone who wants to source or create their own chairs is obviously free to do so, but I want Plug Track from Templot to be usable as a self-contained system available to anyone.

It also needs to work in any chosen scale -- so that for example the handful of folks using 5.5mm/ft can also have chaired bullhead if they want it (and can find some suitable rail). And likewise at any desired crossing angle, and any desired flangeway gap -- crossing chairs and check rail chairs for say P4 wouldn't be usable in EM. Finding crossing chairs for a 1:7.63 or 1:9.5 crossing in S scale anywhere else seems extremely unlikely, but that might be the only angle which fits the site. On a model we can't use the prototype big 'ammer to make stuff fit, the chairs are in fragile resin, not cast iron. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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What is "Fish centre" How is the fish angle measured (between what).
@timbersgalore

Hi Timbers,

Tightening the fishbolts wedges the fishplate between the angled fishing faces, putting the rail web in tension. Ideally sufficient to ensure that it doesn't become unloaded under the traffic load. Otherwise the bolts would work loose:

fish_angles.png

Note that there is a space between the back of the fishplate and the rail web, otherwise the system doesn't work. The same applies to the fishwashers and spacer blocks which are used on bolted crossings.

The fish angle on all UK REA bullhead and jointed flat-bottom track is 1:2.75. Here is the way the rail is dimensioned:

2_120508_000000000.png


BS-95R prototype dimensions in red. The dimensions in black relate to a sample of C&L rail from AndyB at the time that drawing was made, and taken from this old 2016 topic:

https://85a.uk/templot/archive/topics/topic_2734.php#p29639

You can see that the all-important fishing faces are dimensioned from their intersect on the rail section centre-line. The head and foot depths can then be derived if needed.

n.b. the dimensions in black are NOT metric equivalents of the dimensions in red.

Here is a bit of Exactoscale steel rail, and you can see why I estimated the model fish angles to be much steeper than the prototype:

2_111752_390000000.jpg


I found the Templot chairs quite a sloppy fit on the 4mm society rail. I would say you have overdone the allowance for rail side taper. It would be helpful the know what are the profile numbers for "C&L / EMGS/ S4Soc code 75" rail.

Thanks for the feedback. The chairs which I printed here are a nice close fit on the Exactoscale steel rail and maybe a fraction loose on the C&L nickel-silver rail which I have here. But in both cases the rails are from old stock which I have had for many years, so feedback about current production rail is valuable.

I want to emphasize again that everything related to 3D track which I have released so far is utterly experimental. There is no guarantee that any of it is correct, or workable, or will remain unchanged in a final release. I released it only so that folks could see my direction of travel, maybe join in with some experiments, and provide valuable feedback. There was no intention that it should be used for any actual modelling, because almost certainly it is wrong. The object is to first prove the concept of Plug Track, and if successful only then go back and make it an accurate model of anything. :)

If/when the whole thing works, I will then make fresh drawings as above showing how everything is dimensioned and provide some recommended settings. The settings in the program at present are not a recommendation of anything.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hello Martin

I'm sorry to ask this slightly o/t question, but regarding the fishplates- why does it need the gap behind to work properly? I accept what you are saying and that it does, I'm just trying to understand from an engineering point of view why that is. I can understand the web being put under tension as an aid to locking the tapered edges together, it's just the space at the back that puzzles.

Many thanks
Derek
 
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Hello Martin

I'm sorry to ask this slightly o/t question, but regarding the fishplates- why does it need the gap behind to work properly? I accept what you are saying and that it does, I'm just trying to understand from an engineering point of view why that is. I can understand the web being put under tension as an aid to locking the tapered edges together, it's just the space at the back that puzzles.
@Derek

Hi Derek,

No need to be sorry about asking questions. :)

The space behind the fishplate allows for routine maintenance -- the fishplates need to be tightened up (move inwards) as the fishing faces become worn. Which they will do under heavy traffic -- it is interesting to stand close to a fishplated rail joint and watch what happens as traffic rolls over it.

If the fishplate were to bottom against the rail web, there would be no means to tighten it further, and no way of knowing that the correct tension force had been applied to the rail.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Than helps me a great deal. I can now see that the sample in fornt of me is undersize. My web is 0.40mm (measured by filling off the head/bottom then micrometer).
@timbersgalore

Hi Timbers,

I think you mean oversize? The prototype rail web is 3/4" thick, which scales to 0.25mm in 4mm scale.

All model rail tends to be oversize in web thickness -- although C&L have recently introduced a new code 131 bullhead rail for 7mm scale which has a commendably thin web.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hello Martin and you other geniuses,
Just a thought from a lay person.
With various crossing angles varying by such small amounts would a suitable solvent make it possible to soften chair jaws and enable fitting of fewer angle variations using fewer printed alternatives? Or am I suggesting something that would wreck things?
Regards to you all
Trevor. :)
 
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Hello Martin and you other geniuses,
Just a thought from a lay person.
With various crossing angles varying by such small amounts would a suitable solvent make it possible to soften chair jaws and enable fitting of fewer angle variations using fewer printed alternatives? Or am I suggesting something that would wreck things?
Regards to you all
Trevor. :)

No need to apologize Trevor. I think we are all lay persons here. This is all new and still quite experimental.

As you point out the variation in angle over a fairly wide range of crossings is really quite small and it may not be strictly necessary to model the angles perfectly, particularly in the smaller scales. However, the distances between the chair jaws at the crossings change significantly with the crossing angle so the chairs that incorporate two of more jaws do have to be modeled accurately.

I'm using a slightly different method from Martin. I assemble jaws and baseplates in a CAD program as separate models superimposed on the 2-D Templot template and that does allow me to take advantage of small angle variation. Martin could be doing something similar as he constructs the chair models.

Cheers,
Andy
 
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With various crossing angles varying by such small amounts would a suitable solvent make it possible to soften chair jaws and enable fitting of fewer angle variations using fewer printed alternatives? Or am I suggesting something that would wreck things?
@Trevor

Hi Trevor,

Thanks for your kind words.

But I'm obviously missing something. If you set out to build, say, a C-9 crossover from your Templot track plan, you would export the files for it from Templot in the same way you might print the construction templates for it. Then you would use the exported files to 3D print the required chairs for it.

I don't see what advantage would arise from printing instead the wrong chairs from some other template, and hoping to modify them to fit? The work involved in making the 3D print is exactly the same either way.

Are you looking for a solution to a problem which doesn't exist? :)

The more likely problem, as I develop Plug Track in stages, is that you can have an 'X' chair for any crossing angle you like, and any flangeway gap. But not yet a 'Y' chair for any size at all. Which no doubt will be extremely frustrating, but that's just the way it goes.

Flooding a component with solvent is not a very good way of softening it. It tends to make a sticky mess of the surface, destroying detail in the process, while having little effect on the core of the component. For FDM (filament) printed components, a better way to soften them would be with gentle heat. But that won't work, as far as I know, with cured resin-printed components.

In any event, again as far as I know, we don't have any readily available solvents for the cured resin, or for PLA polymer for FDM. That's why modellers building resin kits tend to use cyano superglue or epoxy adhesive. It is possible to use ABS polymer for FDM printing, in which case butanone solvent could be used. But FDM printing ABS makes unpleasant fumes, and I don't believe it would work very well for chairs in 4mm scale, any more than PLA did when I tried it.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hello Martin

I'm sorry to ask this slightly o/t question, but regarding the fishplates- why does it need the gap behind to work properly? I accept what you are saying and that it does, I'm just trying to understand from an engineering point of view why that is. I can understand the web being put under tension as an aid to locking the tapered edges together, it's just the space at the back that puzzles.

Many thanks
Derek
Hi Derek,

As Martin says the plates have to be able to move further. It's like any wedging action. The wedge has to be able to "keep going" to be effective. If it didn't it would just become a sort of spacer and it could not maintain a tight connection between the surfaces.

The Victorian engineers who came up with the system were very clever!

Cheers,
Andy
 
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HI Martin,
When outputting a string or raft of say S1 chairs, you recomend craeting a rectanglular shape in purple or mauve (cant remember which) that will act as a printing base on the build plate.
Would it be possible to have a whole in either end of the raft, to act as a suspension point for use in a washing and or curing station?
I dont have an elegoo mercury yet but hope to get one the next time there is an offer.
I believe you have mentioned propping the strip on a glass beaker inside the mercury for curing?
Steve
 
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message ref: 2513
HI Martin,
When outputting a string or raft of say S1 chairs, you recomend craeting a rectanglular shape in purple or mauve (cant remember which) that will act as a printing base on the build plate.
Would it be possible to have a whole in either end of the raft, to act as a suspension point for use in a washing and or curing station?
I dont have an elegoo mercury yet but hope to get one the next time there is an offer.
I believe you have mentioned propping the strip on a glass beaker inside the mercury for curing?
Steve
@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

The colour of the rectangle doesn't matter. Any rectangle shape found in the background shapes is treated as a raft when exporting for 3D printing the chairs. Likewise any line shapes found in the background shapes are treated as splints when exporting for 3D printing a timbering brick.

It would be possible to put a hole in the raft (anything is possible :) ), but not very easily with the current code. I would need to write something new for creating the support rafts.

But I don't think a hole is needed -- certainly it didn't occur to me that one was needed when I made the chairs. If you are using the Elegoo wash/cure station, the rafts remain on the build plate while being washed. A bracket is supplied to suspend the build plate in the wash tub.

Likewise when brush washing the fine detail over a suitable container, the rafts can remain on the build plate:

index.php


After washing and blasting dry with an air gun/hairdryer, the rafts are peeled from the build plate ready for curing. Yes, because the chair rafts are so small in relation to the size of the wash/cure station, I placed them on an upturned glass jar on the turntable for curing. That puts them more central within the UV beam, but whether it made the slightest difference I have no way of knowing. I gave them a couple of minutes each way up on the jar. Different coloured resins take different times to cure because the UV needs to penetrate the translucent resin. But the chairs are so small that they seem to need only a couple of minutes. It is being translucent which makes them so difficult to photograph.

Curing continues in UV light until they eventually crumble to dust 5 years later. So keep them in the dark until you need them, paint them as soon as you have used them, and draw the curtains in the railway room when the sun is shining. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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@Phil O

Hi Phil,

Fishplates with bolt holes at 5" centres are intended for flat-bottom rail. Do they fit ok on bullhead? They are 20" long (as opposed to 18" for bullhead) so wouldn't easily fit between the chairs at a bullhead rail joint. Flat-bottom rail fixings do not obstruct the fishplates to the same extent, and the fishplates can be longer. If an 18" fishplate is drilled at 5" centres, the end holes would be very close to the end of the fishplate.

We need the full info on this because Plug Track will need it's own 3D printed fishplates. The standard H-section locking fishplates from the trade won't work because the rail needs to slide into them. Whereas Plug Track rails are pressed home vertically. The fishplates will need to be attached to the side of the rail rather than inserted from the end. The insulator lug on the back of the fishplate will occupy only half the rail height (and can be cut off where the fishplate is on a dummy joint).

cheers,

Martin.


Hi Martin,

My experience of the 2 sizes of fishplates on the ESR is that they fit ok against the fishing surfaces of 95lbs bullhead rail, I don't recall any problems with a direct replacement of broken fishplates with the wrong pitch of holes with the 2 centre bolts, only the inability to fit one or other of the outers.

I don't think that a lot of time or resources were expended by BR on the branch in its final goods only days and the Extension from Merrifield Lane to Mendip Vale was done with recovered materials from various sites and was just cobbled together, sufficiently for the inspecting officer from whatever department it was at the time.

There's an ongoing replacement with bullhead rail and concrete sleepers from the loco shed access crossover towards Merrifield Lane, which includes replacing some very old 85lbs rail, the only 60ft lengths on the original part of the line.

I realise that this may have opened a can of worms, but can heritage be termed as being prototypical? We only used what materials we had available to us.
 
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I am amazed at the level of detail acheivable by the Sonic mini 4K. I think it is helpful to model the detail as it helps to get the big stuff right. Martin thankyou for the chair pictures. Mine arn't as good as the old track near me is still part of network rail. I have the drawings for the chair plan views but I am having to work out the cross section.

I have refined my ordinary char and made a stab at the SS chair:-
View attachment 2087
View attachment 2088
printed on a phrozen sonic mini 4K. Aqua 4K resin, XY 0.037mm Z 0.030mm.

Excellent piece of work, very impressive

Just out of interest what are the printing costs please
 
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As a further thought to the above, the 85lbs rail has/had two bolt fishplates.
@Phil O

Hi Phil,

Short 2-bolt fishplates were quite common at one time, for both BS-95R and BS-85R rails. They were 9" long (or 11.1/2" long on the Southern). It was thought that by allowing the joint sleepers to be moved closer to the rail ends, the performance of rail joints would be improved. In practice the improved support was undone by the failure of the short fishplates to hold the rail ends properly in line. So the practice of using them died out in favour of the traditional 4-bolt fishplate.

They are worth bearing in mind when Templot timber shoving, because it means the usual 24" timber spacing at rail joints can be reduced to 15" centres if it helps with the timbering layout. But bear in mind that to use them on plain track the standard sleeper spacings need to be replaced with a custom setting. 9" needs to be added to the total spacings, usually divided among the middle spacings. So for example on the 25 sleepers/60ft spacings there are 18 middle spacings of 2ft-5.1/2in centres, which would each be increased to 2ft-6in when used with short fishplates.

The 85lb BS-85R rail was intended for branch lines and sidings. In practice very little was used because such lines were usually relaid with reclaimed serviceable 95lb rail from main-line renewals. I have (so far) completely ignored it in Templot, along with the model trade -- in 4mm where is the code 72 rail or S2 and L2 chairs?

The BS-85R section is 5.15/32" high (1/4" lower than BS-95R). In 7mm/ft that scales to code 125. I'm wondering if that explains the mystery of the frequent use of code 125 bullhead by 7mm modellers, even including the S7 Society? Someone measured a bit of 85lb rail by mistake? To their credit C&L have just replaced their code 125 supplies with a proper code 131 95lb rail, but there have been complaints that it's "non-standard". Modellers are funny sometimes. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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I have saved the Phrozen details on my wish list, just an aside , I can't remember if have mentioned here that in 7mm scale I do cosmetic etched (by PPD) brass fishplates, mainly because C&L stopped doing them mainly as a result of Phil not being able to get any more because the artwork had gone AWOL. I know he does alternatives now but there are times when etched is best (and cheaper).

EMGS and Brassmasters do them in 4mm scale.
 

Attachments

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  • fishplateinner.jpg
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They recommend cutting the sockets first then the timbers, in particular this service cuts blue lines first, then green, so it would be really useful as you suggested to have a SOCKOUTL layer as well as a TIMBOUTL layer, with colour choice.
@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

Here you go, green and blue outlines adjusted for the width of the cutter kerf. No need to remove the timber extension marks:

kerf_2d_layers.png


kerf_2d_help.png


kerf_2d.png


tc_kerf_layers.png


Apologies if I have posted all this before, I'm getting in a bit of a muddle again. :(

I'm going to try to post an update soon, so that you can play with this stuff and report any problems.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Just out of interest what are the printing costs please
@Hayfield

Hi John,

Do you mean the cost of getting them printed commercially? Sorry, no idea.

If you mean the cost of making the chairs yourself, the actual resin cost is about 3 chairs for 1p (4mm scale).

But at a bare minimum you will also need:

A well-ventilated workshop area away from your living space. A bathroom + extractor fan or openable window might be suitable.

3D resin printer, around £200. The one I'm using (Elegoo Mars 2P) is currently on Amazon at £230, but there are cheaper models, offers and bundles.

A bottle of "ABS-like" liquid resin, around £35 per kg bottle. (Bundles will likely include the cheaper more brittle resin.)

A bottle of 99% isopropanol (IPA) solvent for washing the chairs. Price varies, the stuff I'm using costs £3.80 per litre.

A sunny day.

The amount of resin needed to make a chair is negligible, more resin will be wasted in the support sprues and washing than ends up in the actual chair. For the last batch of 144 chairs which I made, the software says the total cost of resin including supports was 26p. Say about 48p including washing, IPA and clean-up, which makes the chairs cost 0.33p each or 3 for a penny.

How you factor in the cost of the printer is up to you, but once you have one you will be able to make all sorts of other models and parts, not just chairs. But note that a resin printer is no good for making the filing jigs, for that you need a FDM filament printer (which is no good for making chairs below about Gauge 3).

If you don't have any sunny days in stock you can use a UV lamp instead. Cost is the same as a length of string. Or a dedicated UV curing and washing machine to match the printer costs around £100.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Martin

Thank you, I think the biggest problem is not having am outside workshop, secondly my inability of being able to use said machine. like injection moulding it seems the costs of materials are quite inexpensive. So I assume it will not be long until someone like Wayne comes along and offers a service at a reasonable cost

I may have misunderstood a previous post but the longevity of the resin seems questionable if unpainted and left in sunlight
 
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Martin

Laser cutters are capable of understanding shapes. What it means is that when presented with a nested set of rectangles they work out what is inside and outside. The result is that the cut planner can works out which bits to cut first. It also means that the laser can provide the Kerf offset. It would be worth checking whether a cutting service is automatically applying it own kerf offset to closed figures. That said it would be usefully to have the timber outline and chair socket layers on there own layers.


Here is a screen shot showing the cut layer from my recent test:-

cut layer.jpg


A little shape manipulation is required to join the spruces to the timbers.


Timbers
 
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secondly my inability of being able to use said machine

I may have misunderstood a previous post but the longevity of the resin seems questionable if unpainted and left in sunlight
@Hayfield

Hi John,

For the Templot chairs you don't need any ability to use the printer -- the files from Templot are ready to use. Just follow the instructions to make a few clicks on the computer and switch the printer on. :)

For other models, lots of modellers are making their model files available if you don't feel able to use CAD design software yourself, for example on RMweb. And there are huge libraries of other stuff online if you need a Toby jug or a new part for your vacuum cleaner. :)

Yes, resin-printed items are susceptible to UV light (as are many other plastics). They will harden and crumble over time if left in sunlight. They need to be painted to offer some protection, and preferably kept away from strong sunshine. Wayne probably mentions the need to paint his 3D-printed track bases in the instructions.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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I have descovered it is very straighforward to place my own socket outlines using the track edge and timber centre line. Is everything you mentioned in the live version of 228 or is it unrealeased?

You track sample looks good, is that 7mm scale?
@timbersgalore

Hi Timbers,

Sorry, I can't remember what is in 228a. I think I put the bare minimum for folks to experiment. I'm planning to release an utterly experimental 228b shortly.

Which track sample? This one is 4mm/ft scale (EM):

em_chaired_fdm.jpg


I have held off playing with 7mm for now because I just know I will get distracted. I expect the results to look good, but the limited FDM build area will be a challenge.

Your GWR chair is now looking much better. :) Your key might be a bit short -- prototype keys are 6" long, i.e. 2" longer than the chair jaw.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Yes socket outiles are available in 228a (the current released version) :-
First you need to switch on the experimental chairing
Real > Chairing/3D > Experimental chairing.

Then you can:-
Output > Export a file (PDF, PNG, EMF, DXF, STL.....
Click on the [Create DXF/STL] button in the Export CAD file box.
Leave it as 2-D DXF , click on [timbers only] button
change some other parameters you might want for instance the [chair socket fit] button brings up:-
1631109775716.png

This screen capture shows the defaults.
I used the "socket side clearance" & set it to minus 0.25 to reduce the standard socket width of 2mm to 1.5mm.
(but in reality as the laser cutting service had a kerf of 0.2mm, this actually made the true (as cut) socket width 1.7mm.

Then when you click on the green [export DXF/STL file] box/button in bottom left, the resultant .DXF file has a layer named TIMBOUTL which contains the lines for both timbers and sockets.

I then just opened the .DXF file directly with Inkscape (because thats what I had available), added a new layer called SOCKOUTL and then selected all the sockets in the layer TIMBOUTL and MOVED them to the layer SOCKOUTL.

Steve
 
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Martin/ John

Amazon has a deal on at the moment for the Elegoo Mars 2P and a wash/ cure unit. I forget the exact price but it's a lot cheaper than buying both separately. I've no idea whether the 'cure/ wash cabinet' is better than a UV lamp and cleaning materials.

Derek
 
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@timbersgalore @Steve_Cornford

Hi Timbers,

I have moved your post to a new separate topic because what you are doing is not Plug Track -- the new topic is here:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/laser-cutting-from-dxf-file-export.273/

I desperately want this topic to be about Plug Track only -- folks are so quick to get the wrong end of the stick that it's a constant battle of wits to keep topics on course and prevent confusion. Otherwise it takes hours of my time to unsort the confusion and explain everything, over and over again.

In Plug Track the chairs are slid onto the prepared rail first, one at a time, and the chaired rail is then pressed vertically into the timbering base. If you fit the chairs into the timbers first, the rail must then slide endways through the chairs. Which is doable for simple formations, but impossible for any rails which contain a set bend or knuckle bend or bent check flare, or are otherwise obstructed by other rails already in place.

I can see that I'm going to have make a rubber stamp with this explanation, because time and again folks are going to assume that the rails slide into the timbering base, as in pointwork kits. I shall be explaining the difference over and over again until the end of time, just as I have been doing for 15 years now with 00-SF on RMweb. :(

Steve's idea for sockets in the trackbed is that you use separate locator plugs to locate and fix the timbers to the trackbed:

index.php

These are then removed when the glue has set, and the chaired rail is then pressed into the timbers. This avoids the need for any sprues or webbing between the timbers to align them.

I'm still in two minds about this, because the gauging and rail alignment is set by the chairs and timbers, so the sockets in the trackbed will need to be cut with the same precision as the sockets in the timbers. I can imagine therefore that it will need 2 sublayers to work -- the usual soft cork or balsa trackbed, and then a solid layer of the same material as the timbers, containing the additional sockets. With the risk of warping and distortion as yet untried.

p.s. the excessive bottom taper on the locator plugs in the above screenshot has been removed in 228b.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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The chairs I produce ( using an Elegoo Mars 2 pro, arriving in next 3 hours) will have longer pegs so that they go through the timbers and into the trackbed layer.
@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

If you do that it will not be Plug Track because you will be sliding the rail through the chairs afterwards -- see my previous post.

As you previously explained it, you wanted to use separate removable locator plugs to fix the timbers to the trackbed. Before adding the chaired rail.

Presumably the printer has now arrived -- if you chose it based on my comments I hope you are pleased with it. It's a marvellous piece of kit. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hi Martin,
You are right, I forgot to mention that first I would use locator pegs when glueing the timbers to the trackbed.
As an experiment I plan to make the locator pegs with the baseplate on the top, then having applied glue to timbers and positioned them on the trackbed pop the whole assembly, baseboard, tracbed, timbers and locator pegs into a large vacuum clothes bag and attach a vacuum cleaner to let atmospheric pressure apply an even pressure to the whole face of the timbers.
I have used the vacuum bag trick when laminating several layers of thin plywood before to achieve very even gluing particularly on curved surfaces.
But once this is done and the locator pegs removed I assumed that it would not hurt to use longer pegs on the actual chairs for a stronger fix, however this would use more resin.
So after removing locator pegs I would thread the rail into the chairs, then plug the chairs into the sockets.

Yes box has arrived labelled Mars 2 Pro.
I did base my choice on your comments and on some other comments, especially from people who have had other makes but have added the Mars to their stable.
So thank you for all the usefull advice and tips on its use that you have detailed in your Messin with Resin topic
Just waiting for some other bits to arrive before i dare unbox it & get going.
In the meantime am learning more Templot skills and playing with some of Waynes kits.
Steve
 
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But once this is done and the locator pegs removed I assumed that it would not hurt to use longer plugs on the actual chairs for a stronger fix, however this would use more resin.
@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

Having longer plugs on the chairs will make them easier to handle when threading them onto the rail. You would also be able to use a more pronounced bottom taper on the plugs, which makes it easier to align them all over the sockets before pressing the rail home.

The short default plug depth in 228a was to allow for the option of blind sockets in the FDM timbers (which strengthens the timber and removes the need for the side flanges):

index.php


from: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...d-printing-and-2d-laser-cutting.229/post-1870

In 4mm scale some users will also want to use thin 1/32" (0.8mm) timbers matching Brook Smith riveted ply (and SMP Scaleway flexi-track). Which by itself allows for almost no bottom taper on the plugs, but if done in ply rather than FDM and combined with your socketed sub-bed it would do.

It would also be possible to combine 3D-printed timbers (with through sockets) with laser-cut sockets in a sub-bed. This would allow bunched timbers to be resin printed without side flanges or webs. Saving on the cost of the laser-cutting if you already have a resin printer.

So many options and settings! :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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I have just completed another iteration of the GWR 95 chair.

View attachment 2164
@timbersgalore

Hi Timbers,

The GWR S1 chair (for BS-95R rail) is 8" wide*, and sleepers are 10" wide. Your chair appears to be occupying the full width of the sleeper, so either the chair is too wide, or the sleepers are too narrow? Is this the result of the laser kerf on the cut sleepers?

If they were REA S1 chairs (3-screw) it would look like a length of plain track laid with all S1J joint chairs, which would be extremely unusual but just about feasible. But as far as I know the GWR didn't use any joint chairs.

*the GWR 00-Ordinary chair (for their 00 rail) is 7.1/2" wide, so the effect would be even more noticeable.

The grain effect on your sleepers is excellent, although suggests very old sleepers more likely to be seen on branch lines and yards rather than on a main running line.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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This is all now all getting very confusing. I was following this thread for interest to see what could come out of Templot but it seems now to be covering lots of different methods and opinons of building 3D printed track.

Although I don't have a 3D printer, nor the space to put one, that doesn't preclude me from getting chairs printed!
 
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This is all now all getting very confusing.
@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

I agree. Which is why I have hived off the stuff about DXF for laser cutters into a separate topic, and moved some posts about track-building methods into the methods and materials section.

This topic is about the Templot program and its Plug Track output, to create 3D-printed track without requiring any CAD design skills.

The unpainted result looks like this (this is 4mm/ft EM gauge):

index.php


The default option from Templot will be to export 3 STL files for the 3D printing.

To make Plug Track for a section of a track plan which I am calling a "timbering brick" (in my case roughly 8" square). It can't normally be a whole template because of size restrictions on FDM (filament) printers, but it may contain sections from more than one template. The bricks will clip together like Lego to create the full track plan (which is why I call them "bricks").

1. a file for FDM filament printing of the timbering base.

2. a file to create a corresponding set of plug-in chairs on a resin printer.

3. optionally a file to create rail filing and bending jigs for the required switches and crossing angles, on an FDM printer.

Resin and FDM printers are now getting quite popular among modellers, but for those without them the files could be sent to commercial 3D printing services (or to friends).

But I want to include other options for those who want them if I can. It should get a lot less confusing when I can remove the word "experimental" from the topic title and describe what actually is, rather than several ideas that I'm trying and what might be one day.

If anyone finds it too confusing the best advice would be to ignore this topic until that happy day arrives. But don't hold your breath. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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I forgot to post this.

These stabilising webbing links between adjacent templates in a brick are called "splints":

brick_splints.png

They are added manually by drawing line shapes in the background shapes. You can have as many as you like. The default size is 9" wide by 1.5" thick (scale), but can be set to whatever you want. At that thickness (0.5mm in 4mm scale) they match the timber flanges and can be hidden under the ballast. If made thicker they would need to be cut out after track-laying.

I tried to generate them automatically, but a usable algorithm proved too difficult. It needs a human eye to position them sensibly, and some experience with the printer and polymer in use.

In 3-D files all background line shapes are treated as brick splints -- they go in the BKSPLINT layer, and can be turned off there if not wanted.

Remember to save the BGS3 file! (Also for the chair support slabs, which work similarly for all background rectangle shapes.)

In 2-D files background line shapes are drawn as plain lines, in the SBGSHAPE layer (or DBGSHAPE layer if dotted lines), and can be turned off there if not wanted (no change for 20 years in that). Likewise background rectangle shapes in the same 2-D layer.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Just to add that if you export the above without the timbers, you could print this:

3d_template.png


In other words a 3D template into which resin-printed timbers, or laser-cut timbers, could be located. It could be removed from the underside of the finished pointwork in the same way as a paper template. Or if thin enough it could be left in the ballast.

If laser-cut instead, it would have to be done from a 3-D DXF, not 2-D.

If you increase the timber flange width to 12", and don't mind using more polymer, you don't need the timber web links and get this:

3d_template1.png


I'm minded to call this option a timbering "fret" and put it all in a single layer, but I'm desperate not to keep confusing people by adding more and more options.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Just a reminder that nothing in the experimental 3-D chairing is yet working as finally intended. I released it in version 228a only to allow folks to see what I'm doing and tinker about with it, not to use it for real for any actual modelling purpose. Please do not post bug reports related to anything in the 3-D chairing -- until it is finished everything in it is a bug. :)

See these posts:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...ck-file-exports-for-3d-printing.229/post-1831

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...ck-file-exports-for-3d-printing.229/post-1838

To use 228a as a normal Templot program update, please leave this setting on the default no chairing:
no_chairing.png


If you then find anything going wrong, it is a genuine bug, so please report it in the usual way. Thanks.

Please be aware that the above setting is template-specific, so if you have turned it on for any template you will need to turn it off on each one separately, or click the modify group to match function above.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Dear Martin,
Please don't regret releasing 228a into the wild.
I for one have loved tinkering with it, and in doing so proved to myself that it is practical to laser cut sockets in 1.6mm ply with a width of 1.7mm, and the process has encouraged me to learn more and more about using Templot (without experimental chairing switched on).

Also more about resin printing and laser cutting, and dare I say it, even CNC milling.

I know you are just at the start of a long journey, and that maybe there will be the odd diversion up a "disused" branch line on the way, but it has really been stimulating to spectate on your journey, so thank you for sharing your progress with us.

Steve
 
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