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TEMPLOT 3D PLUG TRACK - To get up to speed with this experimental project click here.   To watch an introductory video click here.   See the User Guide at Bexhill West.

  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed. Some of the earlier pages of this topic are now out-of-date.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.
  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.

Experimental Plug Track: 3D-printed, CNC-milled, laser-cut

Quick reply >
@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

Two months on from that and my rusty brain finally remembered that I have another excellent 3D CAD program installed here -- and it's free.

Snappily named DesignSparkMechanical from RS Components:


View attachment 4796

Download: https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/mechanical-download-and-installation

To download you need a (free) account with RS but you probably already have one for ordering screws, connecting wire and suchlike. Easy to register if not.

It is aimed at getting folks started in 3D designing and 3D printing, for engineering-type applications. It won't open DXFs from Templot, but it does open STLs from Templot, both original (usually with some warnings) and fixed, after the mesh repair service. It can integrate with the Cura slicer for FDM printing. It works only in 3D, there is no option to print conventional 2D engineering drawings in the free version*.

Unlike Fusion360 it doesn't require an internet connection while running or make you jump through hoops to prove you are not using it commercially. Even if you don't intend to do any designing, it makes a nice STL viewer. There is a detailed beginners guide and tutorial in the right-hand column on the screen.

Having remembered it, I can't think why I haven't been making more use of it, instead of the more traditional TurboCAD:




If anyone is thinking of getting a 3D printer on the strength of plug track, this is an excellent free program to make the most of the printer and get into 3D CAD design.

* the paid-for 2D version appears to have been temporarily withdrawn because of its reliance on Internet Explorer.

cheers,

Martin.

RS have today released DesignSpark Mechanical 6, which has been a long time coming. There are new paid-for versions with increased functions, but the basic program remains free.

The paid-for versions are free until the end of March, i.e. you get 2 months free.

More info and download:

https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/subscriptions-pricing-page

https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/mechanical-software

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 5768
RS have today released DesignSpark Mechanical 6, which has been a long time coming. There are new paid-for versions with increased functions, but the basic program remains free.

The paid-for versions are free until the end of March, i.e. you get 2 months free.

More info and download:

https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/subscriptions-pricing-page

https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/mechanical-software

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin,

I happened to be on the RS website placing an order when I saw your email, so went to the DesignSpark Mechanical page. The first thing I saw was “Tired of traditional CAD tools with parametric constraints?” as if they’re a bad thing! No, those constraints are what makes these tools much easier to use, and much easier to modify the design! Maybe I’m old-fashioned, or maybe I’m being spoilt using Creo Parametric, but I think I’d struggle using a 3D CAD package without parametric constraints!

I have tried Fusion360 but found it clunky and crash-prone. My only problem with Creo is that it’s only available to me (at home and work) whilst I’m with my current employer.

Cheers,
Paul
 
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@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

I still prefer TurboCAD for proper CAD work, although I don't do much of that nowadays. DSM is 3D-only, and primarily intended for those who want to create parts for 3D printing.

Unlike Fusion360 it is a normal Windows exe, doesn't require an internet connection, saves your files on your own computer, and allows free use for any purpose including commercial. Fusion360 makes you jump through hoops to prove you are not using it for any commercial purpose.

But the main reason for mentioning it here is that it is entirely free and fully functional. Unlike most free CAD software it is not a trial version or full of nag screens or with very restricted functionality. Or at least the last version wasn't. I suspect the new basic version 6 will be the same, because clearly RS regard it as a sales aid for their robotic parts and components. Likewise their electronic components for the PCB version. Hence the free commercial use.

Of course you don't need any of this for plug track, Templot does all the work. But anyone having got a 3D printer is likely to want to create more than just track on it. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

I still prefer TurboCAD for proper CAD work, although I don't do much of that nowadays. DSM is 3D-only, and primarily intended for those who want to create parts for 3D printing.

Unlike Fusion360 it is a normal Windows exe, doesn't require an internet connection, saves your files on your own computer, and allows free use for any purpose including commercial. Fusion360 makes you jump through hoops to prove you are not using it for any commercial purpose.

But the main reason for mentioning it here is that it is entirely free and fully functional. Unlike most free CAD software it is not a trial version or full of nag screens or with very restricted functionality. Or at least the last version wasn't. I suspect the new basic version 6 will be the same, because clearly RS regard it as a sales aid for their robotic parts and components. Likewise their electronic components for the PCB version. Hence the free commercial use.

Of course you don't need any of this for plug track, Templot does all the work. But anyone having got a 3D printer is likely to want to create more than just track on it. :)

cheers,

Martin.
Free is good! Allowing you to keep your own files is good! I will give it a go some time. At some point, hopefully not too soon, I’ll have to bite the bullet and use something other than Creo. Incidentally, Cura also requires an internet connection to work, which means that could also be taken away at a moment’s notice.

Cheers,
Paul
 
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Printed this cupola on the Mars 2 Pro resin printer as a change from PlugTrack components:-
20230116_103536.jpg
From a thingiverse STL download, I used chitubox option to hollow it out as I think it was designed for FDM printing really.
Following that it reduced the predicted weight & resin usage, but it still seemed pretty heavy. I deduced that it must contain uncured resin, so having drilled a hole top & bottom an awful lot of resin drained out! Much lighter now!

20230119_102249.jpg

Now with the scalescenes printed overlays attached. It's for the large scalescenes station.

Just need some kind of finial now.
Steve
edited for typos etc
 
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Last edited:
.
And another one:

loose_slide_option.png


IF (important IF) ALL the other stock-rail chairs are loose-jaw outers, it's not strictly necessary for the slide chairs to have loose jaws. That's because the stock rail will be added after the chairs, and can be flexed under the slide chair jaws where there is no opposite inner jaw. Which means it becomes optional to do this -- they can be solid chairs if preferred:

index.php


index.php



So they get their own separate tickbox. :)

Soon there won't be space for any more tickboxes, and I shall have to redesign the whole thing. I've been putting that off because it will be a lot of work. Hopefully it will last for at least one more update release.

Martin.
 
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message ref: 5774
RS have today released DesignSpark Mechanical 6, which has been a long time coming. There are new paid-for versions with increased functions, but the basic program remains free.

The paid-for versions are free until the end of March, i.e. you get 2 months free.

More info and download:

https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/subscriptions-pricing-page

https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/mechanical-software

cheers,

Martin.
.
Having now tried DSM 6 there is a disappointing change. Some features which were previously free have been moved to the paid-for versions only.

Previously DSM 5 was free, with paid-for add-on modules available if required. Unfortunately DSM 5 is no longer available for download. However, if you downloaded it when I posted about it previously -- do not uninstall it if upgrading to DSM 6, despite what the web site says. Both versions can be on your computer at the same time and work fine.

The DSM 5 add-ons have now been discontinued and merged into separate versions of DSM 6.

For us the most significant change is that the STL import is no longer available in the free "Explorer" version. Which is a nuisance if you want to modify an existing design, such as the STL files created by Templot. It's not really relevant if you are creating new designs from scratch.

On the other hand if you go for the paid-for "Creator" version (£10 per month) you not only get the STL import, but also DXF import and lots of other extra features.

(There is also a more expensive "Engineer" version, but DO NOT get this, because there is no practical difference between Creator and Engineer for DesignSpark Mechanical, the differences apply only to DesignSpark PCB for electronic circuit design.)

Because we want to work with files imported from Templot, I have gone ahead and used the Templot funds to subscribe to the Creator version. It's free for the next 2 months, so I can cancel the subscription at the end of March if I'm not happy with it.

I could of course do all the same things in TurboCAD, but I want to have the same functionality here that Templot users are likely to be using, so that I can test the Templot output and answer questions about it.

• Finally, after all that waffle, I can get to the point. If you have the free DSM 6 Explorer version, and want to import STL files from Templot (or elsewhere), I can provide a conversion service to a file format which will import into DSM 6. Just attach your STL files here, and I will convert them to RSDOCX files. Likewise I can run them through my copy of the Formware STL mesh fixer if the online service is timing out.

Just to add again, you don't need any of this DSM stuff for plug track, Templot does it all for you. If you are not interested in CAD you can ignore all this. But having got a 3D printer, you might want to make other models too.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 5780
.
Just to test that, here is a DSM 6 file, containing a few chairs from Templot.

If you have any version of DSM 6 you should be able to open it?

Martin.
 

Attachments

  • test_dsm6_fixed.rsdocx
    1.9 MB · Views: 64
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message ref: 5781
.
We have a new chair:
sc_chair.png

This chair does not exist in the REA designs, it is entirely fictional. An ordinary single-rail chair with 4 screws. I have called it an SC chair.

The REA ordinary chairs have 3 screws. All the special switch and crossing chairs have 4 screws, but the ordinary chairs have only 3. I have created this fictional 4-screw chair so that the component parts can be used in creating the special chairs.

It is however possible to make some of these SC chairs if you wish, with or without loose outer jaws:

use_sc_chairs.png


which would make sense only for plain track templates. Such chairs might be useful to represent some non-REA pre-grouping chairs which had 4 fixings (although not usually all 4 were actual screws).

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 5812
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message ref: 5863
.
I'm not happy. Tempted to scrap the whole project. I knew this would happen:

https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/threads/s7-track-construction-question.11381/post-268929

https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/threads/s7-track-construction-question.11381/post-269017

That image is now in Google and indexed for 100 years. Fortunately not the larger version which is visible only to logged-in members of Western Thunder.

Martin.
Hi Martin,

Unfortunately people who won't read the instructions, even if it's in bold red writing and highlighted for them, are a fact of life in this hobby (and many others).

It seems the chap who created that thread is new to turnout construction so I'd chalk this one up to the ignorance often brought on by stepping into a quite technical field and stumbling around to find one's feet. I know I'm still doing the same thing.

We're all very lucky to have you producing a complex tool for free so I can't make any demands, but I would urge you not to be disheartened by the eternal human struggle to get end users to RTFM.

-James
 
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message ref: 5864
With the greatest respect to those in the thread, it looks like the blind leading the blind

I think if you go back to some of my own early writings I made similar mistakes and at times some of the replies on my threads by some others are completely wrong. The good thing is they are soon forgotten
 
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message ref: 5865
.
I'm not happy. Tempted to scrap the whole project. I knew this would happen:

https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/threads/s7-track-construction-question.11381/post-268929

https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/threads/s7-track-construction-question.11381/post-269017

That image is now in Google and indexed for 100 years. Fortunately not the larger version which is visible only to logged-in members of Western Thunder.

Martin.
Hi Martin,

It’s so disappointing to see this, and it’s clear that the contributors have neither read the warning nor the topic here. Are any even signed up here?

How feasible would it be to “lock” the experimental stuff, only unlockable with a release code in much the same way as the original Templot? To get a release code, a user would have to demonstrate that they understand the nature of this project, and be willing to participate in the experiment.

I also wonder if, in that very visible warning, that you could also emphasise that anyone continuing past the warning is helping you with the experiment. Still the problem of how to make them actually read it though.

It’ll be very disappointing if you were to pull the plug(track). I really do think the only way to preserve sanity is to not have it in the general release, but that in itself would be a faff to manage. If only people would read the warning that needs to be clicked past - they can’t say they haven’t seen it.

Cheers,
Paul
 
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message ref: 5867
@Paul Boyd

Thanks all. Sorry about the rush of blood. I put an egg on to boil and calmed down. I should have had it before posting. :)

I did think about releasing a separate development version of Templot for the plug track experiments, restricted to users who were a bit more experienced and understood what the word "experimental" means. But it makes a lot more work to have two versions on the go, and explaining it over and over again to folks who haven't read the relevant words on their computer screen.

For the next program update I will make the message appear during start-up -- which will be extremely annoying for everyone else, but it is only one extra click.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 5868
Hello Martin,
Whatever you do there will always be someone who spoils your party. Unfortunately that is human nature.
I am sure the overwhelming majority of us whom see use and follow your unparalleled efforts in this area of modelling appreciate it.
Thank you.
Best wishes.
Trevor.
 
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message ref: 5872
Leaving aside any discussion about the physics of 3D printing etc. what is the current state of plug track development in the latest templot

Can I “ assume “ for simple crossings and Dismobds etc thug tbd Timbering and chair outputs are suitable assuming you know what you’re doing with 3D and or laser cutting etc

Where are the current limits ? Are certain track configs unsuitable. Will templot generate slide chairs etc ?
 
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message ref: 5878
@Junctionmad

Hi David,

At this stage you shouldn't "assume" anything at all. "Experimental" means nothing is finalised and anything might change at any time. The whole object of conducting an experiment is to find out what works, what doesn't, and what works best. Until the experiment reaches some sort of conclusion the plug track is not really ready to be used in anger on an actual layout. You can do that if you wish of course, but you shouldn't be surprised if parts made with one Templot update are not compatible, or even doable, in a subsequent update. I'm releasing it in this ever-changing experimental form so that you can tinker with it and report your results, which is valuable feedback for which I'm extremely grateful. It's been great to see what others have done with it -- it's encouraged me to keep going. :)

Some things can reasonably be assumed. For example anything which works in one scale, gauge, size or radius should work in any other scale, gauge, size or radius -- within the limits of your printer or miller, of course. Except the rail filing jigs and the tweezer tips which are currently only for 4mm/ft scale and even more experimental than the rest.

With the current Templot update 236d you can get as far as this, and no further:

index.php



chairing_236d.png


All chairing is currently to REA bullhead designs. There is nothing yet for GWR or pre-grouping designs or anything for flat-bottom. All rail is vertical -- Templot plug track does not and will not support canted rail. The chairing can be set to fit any model bullhead rail section.

Plain track at A can have all S1 chairs, or all L1 bridge chairs (for waybeams), or if you set the sleeper width to 12" all S1J joint chairs, as the joint sleeper at B.

Currently done chairs are:

S1 ordinary chairs
S1J joint chairs
P slide chairs, switch opening adjustable for different track standards
1P, 2P switch heel slide chairs for REA switches A..D only
3P..11P switch heel block chairs for all REA switches A..F
L1 bridge chairs

All chairs can be made with separate loose outer jaws if wanted, or as solid jaws. EXCEPT the switch heel chairs at C. In 236d those are possible only with solid jaws and the chairs are in 2 separate parts, with separate sockets, one on each rail:

index.php


That will CHANGE in the next update -- the switch heel chairs will be a single chair and socket, with the option of loose jaws. This means switch heel chairs and timbering from the next program update will be incompatible with any heel chairs or timbering made from the current or previous program updates. If you are using them you need to make all you need, or at least export the files for them, before updating.

I'm currently working on the chairs for check rails, which I'm hoping will be possible in the next program update, and hopefully some improved tweezer tips for any scale. After that I shall be working on the chairs for V-crossings, but I can't say when they will be ready, hopefully before this summer. Chairs for K-crossings, slips, etc., are still in the sunny uplands far away. :)

Likewise the 1P and 2P heel chairs for switches E and F. You can make such switches now, but those two chairs will be unprototypical.

Currently done track furniture is:

soleplate:
index.php



To discuss all this in greater detail, why not join in one of the Zoom meetings? Next one is this Wednesday at 8pm.

For the full chapter and verse on plug track, see this long topic:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/229/

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 5882
I fully understand it’s “ experimental “ what I’m trying to understand is what is usable I V in
@Junctionmad

Hi David,

At this stage you shouldn't "assume" anything at all. "Experimental" means nothing is finalised and anything might change at any time. The whole object of conducting an experiment is to find out what works, what doesn't, and what works best. Until the experiment reaches some sort of conclusion the plug track is not really ready to be used in anger on an actual layout. You can do that if you wish of course, but you shouldn't be surprised if parts made with one Templot update are not compatible, or even doable, in a subsequent update. I'm releasing it in this ever-changing experimental form so that you can tinker with it and report your results, which is valuable feedback for which I'm extremely grateful. It's been great to see what others have done with it -- it's encouraged me to keep going. :)

Some things can reasonably be assumed. For example anything which works in one scale, gauge, size or radius should work in any other scale, gauge, size or radius -- within the limits of your printer or miller, of course. Except the rail filing jigs and the tweezer tips which are currently only for 4mm/ft scale and even more experimental than the rest.

With the current Templot update 236d you can get as far as this, and no further:

index.php



View attachment 5030

All chairing is currently to REA bullhead designs. There is nothing yet for GWR or pre-grouping designs or anything for flat-bottom. All rail is vertical -- Templot plug track does not and will not support canted rail. The chairing can be set to fit any model bullhead rail section.

Plain track at A can have all S1 chairs, or all L1 bridge chairs (for waybeams), or if you set the sleeper width to 12" all S1J joint chairs, as the joint sleeper at B.

Currently done chairs are:

S1 ordinary chairs
S1J joint chairs
P slide chairs, switch opening adjustable for different track standards
1P, 2P switch heel slide chairs for REA switches A..D only
3P..11P switch heel block chairs for all REA switches A..F
L1 bridge chairs

All chairs can be made with separate loose outer jaws if wanted, or as solid jaws. EXCEPT the switch heel chairs at C. In 236d those are possible only with solid jaws and the chairs are in 2 separate parts, with separate sockets, one on each rail:

index.php


That will CHANGE in the next update -- the switch heel chairs will be a single chair and socket, with the option of loose jaws. This means switch heel chairs and timbering from the next program update will be incompatible with any heel chairs or timbering made from the current or previous program updates. If you are using them you need to make all you need, or at least export the files for them, before updating.

I'm currently working on the chairs for check rails, which I'm hoping will be possible in the next program update, and hopefully some improved tweezer tips for any scale. After that I shall be working on the chairs for V-crossings, but I can't say when they will be ready, hopefully before this summer. Chairs for K-crossings, slips, etc., are still in the sunny uplands far away. :)

Likewise the 1P and 2P heel chairs for switches E and F. You can make such switches now, but those two chairs will be unprototypical.

Currently done track furniture is:

soleplate:
index.php



To discuss all this in greater detail, why not join in one of the Zoom meetings? Next one is this Wednesday at 8pm.

For the full chapter and verse on plug track, see this long topic:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/229/

cheers,

Martin.
im in the middle of cancer treatment so if I can I will join
 
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message ref: 5888
.
Having established that the loose jaws idea does actually work, and is quite pleasing to do, several other ideas come to mind after a boiled egg. :)

For example, instead of resin printing individual chairs, we might print a full set of chairs for each timber on a thin timber surface layer:
timber_skin.png

pro:

Easier to handle and faster assembly.
Timber tops can be detailed with square corners, splits, cracks and sawmill marks.
FDM-printed timbering bases don't need a smooth top surface or any sanding, for much faster printing and preparation.
Less risk of getting the chairs muddled up.
Can be bunched together on the small 3D build plate, unlike resin printing a full timber base.

con:

Costs a bit more for the resin.
Less interchangeability between templates.
Difficult to remove an individual chair if repairs needed at a later time.
Some thought needed for the printing supports.
Will need close matching of shrinkage settings between resin and FDM printing. Quite a bit of trial and error likely to be needed there.
Laminated differing materials night cause timber to curl with thermal expansion/contraction. Testing needed.

pro/con:

For bash-fit the surface layer needs to be thin enough to flex as each chair is pressed home, although with multiple plugs in play the plug fit can be a bit looser. But a glued construction might be preferable -- there is less risk of excess adhesive being visible or difficult to remove than with individual chairs. We still need a good depth of plug and timbering base for the loose jaws to work.

Could be done with solid jaws for those who prefer to slide the rails into place. In that case the plug and timbering depths could be much thinner for glued construction.



Just another idea in the mix. It can actually be done now in 236d by changing the settings accordingly, it doesn't need any new functions, although I can see that some changes would be a help in providing the printing supports, or avoiding need for them.

I ought to have tried actually printing this idea before posting, but I'm a bit busy with other stuff at present. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 5945
I've been holding off from doing anything more with this because I'm waiting to order an Elegoo Neptune 3 Max, which are still not in stock in Amazon ES. However this little piece of trackbase that I printed on my Saturn 2 over a month ago is still perfectly flat, so I'm wondering if I even need to get an FDM printer? The Saturn 2 has a 219mm x 123mm x 250mm build volume, so I could print 20cm lengths of trackbase fairly comfortably. I may start having a play around with this next week.

IMG_20230218_120144014.jpg


I have to say though, this 3D printing lark is a massive distraction! I've printed a whole bunch of little miniatures from Lord Of The Rings, plus a huge Giant War Elephant, just to see if it was possible, and now I've started on a 1/48 Millennium Falcon...

Must refocus back on trains, I have two commission builds to get on with! Cheers, Nick
 
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message ref: 5949
.
Having established that the loose jaws idea does actually work, and is quite pleasing to do, several other ideas come to mind after a boiled egg. :)

For example, instead of resin printing individual chairs, we might print a full set of chairs for each timber on a thin timber surface layer:
View attachment 5092
pro:

Easier to handle and faster assembly.
Timber tops can be detailed with square corners, splits, cracks and sawmill marks.
FDM-printed timbering bases don't need a smooth top surface or any sanding, for much faster printing.
Less risk of getting the chairs muddled up.
Can be bunched together on the small 3D build plate, unlike resin printing a full timber base.

con:

Costs a bit more for the resin.
Less interchangeability between templates.
Difficult to remove an individual chair if repairs needed at a later time.
Some thought needed for the printing supports.
Will need close matching of shrinkage settings between resin and FDM printing. Quite a bit of trial and error likely to be needed there.

pro/con:

For bash-fit the surface layer needs to be thin enough to flex as each chair is pressed home, although with multiple plugs in play the plug fit can be a bit looser. But a glued construction might be preferable -- there is less risk of excess adhesive being visible or difficult to remove than with individual chairs. We still need a good depth of plug and timbering base for the loose jaws to work.

Could be done with solid jaws for those who prefer to slide the rails into place. In that case the plug and timbering depths could be much thinner for glued construction.



Just another idea in the mix. It can actually be done now in 236d by changing the settings accordingly, it doesn't need any new functions, although I can see that some changes would be a help in providing the printing supports.

I ought to have tried actually printing this idea before posting, but I'm a bit busy with other stuff at present. :)

cheers,

Martin.
I quite like that idea, not that I have a resin printer (yet?).
 
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message ref: 5950
I quite like that idea, not that I have a resin printer (yet?).
@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

I stumbled across this a few days ago -- any interest? https://www.chris-draw.com/009.html

For the timber surface idea, if the cross-section looked something like this:

timber_skin1.png


there would be minimal need for additional printing supports - just a thin break-off wall along the centre-line. The void can be left empty for bash-fit, or filled with adhesive for glued construction.

Alternatively, the entire timber could be resin, without individual plugs, and the FDM base then becomes a 3D template into which the timbers are clipped/slotted.

I will look to add some such options for the next update -- it's taken a while to dawn on me, but the loose jaws option does mean we can go back to first principles if we wish, and still preserve the essential vertical rail assembly, rather than kit-style slide-in rails.

More tick-boxes. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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so I'm wondering if I even need to get an FDM printer? The Saturn 2 has a 219mm x 123mm x 250mm build volume, so I could print 20cm lengths of trackbase fairly comfortably.
@Nick Allport

Hi Nick,

Looking good! :)

At 219mm wide that's on a par with a lot of the smaller FDM printers, although the Y dimension is a lot less. Just to see how it looks I set the grid to 219mm x 123mm:

saturn_build_area.png


That's a B-7 curved crossover at 7ft-way on 5ft radius in EM.

As you can see it would need to be done in 3 timbering bricks. And so it would on my Neptune 2S FDM printer (230mm x 230mm).

The difference being that once set going I can walk away and leave the Neptune to itself while I get on with something else. Whereas resin printing requires a lot more hands-on work for the washing and curing of each section. On the other hand I still have to print the chairs, whereas your chairs could be done integral with the timbers.

Also to think about -- for the cost of a Saturn, you could have the little Mars resin printer and a small FDM printer.

Decisions, decisions. :)

This seems to be the latest 8K printer making waves:


Although with import fees from the USA it is a lot more expensive than a Saturn (also 8K).

(How they expect to sell any while snarling at a customer like that is a mystery to me. :confused: )

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hi Martin

So many ideas! I wasn't expecting to see a snarling green thing jumping out of the screen at me though :)

I suppose the ideal situation would be the whole track base including chairs to be printed in resin, but affordable printers seem to have a tiny print area. Your suggestion of printing full depth timbers, with chairs ready for loose jaws, slotting into a FDM would seem to be a good compromise, I think. I'm pretty sure that a few more tick boxes will appear on the export dialogue box!

Cheers,
Paul
 
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message ref: 5953
Your suggestion of printing full depth timbers, with chairs ready for loose jaws, slotting into a FDM would seem to be a good compromise, I think. I'm pretty sure that a few more tick boxes will appear on the export dialogue box!
@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

Yes. :)

An issue with full-depth timbers is how to support them. I don't think they will work printed directly on the build plate. We could deal with the possible "elephant's foot" by putting a bottom recess round them (as for the connector clips). But that still leaves the problem of flushing through the pin slots if they go in the washer while still on the build plate. Also the timber thickness would be affected by the levelling of the build plate.

My thinking is to replace the flat raft with a "bed of nails" raft on which the bunched timbers could be placed at random. But I'm not clear how easily they could be removed from it after printing. The "nails" might need to be sawn through or cut with a slitting disc. That raises health issues with the resin dust.

I'm wondering if the timbers could be cut from the "nails" all in one go after washing while they are still soft and uncured on the build plate, with a "cheese wire" style of cutter. But not sure the resin would be soft enough for that -- lots of experimenting with the diameter and spacing of the "nails" needed. The loose timbers could then be cured in a wire basket or some such on the turntable.

Next into the 3D printing den after the glass marbles is:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Apollo-Rb-Cheese-Board-Wire/dp/B002HDZ5OO/

A holder for the rafts or build plate might be needed -- amazingly useful things, FDM printers. :)

Martin.
 
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message ref: 5954
Hi Martin, Great idea, I have been off line for a few months due to work pressures etc. but, this is definitely something I'm going to pursue. I had previously 3D resin printed a scissor crossing in sections and slid rail through at convenient positions but, this proved more difficult than expected and quite messy. I think Your loose jaw system is a much better idea and I may try the resin/fdm timber mix as well.
Unfortunately, I was previously unsuccessful in importing Templot 3d dxf files into either SolidWorks or Fusion 360. So I used Templot 2d dxf for timbers/sockets to created 3D timbers in Fusion. I then created my own chairs (very time consuming) and added them individually to the timbers within Fusion then 3D resin printed sections as per screenshot below.
I would really like to use the comprehensive 3D export features you have developed but, can not seem to utilise the 3d dxf's exported from Templot. I wonder whether anyone else has been experiencing this?
stl files are imported ok (see below). I will keep trying but, any advise/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

1676791993026.png


1676792317225.png


1676791993026.png 1676792317225.png
 
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I would really like to use the comprehensive 3D export features you have developed but, can not seem to utilise the 3d dxf's exported from Templot. I wonder whether anyone else has been experiencing this?
@Terry Downes

Hi Terry,

Looking good! :)

As you have probably found, sliding rails into position is next to impossible in complex formations. You can't have bends in the rail, which you need for wing rail knuckles, K-crossings, check rails, etc., and everything gets in the way of everything else. That was my initial reason for developing the plug track, where the rails are always installed vertically from above.



P.S. JUST TO EXPLAIN for everyone to avoid confusion -- YOU DON'T NEED any of what follows for Plug Track, the files from Templot are ready to use on the 3D printer. You don't need any CAD programs or CAD skills.



As so often Terry, it seems I use different software from everyone else! I don't know SolidWorks and I found Fusion360 extremely difficult -- it went straight out of the window!

But I have no problems importing Templot's DXFs into

TurboCad:
index.php

and/or DesignSpark Mechanical - Creator edition:

dsm_import.png


I suggest you have a look at DSM -- it's from RS and derived from Ansys/SpaceClaim:

https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/subscriptions-pricing-page

https://www.ansys.com/en-gb/products/3d-design/ansys-spaceclaim

To import DXFs you need the Creator edition -- the free Explorer edition doesn't import DXF. I'm happy to convert a DXF into DSM's file format for you if you want to try it in the Explorer edition.

p.s. don't bother with the Engineer edition, the only significant differences are in the electronics PCB version of DesignSpark.




cheers,

Martin.
 
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@Terry Downes

p.s. Terry,

Looking at your STL rendering, did you miss out the mesh fix? STL files from Templot need to be fixed via this free online service before 3D printing:

https://www.formware.co/onlinestlrepair

There is a link on the export dialog:

stl_mesh_fix.png


I also have a paid-for local copy of the Formware fixer. If your file(s) are too large and time out on the online tool, I'm happy to fix them for you. Just post your STL in this topic and I will post the fixed version back.

Everything is in a bit of a tangle because some users such as yourself are eager to start using the plug track designs while I am still developing them and they are unfinished. I'm happy for you to do that, but you must understand that some bits are still only stuck on with blue-tack and might drop off at any moment. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 5960
@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

Yes. :)

An issue with full-depth timbers is how to support them. I don't think they will work printed directly on the build plate. We could deal with the possible "elephant's foot" by putting a bottom recess round them (as for the connector clips). But that still leaves the problem of flushing through the pin slots if they go in the washer while still on the build plate. Also the timber thickness would be affected by the levelling of the build plate.

My thinking is to replace the flat raft with a "bed of nails" raft on which the bunched timbers could be placed at random. But I'm not clear how easily they could be removed from it after printing. The "nails" might need to be sawn through or cut with a slitting disc. That raises health issues with the resin dust.

I'm wondering if the timbers could be cut from the "nails" all in one go after washing while they are still soft and uncured on the build plate, with a "cheese wire" style of cutter. But not sure the resin would be soft enough for that -- lots of experimenting with the diameter and spacing of the "nails" needed. The loose timbers could then be cured in a wire basket or some such on the turntable.

Next into the 3D printing den after the glass marbles is:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Apollo-Rb-Cheese-Board-Wire/dp/B002HDZ5OO/

A holder for the rafts or build plate might be needed -- amazingly useful things, FDM printers. :)

Martin.
Hi Martin

I don't have any experience of resin printing, but what you say makes sense. I'm still thinking in FDM terms where washing the timbers wouldn't be an issue! The cheese wire cutter sounds drastic, but it ought to work with a suitable holder! Am I right in thinking that the "nails" just need to be the absolute minimum to hold the weight of the raft and keep it flat? Again, I'm thinking of the difficulty in removing support structures with FDM printing.

I wasn't going to buy an FDM printer because of lack of space, but I'm glad I did - amazingly useful things :)

(Incidentally, just building my first 4n27 turnout to see how it looks. If I'm happy, another whole load of timber bricks will be needed for the BH sections of track!)

Cheers,
Paul
 
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message ref: 5961
Am I right in thinking that the "nails" just need to be the absolute minimum to hold the weight of the raft and keep it flat?
@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

Resin printing is done upside down. The so-called "supports" don't actually support anything. What they do is to pull the part up off the clear FEP film in the bottom of the tank (to which it tends to stick). They are actually in tension, and should properly be called "hangers", but because all design and slicing work is done the normal way up, they are called "supports" to match FDM design work done in the same software. It's no wonder this 3D stuff can do yer ed in. :)

Essentially, you can't have a large horizontal overhang in the design, which is why so many 3D resin prints are done tipped up at an angle, so that no faces are horizontal. Each layer is only 2 thou thick, so when the printer reaches a large horizontal overhang, you suddenly have a large 2 thou thick first wafer of cured resin, to be pulled off the FEP only by means of the edge where it is attached to the part already printed. The hangers/supports are added across it to assist in pulling it up off the FEP. As it gets thicker with subsequent layers they are less needed, but still help to prevent the soft part from distorting.

A failed overhang doesn't only wreck the printed part as it would in FDM. It also leaves a bit of broken-off resin stuck to the FEP film in the bottom of the tank. Which will have received more UV from subsequent layers and become very firmly stuck. It has to be removed before the next print job can be done, otherwise that job will be wrecked too, and it might even cause the build plate to damage the FEP or even the UV screen on its first layer next time. With every print it's important to check that no parts are missing from it, because those parts are still in the tank and likely stuck to the FEP.

All will become clear if when you get your resin printer. :)

I think my "bed of nails" idea can have nails about 0.4mm tip diameter at about 1.0mm centres. That leaves a space 0.6mm between them which based on the results with the chair base edges should print ok. While leaving enough clear space around the nails for flushing IPA through in the washer if a timber happens to get placed on the "bed of nails" with a pin slot directly over a nail (slots are 1.2mm x 0.6mm in 4mm/ft scale). We shall see.

Cheese slicer arrived a couple of hours ago -- looks nicely made for the cost. I'm hopeful it will work, but if not the kitchen will be getting an Easter present.

Looking forward to seeing your 4n27 track. I haven't yet added it to the Templot pre-sets because I made a rule not to include n.g. stuff in the list (to preserve my sanity). But maybe I should make an exception?

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 5962
@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

Resin printing is done upside down. The so-called "supports" don't actually support anything. What they do is to pull the part up off the clear FEP film in the bottom of the tank (to which it tends to stick). They are actually in tension, and should properly be called "hangers", but because all design and slicing work is done the normal way up, they are called "supports" to match FDM design work done in the same software. It's no wonder this 3D stuff can do yer ed in. :)

Essentially, you can't have a large horizontal overhang in the design, which is why so many 3D resin prints are done tipped up at an angle, so that no faces are horizontal. Each layer is only 2 thou thick, so when the printer reaches a large horizontal overhang, you suddenly have a large 2 thou thick first wafer of cured resin, to be pulled off the FEP only by means of the edge where it is attached to the part already printed. The hangers/supports are added across it to assist in pulling it up off the FEP. As it gets thicker with subsequent layers they are less needed, but still help to prevent the soft part from distorting.

A failed overhang doesn't only wreck the printed part as it would in FDM. It also leaves a bit of broken-off resin stuck to the FEP film in the bottom of the tank. Which will have received more UV from subsequent layers and become very firmly stuck. It has to be removed before the next print job can be done, otherwise that job will be wrecked too, and it might even cause the build plate to damage the FEP or even the UV screen on its first layer next time. With every print it's important to check that no parts are missing from it, because those parts are still in the tank and likely stuck to the FEP.

All will become clear if when you get your resin printer. :)

I think my "bed of nails" idea can have nails about 0.4mm tip diameter at about 1.0mm centres. That leaves a space 0.6mm between them which based on the results with the chair base edges should print ok. While leaving enough clear space around the nails for flushing IPA through in the washer if a timber happens to get placed on the "bed of nails" with a pin slot directly over a nail (slots are 1.2mm x 0.6mm in 4mm/ft scale). We shall see.

Cheese slicer arrived a couple of hours ago -- looks nicely made for the cost. I'm hopeful it will work, but if not the kitchen will be getting an Easter present.

Looking forward to seeing your 4n27 track. I haven't yet added it to the Templot pre-sets because I made a rule not to include n.g. stuff in the list (to preserve my sanity). But maybe I should make an exception?

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin

Now I understand! I have seen that many resin prints seem to be at a jaunty angle so now I know why. I had a look at the cheese wire cutter you linked to, oddly with a view to using it for cutting cheese :) The reviews are not good...

Regarding 4n27 - let's see how it goes! it would be good to have a usable "009"-ish pre-set in the list, but a lot of out-of-the-box 009 wouldn't run on it because of a too-narrow back to back so I guess 4n27 wouldn't be used much. At least, some axles of my Heljan L&B loco would be OK, but not others :confused: I'll report progress on 4n27 on my "mid-life crisis" topic!

Cheers,
Paul
 
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message ref: 5963
Hi Martin,
I am hoping that you will retain the option to print chairs and timbers separately, as my preference is to be able to paint the chairs and timbers with different colours and it makes life easier if that is done before assembly.

As far as bed fltness is concerned is that really an issue? Do we worry about the flatness of the trackbed to those tolerances?
How flat are the components of out trackbed, plywood, layer of glue, cork, then another layer of glue for the timbers?
Just being a devils advocate here!

What you have produced so far has been very practical, and relatively easy to assemble, even the separate jaws. I am really looking forward to being able to print some check chairs the design of which you have appeared to crack.

As for the crossing chairs for a simple turnout, are there any particular designs problems that you are facing?
Appart from the reams of coding required that is!

Resin printing
I have been wondering about the possibility of speeding up the after print draining process.
After rpinting \i might try replacing the build plate knob with a suitable piece of studding, then inserting the end of the studding into an electric drill and then slowly spinning the build plate in a round plastic bowl as a home made centrifuge and let centripetal force do the rest. All this talk of marbles and cheese cutters have made my mid race.

All this written because my eggs were scrambled this morning!
Steve
 
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The reviews are not good...
@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

I noticed the reviews. But those people were all making the mistake of trying to slice cheese with it. Even the normal way of slicing a block of cheese with a junior hacksaw requires some force, so I can't see a thin 0.4mm dia wire being much good for the task. It might work ok on butter (or hard-boiled eggs).

But a thin wire is just what I wanted to cut through the printing supports, and I remain hopeful that it will work. I'm prepared for the (boiled) egg-on-face moment when it's an utter failure. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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