Experimental 3D plug track - up to version 244c

[Michael Woods]

Hi Steve, 22 Chairs....(11 per side). I apply the raft at the end when it is on my slicer.....it worked for the earlier chairs so this rail profile is the only thing that has changed.....

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Michael,

Is the mesh repair seeing 22 separate items not linked together?

Martin.

 

[Michael Woods]

possibly - good point - let me try something else.....

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Michael,
I started afresh, set gauge to S, created plain straight track with 11 sleepers.
Then used the Gauge > modify current settings > modify track gauge & set it to 8mm (this is a trick Martin showed me to get the two rows of chairs closer together on the raft.
Then added a rectangle shape to encompass the resultant chairs.
Also real > chairing > chairs on the template & set all cahirs to be solid (aka fixed ) jaws.
Then store & background.
Then DXF/STl export, set custom rail using the values you posted. then exported the STL.
Uploaded to the formware site & fixed ok.

I think the step you are missing is to add the raft

Martin has desigtned Templot so that it outputs the raft for you.
As he pointed out earlier today he is just plugging options in to the most conveneient place whilst he experiments.
However this did not take me long to perform.

Attachments box file, shape file, Stl, fixed stl

The only troule for me is that the resultant fied stl is just slightly too big for Mars 2 Pro build plate, so in S scale i would need to reduce the number of sleepers to 10 (20 chairs)
Hope this helps.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Michael Woods

Hi Michael,

That rail section is a bit chunky in head and foot, but I can't see any reason why it would be a problem:

I rather doubt that the model fish angle matches the prototype 1:2.75, it is usually steeper on model rail. Say 1:1.5 or 1:1.75

If you change it, it would make the section look a bit better with slightly less head and foot depth.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Michael Woods]

thanks martin - i have reduced the head - measured that wrong - thank you.

 

[Michael Woods]

Hi Michael,
I started afresh, set gauge to S, created plain straight track with 11 sleepers.
Then used the Gauge > modify current settings > modify track gauge & set it to 8mm (this is a trick Martin showed me to get the two rows of chairs closer together on the raft.
Then added a rectangle shape to encompass the resultant chairs.
Also real > chairing > chairs on the template & set all cahirs to be solid (aka fixed ) jaws.
Then store & background.
Then DXF/STl export, set custom rail using the values you posted. then exported the STL.
Uploaded to the formware site & fixed ok.

I think the step you are missing is to add the raft

Martin has desigtned Templot so that it outputs the raft for you.
As he pointed out earlier today he is just plugging options in to the most conveneient place whilst he experiments.
However this did not take me long to perform.

Attachments box file, shape file, Stl, fixed stl

The only troule for me is that the resultant fied stl is just slightly too big for Mars 2 Pro build plate, so in S scale i would need to reduce the number of sleepers to 10 (20 chairs)
Hope this helps.

Thanks Steve - very useful!

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Michael,
I started afresh, set gauge to S, created plain straight track with 11 sleepers.
Then used the Gauge > modify current settings > modify track gauge & set it to 8mm (this is a trick Martin showed me to get the two rows of chairs closer together on the raft.
Then added a rectangle shape to encompass the resultant chairs.
Also real > chairing > chairs on the template & set all cahirs to be solid (aka fixed ) jaws.
Then store & background.
Then DXF/STl export, set custom rail using the values you posted. then exported the STL.
Uploaded to the formware site & fixed ok.

I think the step you are missing is to add the raft

Martin has desigtned Templot so that it outputs the raft for you.
As he pointed out earlier today he is just plugging options in to the most conveneient place whilst he experiments.
However this did not take me long to perform.

Attachments box file, shape file, Stl, fixed stl

The only troule for me is that the resultant fied stl is just slightly too big for Mars 2 Pro build plate, so in S scale i would need to reduce the number of sleepers to 10 (20 chairs)
Hope this helps.

Thanks Steve.

Here is that fixed STL in TurboCAD. Looks fine to me:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Michael Woods]

Thank you both - reset the profile reducing the side of the head and followed instructions....back on printer now....lets see but feeling optimistic !

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Here is a version with loose jaw chairs & the loose jaws:-

I set gauge to 18mm, real > chairing > chairs on the template, then clicked [export all chairs with slots] button
store & background, then set gauge to 6mm then real > chairing > chairs on template (which means on the control template) then clicked [export only all loose outer jaws] button, store & background.
we now have two templates in background, one with the chairs and one with the loose jaws.
I then resized the raft to encompass all, then performed the export & fixed the file.
The idea being that you create a library of chair rafts, and note that these do not necessarily need to match (in quantity of chairs) the actual templates of your track plan that you will export as individual timber bases.

However when Templot is capable of exporting all the turnout chairs, these will not be general purpose.
For instance you will need separate sets of chairs for Left Handed B7 as opposed to right handed B7 (as I understand it from chats with Martin)

 

[Steve_Cornford]

MIchael,

Another tip.....

Once you have entered your custom rail data in the DXF dialogue box, it is worth clicking on the [save custom dat} button that also resides on that dialogue box

then next time you restart Templot and go into this dialogue box you can click on [load custom data] button to restore your S scale rail settings, it even set the custom rail radio button for you.
Saves having to re-create the S scale rail setting every time you load Templot.
STeve

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Steve_Cornford

Thanks Steve.

But don't fall into the trap of expecting everything to be in the custom settings file. It ought to be, and it will be one day, but it's one more thing that I haven't had time to keep up with.

You can see what is and isn't actually included in the SK4 file by opening it in a text editor such as Windows Notepad.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

HI Martin,
Earlier you mentioned the design of the crossing chairs. I think that it a good pragmatic approach that will allow us to get some turnouts built and tested. Worry about the fine cosmetic details later.
Also just stick bits of dialogue in where you can for now and shuffle it around at a suitable moment. Like just now for 238a when you move the chair parameters into the template from the DXF/STL export dialogue.

On that note, I did have a bit of a wobble when first going into the real > chairing > chairs on template screen.
It kept forgetting what I had clicked!
That is until I realised that I was just clicking on the red X in the top right corner!
As I could not see the ok button on my laptop screen!
Once I twigged this I clicked on the size slider in bottom right hand of trackpad & chose "smaller" & voila the [ok] button appeared on the chair dialogue screen.
Just mentioning this in case others have similar problem.

Steve

 

[Steve_Cornford]

I tested the save & load custom data for the custom rail & that seems to work ok.
Just inspected the file with notepad to see what else is there.
Regards Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

That is until I realised that I was just clicking on the red X in the top right corner!
As I could not see the ok button on my laptop screen!
Once I twigged this I clicked on the size slider in bottom right hand of trackpad & chose "smaller" & voila the [ok] button appeared on the chair dialogue screen.
Just mentioning this in case others have similar problem.

@Steve_Cornford

Thanks Steve,

I will put a duplicate OK button at the top. Are there any other places in Templot where you have the same problem? Presumably the DXF dialog doesn't fit too?

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Although the DXF dialogue did not fit, it had a slider on the right hand side that allowed access to the bits at the bottom/top.
The "chairs on template" dialogue did not have the slider.
With "smaller" selected the whole DXF dialogue box is visible,

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Steve_Cornford

Thanks Steve. I will add the slider scrollbar to the chairs dialog. It should have been there anyway, because the list will be getting a lot longer before we are done.

Do you find the "smaller" program size convenient to see and click? Is your laptop smaller than most, or do you think lots of other folks are having the same problem? With my large desktop screen I have to be careful not to get carried away and fill it up! I don't have a laptop to try things on nowadays.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

I will let you know once I have used "smaller" for a few more days, but so far it is ok.
Adding the slider, sorry I mean "scroll bar" to give it the correct name (only been semi-retired for a couple of years and already forgotten most of the jargon) would save the problem.
Think I have an average size laptop screen, so far no problem, but if it was i could plug in my desktop monitor .
So far it is fine & i use it for your zoom sessions, chitubox & any other 64-bit programs I need to run.

Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

Here you go:

The most-used buttons now at the top.

Scrollbar.

Two OK buttons.

Some new chairs -- which don't yet do anything.

Rails shown in green have loose outer jaws which are interchangeable on any template. It might be worth printing a stock of these loose jaws in advance, rather than making them at the same time as the chairs. These are the S1 , P , L1 , SC outer jaws:

S1 jaws have 2 ribs.
SC jaws have 1 rib.
L1 jaws have no rib.
P jaws have a bolt instead of a rib, and no key.

Rails shown in black have non-interchangeable loose jaws which will fit only in the chair they were created for.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Very good Martin.
Thanks for the explanation too.
Near idea of coloured fonts to denote interchangeability across templates.
Midnight oil well spent

How do you get the blue background to the tick boxes with ticks?
Is that Templot setting or a Windows setting?
Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

How do you get the blue background to the tick boxes with ticks?
Is that Templot setting or a Windows setting?

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

It's a Windows 11 change from Windows 10. Nothing to do with Templot or me.

I don't much like it -- the blue is too dark and the ticks are not bold enough. The menus have gone the other way in the latest Windows upgrade and no longer have the blue background when selected, which I don't like at all. Why can't Microsoft just leave things alone when they are working fine?

You can however get the blue and white menus back by clicking the blue bar on the left here:

which exploits a legacy setting in Delphi5.

The most infuriating change is the narrow scrollbars, which drive me nuts. I think it is all part of the change to touch-screens instead of a mouse.

It would in theory be possible to change some of this in the program manifest, but I don't know how it would respond on the many different versions of Windows in use without a lot of testing, so I tend to leave it alone. It will almost certainly change again in the next Windows upgrade, so there is no point in chasing a moving feast.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Ah that explains it.
I am running under Windows 10 pro 64-bit
Steve

 

[Michael Woods]

Martin / Steve,

Thanks for your help.....work in progress, bit more to do to make the chairs always sit 100% but this is definately the way forward (for me).

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Michael,
What do you mean by "sit"?
Do you mean chair to sleeper or rail to chair?
Are you using fixed jaw chairs or loose jaw chairs?
There seems to be a visible filament texture on the top of the sleepers compared with the sample FDM timber base that Martin king sent me.
Is that a silver setting?

It looks like you are making progress.
What is the build plate size of your FDM printer?

 

[Michael Woods]

Hi Steve,

I need to follow Martin's guidance and tune the FDM settings, if I do this I should have cleaner surfaces and that will help with the seating of the chair to sleeper. That said I am very pleased with this. The chair to rail settings also need a little more adjustment, I got fed up with printing and then finding that the rail did not fit, so I printed something that I knew would accomodate the rail and then started to adjust back.

I dont really like the resin, it is a bit thick compared to the transulcent green that I usually use. I will look around for what else is available, although I do try and stick to water washable, it makes the whole printing process so much easier.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Michael Woods

Hi Michael,

Thanks for posting the pictures.

That looks like it was printed using one of the standard FDM profile settings supplied with the printer. Which are generally good for printing a Toby Jug or whatever, but not necessarily the best if you want accurate engineering dimensions and good surface finish.

Earlier I posted a .curaprofile file containing the settings I use with eSun PLA Plus toughened PLA filament. If you use the Cura slicer and simply open that profile file in it, you should be able to print a timbering brick with good results.

For the resin printing, most of us have been using the Elegoo ABS-Like grey resin. It will be good to see what results can be achieved with other resins including water washable. Some of the standard resins may be a bit brittle for use as chairs, the ABS-Like resins have greater resilience and produce results more akin to injection-moulded parts.

I did start explaining some of the FDM slicer settings, and didn't get back to finishing it. I'm sorry about that, but I don't feel up to do any more typing today, maybe tomorrow.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Michael Woods]

Hi Martin,

I will now start to play around with your recommended settings, just happy to have something that works - I can now improve.

Michael.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Michael Woods

Hi Michael,

I have just been forced to make an emergency post on RMweb to correct your ludicrous assertion that I have designed a system using separate keys:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/179067-s-scale-3d-printed-track/?do=findComment&comment=5164536

"Emergency" because once something is on the internet it will be picked up by Google and spread within hours across numerous other forums. After which it will be impossible to retrieve and will go on being quoted for years to come. It has already had a 14-hour start on me because I didn't pick it up in time. RMweb has over 40,000 members and a great many more non-member readers. Fortunately it is in a topic about a minority interest, S scale.

I'm not going to let Templot damage my health by getting so damned stressful.

Martin.

 

[drduncan]

.
Another conundrum.

The prototype switch opening is 4.1/4".

For EM and 00-SF that's increased to 5.1/4" recommended minimum (1.75mm, thickness of a 20p coin).

Unfortunately that means a conflict with the chair screw heads:
View attachment 2667

View attachment 2670

Would you rather:

a. snip the tops off the chair screws to clear (they are very small in 4mm scale), or

b. have Templot make the chair longer than scale to suit the chosen gauge, or

c. have yet another tickbox option for that, or

d. something else.

Bear in mind for 00-SF that making the chairs longer than scale will reduce even further the distance between opposite slide chairs than is already caused by the under-scale gauge.

p.s. in the drawing I have rotated the rail to vertical.

cheers,

Martin.

I’ve been away from templot for a few years (building the layout has been a longer process than I had hoped but it’s my fault for choosing mixed gauge). As I’m reading this in May 2023 I’m probably well behind the curve, but I seem to recall that Exactoscale make/made two lengths of slide chair to get round that problem. If it’s good enough for them it’s probably good enough for most of us.

BTW, absolutely fascinating going through all this. By the nd of the week I hope I’ll be up to date. Many thanks Martin for your efforts on our behalf.

Duncan

 

[Michael Woods]

Hi Martin, thank you for the feedback. My description may have been a little bit clumsy, my appologies. What you have built here is brilliant, I am definately going to use it and hopefully others will too.

I will refrain from making anymore stressful comments.

Michael

 

[Martin Wynne]

As I’m reading this in May 2023 I’m probably well behind the curve, but I seem to recall that Exactoscale make/made two lengths of slide chair to get round that problem. If it’s good enough for them it’s probably good enough for most of us.

@drduncan

Hi Duncan,

Good to hear from you.

Yes, plug track has moved on -- the length of the slide chairs is now automatically adjusted to match the current gauge setting.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

Hi Michael,
I just read your comment, and I have to admit it made me smile, I thought I was the sole owner of clumsy comments
I totally endorse your last comment however, the system is truly brilliant, and a fantastic example of harnessing all the great leaps forward in using home purchasable modern technologies.
phil

 

[drduncan]

Yay! Got to the end….of the beginning!

A brilliant project (not product) and thanks for your perseverance and hard work.

So once I gave got through all the other things I need to do with my photon mono resin printer I will be printing out a test section and chairs. I will report back on resins and setttings.

Don’t wait up….

Duncan

 

[Cransford]

.
Another conundrum.

The prototype switch opening is 4.1/4".

For EM and 00-SF that's increased to 5.1/4" recommended minimum (1.75mm, thickness of a 20p coin).

Unfortunately that means a conflict with the chair screw heads:
View attachment 2667

View attachment 2670

Would you rather:

a. snip the tops off the chair screws to clear (they are very small in 4mm scale), or

b. have Templot make the chair longer than scale to suit the chosen gauge, or

c. have yet another tickbox option for that, or

d. something else.

Bear in mind for 00-SF that making the chairs longer than scale will reduce even further the distance between opposite slide chairs than is already caused by the under-scale gauge.

p.s. in the drawing I have rotated the rail to vertical.

cheers,

Martin.

Martin,

Apologies for the slight delay, been catching up on progress thus far.

It was a long time ago in a land far far away, but the screw head problem happened in the real world too. We used to find that by the time the S&T fitted lock stretcher and extension pieces with nuts & bolts there was an odds-on chance the inner chairscrew heads on P/PJ chairs would foul, causing much mirth and merriment. Because the soleplate was originally only drilled for P/PJ chairs the only quick solution was to remove inner chairscrews to give road back. In the longer term we had soleplates drilled for P/PJ and P1/PJ1 and had switches fitted with P1/PJ1 chairs at the toes, which gave the extra clearance by moving screw holes 2", and this became a standard option in time.

Keep up the good work, looking forward to the crossing chairs.

Paul

 

[Stephen Freeman]

I’ve been away from templot for a few years (building the layout has been a longer process than I had hoped but it’s my fault for choosing mixed gauge). As I’m reading this in May 2023 I’m probably well behind the curve, but I seem to recall that Exactoscale make/made two lengths of slide chair to get round that problem. If it’s good enough for them it’s probably good enough for most of us.

BTW, absolutely fascinating going through all this. By the nd of the week I hope I’ll be up to date. Many thanks Martin for your efforts on our behalf.

Duncan

Absolutely but I think you have to be a member of EMGS to get the 00/EM version.

 

[Martin Wynne]

the screw head problem happened in the real world too. We used to find that by the time the S&T fitted lock stretcher and extension pieces with nuts & bolts there was an odds-on chance the inner chairscrew heads on P/PJ chairs would foul,

@Cransford

Thanks Paul,

Here is an interesting detail showing something similar. The lock bar insulation packing at the left-hand end has required the tops of the chair screws to be shortened down, to prevent any contact with the bent fixing end on the lock bar (which would operate the track circuit). Compare with the screw-heads on the next chairs:

I can imagine a few choice words from the p.w. gang if they ever need to remove those screws.

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

This is the profile that I am trying to use....I have taken the instruction from previous post questions and answsers. But when I try this config and create an STL I cannot repair either in formware or other 3D print repair tools....have I missunderstood and requesting something that is geometrically impossible?

View attachment 5635

@Michael Woods

Maybe it's time to repeat this diagram from way back in this topic:

The fish angle on all prototype UK REA bullhead and jointed flat-bottom track is 1:2.75 , but on most model rail sections it is steeper at around 1:1.5 . It is better to set it too steep rather than too flat to ensure the key clears.

The fishing faces are dimensioned from their intersect on the rail section centre-line. The head and foot depths can then be derived if needed, but you don't need to enter them because Templot calculates them.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Cransford]

@Cransford

Thanks Paul,

Here is an interesting detail showing something similar. The lock bar insulation packing at the left-hand end has required the tops of the chair screws to be shortened down, to prevent any contact with the bent fixing end on the lock bar (which would operate the track circuit). Compare with the screw-heads on the next chairs:

I can imagine a few choice words from the p.w. gang if they ever need to remove those screws.

Martin.

Martin,

Nothing like the choice words with the S&T complaining about our track installation on ours about their blessed kit! Interesting fix in your picture, you live in the hope the local gang have a sharp edged box spanner. I recall doing a series of drawings which showed it was an accumulation of tolerances that caused the issue, something that happened quite a lot strangely.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Martin Wynne]

ADMIN:

This topic is a continuation from:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...ck-3d-printed-cnc-milled-laser-cut.229/latest

Some of the earlier pages in that topic are now out-of-date.

---

To allow for the wider model flangeways and deeper wheel flanges I have needed to increase the number of chair types in the V-crossings, and modify the prototype chair designations:

That's a total now of 25 different chair jaw types, which has filled the space I allocated for all the chair jaw types in the BOX file.

And we are still lacking some tickboxes to swap between slab&bracket and solid cast A chairs, and loose jaws for them.

Which means there is no existing space available for the K-crossing chairs. Which means a significant BOX file format update will be needed for the K-crossings. Which means I ought to do that now so that all the chairs can use the same updated format from the start. Which also means another version bump to 239a next time. Which means more work before I can get on with these crossing chairs. Decisions, decisions.

Martin.

 

[Phil O]

Martin,

I think you need to add a boiled egg to the "good" menu.