FDM chairs in 0 gauge - COT track

[Martin Wynne]

@AndyB @Hayfield @James Walters

Prompted by Andy's topic on RMweb, a test print of integral chairs and timbers on FDM (Neptune 4, standard 0.4mm nozzle). C&L code 131 rail.

No resin was harmed in this process.

The results are way beyond what I was expecting, and far superior to my experiments with 0 gauge on the BIBO printer 5 years ago. It's possible, just, to see that the heads of the chair screws are square, and not just blobs.

I will write some more when I've had time for a think.

Martin.

 

[James Walters]

This is superb Martin. I've been FDM printing bases non-stop over the past couple of days. I'll do some 7mm bases and chairs for Scaleforum. Hopefully I'll be able to pick up some code 131 rail at the show.
Oh, by the way, the Barry Slip turned out brilliantly - thanks for your help. I'll post a picture of it later.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

How do you print both timbers and chairs at the same time please

As there are no plugs can/do you print the timbers thinner ?

As well as code 131 is code 125 B/H supported (I have quite a few yards

This is superb Martin. I've been FDM printing bases non-stop over the past couple of days. I'll do some 7mm bases and chairs for Scaleforum. Hopefully I'll be able to pick up some code 131 rail at the show.
Oh, by the way, the Barry Slip turned out brilliantly - thanks for your help. I'll post a picture of it later.

James

If you want code 131 from C&L, I doubt if Phil will bring any. If you pre-order to pick up at the show you stand a better chance of getting some

John

 

[Martin Wynne]

Martin

How do you print both timbers and chairs at the same time please

As there are no plugs can/do you print the timbers thinner ?

As well as code 131 is code 125 B/H supported (I have quite a few yards

@Hayfield

Hi John,

When I've had some breakfast I will make a bit of video showing what to click. I will add a button to make all the settings changes in one go. Just thinking about where to put it without making everything more complicated.

Code125 is probably supported if you leave it on the default EMGS code75 setting (Templot will scale it up to 7mm). I haven't got any code125 to try.

Yes, you can make the timbers thinner -- see the photos. To match Peco 0 gauge flexible set them to 3.12mm thick with code131 rail or 3.24mm thick with code125 rail. I haven't got any C&L or SMP Marcway flexible to measure.

Also you don't need the side flanges on the timbers if there are no sockets. But in that case you do lose the dropper-wire retaining ridges, see:

I'm currently experimenting with FDM printed slots for resin-printed loose jaws, see above. I haven't got the slot size quite right yet.

This would make it possible to assemble vertically as before. I don't like the rail slide-in option, and it makes the knuckle bends difficult or impossible.

It might even be possible to FDM print the loose jaws, although I think the printer settings would be critical to get accurate pin dimensions.

p.s. the track in the photos was printed on the Neptune 4 (took 2hours 16minutes). I haven't tried on the Kingroon and it may not work. I suggest trying a short bit of plain track as a test.

There are so many loose ends in play at the moment I'm getting in a bit of a muddle again.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

Here's a video showing what to click:

https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=UxbeecqUUtH8g69500ClNA2

Sorry it's so scruffy -- it takes me hours to make smooth videos.

p.s. If you are using code 125 rail, please let me know how well it fits. Thanks.

If you are using code 131 rail you need to change the rail setting.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

Here's a video showing what to click:

https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=UxbeecqUUtH8g69500ClNA2

Sorry it's so scruffy -- it takes me hours to make smooth videos.

p.s. If you are using code 125 rail, please let me know how well it fits. Thanks.

If you are using code 131 rail you need to change the rail setting.

cheers,

Martin.

Martin

Thanks, I will watch after the football

Please PM me with your address I can certainly supply you with some code 125, and I should have some 131

John

 

[Hayfield]

Sorry lads hit an issue, when previewing 3-D export error message comes up as it has no folder name

 

[Martin Wynne]

Sorry lads hit an issue, when previewing 3-D export error message comes up as it has no folder name

@Hayfield

Hi John,

Has your preview been working ok before?

Did you remember to change to 3D FDM?

Try exporting the file anyway and seeing if it looks ok in 3D Builder.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

Thanks

Yes it has been working before
yes pressing export works
I have done something wrong as no sleepers have been formed
I will go back and try again

John

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

Did you remember to click this:

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Found the issue it was not on the 2D/3D setting

 

[Martin Wynne]

Found the issue it was not on the 2D/3D setting

@Hayfield

Hi John,

Sorry, I assumed you would be starting Templot from scratch. For anyone else, before starting the video:

I will add a button to quick-set all the settings for this, it just takes time to do it all.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

I am having fun with this,

Cura seems to work

But its started printing the chair bases first ?

 

[Martin Wynne]

But its started printing the chair bases first ?

@Hayfield

Hi John,

???

That's not right, how did you manage that? Those look like plugs, did you remember to untick them?

If you post the BOX file I will make the STL for you. Or I can do the BOX file too. What gauge? What rail?

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Update

The timbers started printing, but it seems I had missed a few areas with the glue and had an issue with the base sticking.

Stopped printing, cleaned the glass and waiting for it to go cold before I re-glue the build plate

 

[Martin Wynne]

Update

The timbers started printing, but it seems I had missed a few areas with the glue and had an issue with the base sticking.

Stopped printing, cleaned the glass and waiting for it to go cold before I re-glue the build plate

@Hayfield

Hi John,

I think it is printing plugs. It should start with the timbers. Did you forget to untick this:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

???

That's not right, how did you manage that? Those look like plugs, did you remember to untick them?

If you post the BOX file I will make the STL for you. Or I can do the BOX file too. What gauge? What rail?

cheers,

Martin.

Martin

Thanks for the offer

32mm and 125 gauge rail

Do you want some C&L 125 and possibly 131 rail, if so please PM me your address

I don't know if I have a printer issue, or more likely failed to alter the settings properly. Will try and print a file I know works

John

 

[Hayfield]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

I think it is printing plugs. It should start with the timbers. Did you forget to untick this:


View attachment 10774

cheers,

Martin.

I am sure I unticked these, a thought I may have two templates.

 

[Martin Wynne]

I am sure I unticked these, a thought I may have two templates.

@Hayfield

Hi John,

Thanks for the STL. If you look on the underside in the preview, you can se that you still have the plugs switched on. They are deeper than the thin timbers:

That's not printable in FDM because it would need to print the timbers in fresh air above the bed. If you tried it, it will have failed -- it's not a printer problem.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield @James Walters

This option is using resin-printed loose jaws in FDM printed chairs. Getting the loose-jaw slot dimensions adjusted is proving a bit of a bother -- I haven't got it quite right yet, the jaws are not seating properly. Also with loose jaws it needs the full depth timbers instead of these thin ones, I trimmed the protruding ends of the jaw pins from the underside of the timbers:

I'm not sure what to make of this option (or even what to call it -- without plugs can it be called plug track?).

The big advantage over the solid chairs with slide-in rail is that it can be assembled vertically like proper plug track, and no chamfered rail ends needed.

The disadvantage is that the chair quality is poorer -- and if you need a resin printer to make the jaws, why not make the chairs too? As a reminder, this is proper plug track in 0 gauge:

Thin and thick timbers:

More pics at: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?posts/11145

Using full depth timbers also gives you the dropper-wire ridges and the switch slider ribs (tie-bar).

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

Thank you, I thought I had an issue with my printer, but now you have explained the issue I have made a new file which the preview accepts and no chair plugs showing. The machine is running and printing the sleepers, little stringing I am using 190 degree brick settings

58 mins using 4g

 

[Hayfield]

The test print has just finished

Photos always look worse, I am letting the print cool prior to removing it and cleaning it up

I have made files for a B7 in 4 printable bricks and will try printing a brick (if the test piece holds the rail square) this afternoon

Martin, I think you may be a little harsh on your prints, accept the chairs may not be as finely detailed as resin prints, but when you compare it with what's available commercially it may be better than than what's available, certainly in 7mm scale.

As far as price is concerned the B7 costs £1.10 appx plus rail, The timbers may need a bit of sanding, but many sand grain into their timbers already

Dinner and football may get in the way

 

[Hayfield]

Forgot to send the last post, so a double bill

Do the timbers get ironed as they are not the last surface to be printed ? Even so after a coat or two of paint hopefully they will pass muster

The fourth brick being printed. Have to wait 3h 38m to print, Bricks 3 & 4 for me will be the most interesting as they have the common crossing

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

That looks great. The cobwebby stringing is normal and easily removed with a quick scrub with a nailbrush.

At present the ironing is only on the top-most surface, which is the chair key probably. If we switch it on for all flat upper surfaces it would be wasting time ironing the timber webs in addition to the timber tops.

A way to prevent that would be to make the web top surface slightly tapered, i.e. thicker on the inside than at the outside. There is so much still to experiment with before we get this project truly finished.

How well is the code 125 rail fitting?

Martin, I think you may be a little harsh on your prints, accept the chairs may not be as finely detailed as resin prints, but when you compare it with what's available commercially it may be better than than what's available, certainly in 7mm scale.

Maybe -- what I'm waiting for is a consensus view on whether this all-FDM option is worth doing properly in Templot, at least for 7mm scale? And what to call it? We can't call it plug track if there are no plugs.

I've previously tried it in 4mm and found the chairs were too fragile to withstand the rail-threading process.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

And what to call it? We can't call it plug track if there are no plugs.

How about cot track? Chairs On Timbers.

The Semi version with Slotted chairs can be scot track.

Or?

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

How about cot track? Chairs On Timbers.

@Hayfield @James Walters

Here we go, first stab:

Hopefully when the chair heaving is more fully developed, it will be possible to select these options for individual chairs. For example you could have solid jaws for most of the chairs, but loose jaw for wing rails and knuckle bends.

No code written yet, this is just a first look at fitting it all in the existing dialog.

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

That looks great. The cobwebby stringing is normal and easily removed with a quick scrub with a nailbrush.

At present the ironing is only on the top-most surface, which is the chair key probably. If we switch it on for all flat upper surfaces it would be wasting time ironing the timber webs in addition to the timber tops.

A way to prevent that would be to make the web top surface slightly tapered, i.e. thicker on the inside than at the outside. There is so much still to experiment with before we get this project truly finished.

How well is the code 125 rail fitting?



Maybe -- what I'm waiting for is a consensus view on whether this all-FDM option is worth doing properly in Templot, at least for 7mm scale? And what to call it? We can't call it plug track if there are no plugs.

I've previously tried it in 4mm and found the chairs were too fragile to withstand the rail-threading process.

cheers,

Martin.

Martin

Initial impressions are very good, OK the prints do need cleaning up but it looks worse than it actually is

If its anything like the 3 sleepers then I am happy

I have used a scalpel with a new blade and started to give the top of the timbers a light sand

Rail might be a different issue, C&L code 131 should be quite uniform as the die is new and only used by C&L

From what I have been told the code 125 die was an all user item possibly owned by the wire drawers. As it happens my farther was a wire drawer, the little I know is that over time the die wears and the item being drawn (rail in this case) becomes larger, plus how close was the original design to specifications. I know my dad had to keep a constant eye on the wire being drawn size

With the 3 sleepers the track gauge is 31.91 (using my cheap digital caliper) the rail head is 1.6mm. Certainly OK for 32mm gauge

I will check the first turnout for rail fit later once I cut some longer lengths of rail (I am using C&L code 125 as I brought quite a few lengths cheaply from the previous owner when he was clearing his personal stocks) plus I will also need to print some filing jigs. Code 125 also matches my lengths of older Peco & C&L flexi track.

Certainly my first impressions are very favorable, it would be wrong to take close ups as in reality you would never look at trackwork through a magnifying glass

track section two of four is now being printed.

The first section has been lightly sanded and perhaps the finish on the timbers cab be hidden by paint ? or eye distracted by weathering? Also making some small sanding blocks may assist. Lots of if's to tick off,

Looking at the common crossing chairing, its far better than what I can build using C&L and Exactoscale parts, Given both the availability and cost of "Off The Rails" products

If I can escape long enough I need some etched primer and perhaps some acrylic paint

I will keep all updated

John

 

[Hayfield]

A slight irony, I have used a C&L new style (solid 1 piece turned) designed for code 125 and its does not easily fit C&L code 125 rail, a very tight fit on the rail head. The sleepers as I have said is just under 32mm, but the rail may not be quite square in the chair

 

[Martin Wynne]

The first section has been lightly sanded and perhaps the finish on the timbers cab be hidden by paint ? or eye distracted by weathering? Also making some small sanding blocks may assist. Lots of if's to tick off,

Hi John,

Looking good!

Don't worry about the timbers, we are only interested in the FDM chairs at present. We can fix the finish on the timbers by changing the Cura profile.

I have sent you an email.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

I will try and print 3 bricks today

In the high 90's showing the chairs

A quick blast of etched primer lessens the the visual appearance surface texturing, will give it a coat of paint later

I broke 3 chairs when threading the rails, but how many chairs do we break when threading C&L or Exactoscale chairs, not forgetting the 125 settings are scaled up from code 75. I am posting some C&L code 125 to Martin so he has them to check against the sizes we are using

One of the chairs on the 3 sleeper were slightly broken, now stuck back with superglue. In some ways we must be aware of not being over critical of results, agree its got to be right, but perfect?

Martin thanks for this development, as printers get better, so will the prints. I am using a basic machine!!

 

[Martin Wynne]

I broke 3 chairs when threading the rails, but how many chairs do we break when threading C&L or Exactoscale chairs, not forgetting the 125 settings are scaled up from code 75. I am posting some C&L code 125 to Martin so he has them to check against the sizes we are using

One of the chairs on the 3 sleeper were slightly broken, now stuck back with superglue. In some ways we must be aware of not being over critical of results, agree its got to be right, but perfect?

@Hayfield

Hi John,

Please, please, please remember this is an experiment. It's not ready for use until we have got the settings sorted out!

I threaded the code 131 rail into the test print from the Neptune 4 without breaking any chairs. Indeed they are very difficult to break. But...

1. the Neptune 4 prints at a much higher temperature. We may need to do that on the Kingroon and other Marlin-based printers to get strong chairs.

2. the chairs were properly matched to the 131 rail. Your chairs are probably not well matched to the code 125 rail. Thanks for sending me some to measure. When I receive it I can then make sure the chairs fit properly.

3. don't worry about the timber surface. We can fix that in Cura -- all I'm interested in at present is the chairs -- this is an experiment!

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

I accept that this is an experiment, and the rail will be in the post tomorrow (don't they realize us oldies don't need bank holidays !!)

As I said I assume the rail fit will be much better once you can measure code 125

Accept the timbers will be better, but after a quick spray with primer all looks much better

I plan to finish off printing the turnout, then print some filing jigs.

Looking at the chairs the "special" (non standard) look so much better in 7mm scale than 4mm

 

[Martin Wynne]

I plan to finish off printing the turnout, then print some filing jigs.

@Hayfield

Hi John,

For the filing jigs you will need to measure the rail and set the groove dimensions accordingly -- Templot doesn't set them automatically, the defaults are for the EMGS code75 rail.

For the groove depth I suggest you measure the rail height, divide by 2, and subtract 0.05mm. You will probably need to make several test prints to get it just right. They are quicker to do if you set the jigs much thinner just for the testing.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

The third out of the 4 bricks for the 7mm B7 has printed and cleaned up well

Must admit for a first test print I am very impressed

The test print has had a coat of primer and a first coat of paint, whilst the painting leaves a lot to be desired, unlike the enlarged photo at 1-1 the finish is in my mind very good

Owing to a glue malfunction I cannot finish the last brick today, now to wrap up the rail for Martin, perhaps the sleepers will get a second coat

 

[Hayfield]

A quick update on my tests, I was out until early evening so little was achieved

Code 121 rail is on its way to Martin.

I have an issue with brick 1, for some reason it would not print (filament would not adhere to build plate), I tested the printer with another file, which started printing fine, so file 1 must be at fault. Not an issue I will make a new file

What I did find is that when I made files 2, 3. & 4 the settings were remembered and they all printed. Should have made a new file last night but spent my time making blackberry Chutney. Busy most of the day so I doubt if I get much done

Initial thoughts are very positive, once we have the correct rail size in Templot hopefully code 125 will fit as well as 131
Martin has a fix in mind for the timber surface, but once painted the finish is not bad
Mail issue is the amount of stringing on the chairs, again from what Martin has said higher temperatures might improve matters

As an experiment its not that far off, a bit like a bigger version of Wayne's 4mm 3D printed track, and the builder would have to use similar construction methods

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

Many thanks for sending the rail, I look forward to receiving it.

I have been trying the COT track on my Kingroon, and the results are not as good as yours. Very stringy, too much to be easily cleaned off, and the chairs are very fragile and easily broken in the fingers. I tried a much higher temperature (220degC, same as the Neptune 4) thinking that might make them stronger. It didn't, it just made the stringing 10 times worse (which is as expected with high temperatures from all my previous experience on the Marlin-based printers, with lots of different retraction settings).

Setting ironing for all upper surfaces made a big improvement to the timber tops.

I do have a reel of PLA-ST to try (Super Tough). Which might help with the strength, but I doubt it will do much for the stringing and may make it worse.

All of which makes my success with COT on the Neptune 4 a bit puzzling. It wasn't a fluke because I have repeated it with different files and filaments. The slight stringing is easily removed with a nailbrush, and the chairs cannot be broken in the fingers -- it needs a pair of pliers to break them. They are easily as strong as injection-moulded chairs.

It must be related to extruder design in some way and the high-speed movement. Now that the fast Klipper-based Neptune 4 (and probably others) are in the same price bracket as the Kingroons, I think most folks would go for the Neptune. I can see a great many of the older Marlin-based FDM printers disappearing from the market. It would be a shame for the Kingroons, because they are the only ones with the metal linear guides instead of rubber rollers.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

On my last two prints towards the end of the printing I intervened removing strings with one of the tweezers you recommend, the amount of cleaning afterwards was much less, I used a scalpel with a new blade, but the resulting chair quality was worth the trouble

It may be much better using a Neptune printer which in its self is a good thing, those of us with cheaper machines will just have tp put up with it, For me it was not too much of an issue cleaning up the stringing, especially after I refined the process

In standard PLA chair strength is fine, providing a better fit for the rails. At worse buy some more code 131 rail (I may do a test piece with code 131 rail)

Good news about the ironing of the timbers

The things I find most beneficial, are firstly the look of the chairs, much better than anything available commercially, Its compatible with commercial ready to run flexitrack. Usual Templot turnout geometry options. Best of all a turnout costs about a fiver, (printer pays for itself quickly). Down side works better with dearer printers. Which Neptune 4 printer is suitable ?

John

 

[Martin Wynne]

Down side works better with dearer printers. Which Neptune 4 printer is suitable ?

@Hayfield @James Walters

Hi John,

Code 125 rail just arrived, many thanks. I will get it measured, make some chairs, and send you some.

The Neptune 4 printers were a lot dearer, but not any more. James has just obtained a Neptune 4 from:

https://www.123-3d.co.uk/Elegoo-Neptune-4-3D-printer-50-201-012-300-i9978-t115575.html

and says he is very pleased with it. At that price it is less than the Kingroon KP3S Pro.

I suspect that the reason the price has dropped is that there is a Neptune 5 on the way, so there may be limited stocks of the 4.

The larger Plus and Max versions are a lot more expensive, likewise the Pro version with metal rollers. But the basic 4 above is the one I have, also James. Bed size is 235mm x 235mm, printable area 230mm x 230mm. Not suitable for use with a glass bed, but I have learned to live with the PEI bed and auto-levelling.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Code 125 rail just arrived, many thanks.

@Hayfield

Thanks to John, code 125 rail now included in the settings:

Will be in Templot5, which will be included in the next program update.

Thanks again John,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

Thanks, I checked the dimensions of code 131 against 125, as the foot of 131 is just 0.07mm given code 131 fits Exactoscale and old C&L chairs, I thought I would do a non engineering test and see how code 125 fits into a short section of track of chairs designed for code 131.

Sorry if this is very un-scientific, just as you say an experiment

With what I have gleaned from Phil, rail is drawn to be within certain tolerances. I know Phil has his own die for 131, C&L code 75 may be using a stock die open to all

As for Neptune printers I am in 2 minds, one is wait for the latest version, secondly buy a Neptune 4. A bit like choosing a laptop as soon as you buy it its out of date