FDM chairs in 0 gauge - COT track

[Martin Wynne]

Also when you perform real > shove timbers, then select a timber/sleeper, and you hover over a chair label, it turns yellow:-

Thanks Steve.

No need to do the shove timbers first. It will appear anyway when you click a chair label.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi John,
@Hayfield

Another Templot5 tip, especially as you seem to work in a lot of scales and gauges.
When you have fine-tuned your Export for 7mm COT track, and if you have changed any of the defaults, be sure to save your parameters for next time.

On the export screen, click on [show settings], then click on the custom tab to reveal the [load custom data...] & [save custom data...] buttons.

when you click [save custom data...] you get a preview of the settings you about to save:-

click on the [save custom data] at the bottom of the preview screen and you get a standard windows save as screen:-

instead of just using the default file name, choose a more relevant one, for instance:-
7mm_COT_FDM_data.sk4 (assuming we are talking FDM printing)

For P4 you would probably have a separate resin one and an FDM one.

P4_FDM_data.sk4
P4_Resin_data.sk4

If and when you get a Neptune4, you might even need:-

7mm_COT_FDM_Neptune.sk4
7mm_COT_FDM_Kingroon.sk4

Steve

 

[Hayfield]

Hi John,


Just to be clear, did you mean that you upgraded Templot2 to version 245b, then used the BIG Templot5 BUTTON to switch to Templot5?

Templot5
Have you noticed for example starting with a control template with experimental chairing switched on:-
View attachment 11134
when you click on the [3D] button, you get:-
View attachment 11136
notice the chair labels, and the [ ] show chair labels tickbox.
Also when you perform real > shove timbers, then select a timber/sleeper, and you hover over a chair label, it turns yellow:-
View attachment 11138
and then if you click the chair label, the heave chair screen appears:-
View attachment 11139
with the selected chair heaving box outlined in yellow.

Of course chair labels are of more use on a turnout template:-
View attachment 11140

Steve

Steve

Yes I noticed the chair labels, don't forget its baby steps for me

I like the spacers between the timbers, but I may be running out of time in the early part of the week re printing etc. I need to go back to work as I had more time when I worked !!!

 

[Hayfield]

@Hayfield

Yes, 3D Builder takes quite a while with a lot of chairs to do.

What was said against the Neptune 4 ? Since I've been using the glue-stick with it, I've had no problems at all. Here is the profile I've been using for 0 gauge COT track on the Neptune 4 - EN4 with version Elegoo Cura 5.6

(Not suitable for the Kingroon -- too fast.)

cheers,

Martin.

Martin

Ordered

John

 

[Hayfield]

40% done (or is it 40% of the slices as it seems to speed up when chairs only are being printed

The timbers are much smoother also its a lot quieter printing, as before it was like the head was scraping along the work sometimes

 

[Steve_Cornford]

From that picture we can only see the clips along the front edge of the glass bed.
Do you have any on the rear edge?
Steve

 

[Hayfield]

From that picture we can only see the clips along the front edge of the glass bed.
Do you have any on the rear edge?
Steve

Steve

Yes 1

 

[Hayfield]

Chair bases now showing

A good reason to move to a Neptune 4 is the stringing, its not too bad but I think we are at the limits of the Kingroon with the settings we are using (4mm brick settings) for 7 mm COT track printing.

For something a few weeks ago was just an experiment, now with a bit of tweaking using an entry level budget printer I think its a great step forward. Thanks Martin super job

John

 

[Hayfield]

I am pleased to say the test is a success, code 125 rail fits nice and snugly and too gauge.

I have made a file for a filing gauge, will print tomorrow

John

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield @James Walters

Hi John,

If the Neptune 4 can produce FDM COT track with integral chairs in 0 gauge, it can also produce plug track with separate FDM plug-in chairs:

(code 125 rail)

Comparison with resin chairs:

At present the fit is too loose and needs some changes. But it is clearly doable for 0 gauge as an option instead of a resin printer.

The advantage over COT track is that it makes possible complex formations such as a tandem turnout or outside slip, which require some of the rails to be put into position vertically (with the chairs on), rather than slide-in from one end.

This also makes it possible to build laser-cut 0 gauge track with FDM chairs rather than resin-printed.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

This sounds very interesting, plus you had thoughts about a composite build system

The benefit of the COT system is the compatibility with ready to run plain track, I guess mainly to be able to replace or to intergrate with an existing layout without having to build up areas to match differing heights

Just got back from the East Anglian branch of the L&B, so just turned the printer on for mk1 version of a 1-7 code 125 filing jig, I doubt I will get the rail size correct first go. At the moment I am interested in seeing the rails fitting the common crossing

I have also had confirmed the new printer is on its way, might be very useful at times having two printers

Must start making a list of what to take to Scaleforum, as it seems its track making as well as Templot which is not an issue

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi John,

re Kingroon Rear clip

Yes 1

I found that I had to bend the top clip handle of any clips on the rear edge down to avoid it being caught on the two ends of the print head drive belt which project downwards.
Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

to avoid it being caught on the two ends of the print head drive belt which project downwards.

@Steve_Cornford @Hayfield

Hi Steve,

John has the smaller Kingroon printer, and the belt on that one doesn't do that. The belt attachment to the head is in fact above the rail -- meaning the X-stepper is actually reversed in the firmware. A much better design.

I think the reason for the change was because of the addition of a belt tensioner.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

The jig printed very well, but I made an errot on the depth (must be my error as the width was fine) Still nothing a coupled of microstril pieces solved

The rail filed easily

End result excellent even though the vee rails are the wrong way round. Story of my school life Must Do Better. Off to the back of the room with my dunces hat on

 

[Hayfield]

The right way round this time

John

 

[Hayfield]

I have moved on a bit further this afternoon thanks to the rain

The second brick was a lot less effort to populate with rail

As Martin suggested both preparing the rail ends and running through with a length of rail first helps.

I was very surprised how easily the wing rails fitted, easy peasy. Check rails fitted just as easy as wing rails

I am thinking of soldering both the Vee and knuckle joins

I forgot to post the update so here is it with brick (section) 3 added

I think I will certainly solder the knuckle join and probably the Vee. Simply to stop movement and hide the knuckle join

I have used Exactoscale H shaped plastic fishplates where the rails join, quite a few droppers required

John

 

[Martin Wynne]

I think I will certainly solder the knuckle join and probably the Vee. Simply to stop movement and hide the knuckle join

@Hayfield

Hi John,

You will need to be very quick with the soldering iron. The PLA plastic melts easily at soldering temperatures (that's why it is easy to print).

If it's just to stop movement I would try a smear of epoxy. Or switch on the dropper wire ridges, which is the intended means of anchoring the rail for plug track. I think the ridges need adjusting slightly for 7mm -- there is always one more job I haven't got round to.

Obviously it is your choice, but I'm a bit disappointed to see the rail break at the knuckle and the lack of a radiused knuckle bend. There is an option to use loose jaws for the 3 chairs XN, AA, BB so that a pre-bent wing rail can be used and slide into position. The thinner timbers mean the loose jaw would need to be glued into place, but I think that's doable. The pin on the loose jaw needs to be cut off. The unwanted shallow slot makes somewhere to put a small blob of glue.

The first choice would be resin for the loose jaws, but I think it should be feasible to FDM-print them if necessary. Your photo with a break at the knuckle has prompted me to do something about that -- I'm trying a print right know. If it's ok I will find some way to add them to the COT print in a similar way to the spacer blocks. Being for the crossing chairs means they are not interchangeable and unique to each chair.

Just to clarify, this setting applies to the crossing chairs only -- that's just 6 loose jaws to fit:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

Thank you again, in your words this is an experiment and at the moment its simply proving the theory. We now know the chairs are detailed and strong enough, and that code 125 runs through it. We also know the chairs are strong enough to allow formed check rails to be pushed through

I will try using 70 degree solder to hide the join and as suggested a spot of glue to hold rail in place

Also it would be nice to see something to move through it

To move the experiment on I am more than happy to go to the next stage, which is to build a turnout with loose jaws around the knuckle, and glue them in. I believe keeping the slimmer timbers I think for some will be a game changer

 

[Martin Wynne]

Martin

Thank you again, in your words this is an experiment and at the moment its simply proving the theory. We now know the chairs are detailed and strong enough, and that code 125 runs through it. We also know the chairs are strong enough to allow formed check rails to be pushed through

I will try using 70 degree solder to hide the join and as suggested a spot of glue to hold rail in place

Also it would be nice to see something to move through it

To move the experiment on I am more than happy to go to the next stage, which is to build a turnout with loose jaws around the knuckle, and glue them in. I believe keeping the slimmer timbers I think for some will be a game changer

@Hayfield

Hi John,

I've tried FDM prints of the loose jaws and they are ok. Without the pins they are quite fiddly to handle, but do sort of "clip" into position between the rail and the chair screws. I might look at modifying the screw bosses and jaw ribs slightly to create more of a definite clip effect. They would still need some glue for a permanent fix. Superglue Gel seems the most promising.

Alternatively, do you think you would be able to pre-assemble a pair of wing rails into plug-in chairs? Something like this:

To be plugged into the COT base as a pre-assembled unit. The vee rails can then slide into position between them.

To assemble it I think you would start with both rails through the knuckle chair, and then manipulate the rails at each end to slide on the other chairs, which would need to flex a little.

I have established that plug-in FDM chairs is feasible:

But this would be for just the 5 chairs at the crossing. I'm going to try it later today.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

Any chance of a few examples/files for Scaleforum/me. New printer arriving today, no room in workshop for it so a bit of a tidy up needed

 

[Martin Wynne]

Martin

Any chance of a few examples/files for Scaleforum/me. New printer arriving today, no room in workshop for it so a bit of a tidy up needed

@Hayfield

Hi John,

Sure. What do you need? Are you talking P4 plug track, or 0 gauge COT track?

When you get your Neptune, do some checks first. The Z backlash-correction is supplied free of charge by gravity. As supplied the fixings for the brass nuts on the Z screws will be loose and floppy. That's by design -- don't be tempted to tighten them. The Z rollers need to be set loose enough for gravity to work -- you should be able to lift the carriage by hand a fraction, and it will immediately drop back under its own weight. Check this with the nozzle down near the bed where you will be printing timbering bricks, in case the columns are not truly parallel. The easy way to move the carriage up and down by hand (power off) is to pull on the synchronizing belt at the top of the columns.

If the carriage seems too tight even after adjusting the eccentric rollers, try slacking all the fixing bolts which you put in the base of the columns just a fraction, and then tighten them again.

Do these checks before your first test print -- it will be a disappointing failure if the Z rollers are too tight.

Also give the tinplate bed a clean before you start, to remove any factory finger-prints, etc.

A useful hi-tech attachment for the Neptune 4 is:

Small button magnet on top of one Z screw + blue-tack + cocktail stick pointer. You can watch this turning slightly as the head moves to and fro across the bed to check the auto-levelling is working. In the de-luxe version the cocktail stick is painted red.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

Thanks for the advice, without the machine and instructions I have no idea what you are asking me to do. I will cross that bridge when it arrives and I have made space

Re Scaleforum, James has sent some chairs to me in the post for the P4 turnout and it is this I plan to major on along with basic Templot

As for COT track and the COT + Plug track in 7mm FDM I thought it might be a look into the future of 7mm modelling.

I plan to have a Kingroon printer working in the background, mostly to show how simple/small the printers are, plus how idiot proof it is. It would be nice also to see the difference in quality between the Neptune and Kingroon and how much more can be printed with the larger bed.

I will also be taking some traditional examples and a small amount of tools, just trying to cover most angles

John

Printer 6 stops away

 

[Martin Wynne]

Thanks for the advice, without the machine and instructions I have no idea what you are asking me to do. I will cross that bridge when it arrives and I have made space

@Hayfield

Hi John,

You will need plenty of space to extract it from the box and assemble it! Having 3 hands helps. Just ask if the instructions are not clear.

p.s. you can leave off the bank of booster fans which attach behind the head. I have never yet used them.

I will send some sample Neptune prints for Scaleforum/to compare with your own.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Turnout coming on fine

Switchrair rear filing jig, hoping I have not repeated the depth error

 

[Hayfield]

Error with my switch rail settings and ended up with a slightly deepened slot,

I assume I enter the full depth(head width?) 1.6mm but half the width (grove depth) 1.7 (3.4) less 0.5mm ?

head width 1.6mm
grove depth 1.65

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

ended up with a slightly deepened slot

It looks like you measured code 131 rail and then used code 125?

1. The code 125 rail height is 3.20mm. Divide by 2 = 1.60mm. Subtract say 0.1mm = 1.50mm. That's the groove depth for code 125.

2. The code 131 rail height is 3.38mm. Divide by 2 = 1.69mm. Subtract say 0.1mm = 1.59mm. That's the groove depth for code 131. It would probably be useable in the code 125 jig (but not the other way round).

3. The rail width is 1.59mm. So that's the groove width. Add a bit on to ensure it's an easy fit, say 1.65mm groove rail head width. The code 131 rail is the same width.

You might need to adjust the sizes slightly after a trial print. To save time if it's wrong, print only one half of the jig first.

I will add a function to calculate the pre-set dimensions from the currently selected rail section. Remind me if I forget.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Guess what I have used up my code131 instead of 125, not a problem as I will swap the rail over and start again. Without looking I grabbed the wrong pack. Not an issue as I have plenty of time to wait for the jigs

Thanks

 

[Hayfield]

.
Here is the Cura profile which I am using for the above cot track (integral chairs on timbers).

This profile is for the Elegoo Neptune 4 printer only.

This profile is for the branded Elegoo Cura 5.6 version of Cura only (can be downloaded from the Elegoo web site). It is unlikely to work in other versions of Cura.
Cura 5.6
This is intended for 0 gauge cot track (7mm/ft scale) and above. It probably won't work well, or at all, in the smaller scales.

The print speed is about 7 minutes per sleeper for plain track, and averaging about 11 minutes per timber for pointwork (0 gauge).

It could be significantly speeded up by reducing the print quality.

Martin.

Martin

Do I need to download Cura 5.6 please

 

[James Walters]

Martin

Do I need to download Cura 5.6 please

Hi John,
I downloaded the Cura 5.6 from the Elegoo website. It was all very straight forward.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Do I need to download Cura 5.6 please

@Hayfield @James Walters

Hi John, James,

I suggest you wait and see which version of Cura is on the USB stick with the printer. If it's on there you won't need to download it. But it might be an older version, in which case I would suggest downloading the upgrade.

It was all very straight forward.

This is where it can get messy. It's straightforward if you don't already have a version of native Cura on your computer.

But if you do (John has), the native versions of Cura and the customized Elegoo versions are not very friendly with each other and don't like being on the same computer. Both of them will give error messages and offer to wipe out any profiles belonging to the other one. DON'T click yes.

John, write again when you know what's on the USB stick and I will explain what to click.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

You are likely to see this every time you start either version of Cura. DON'T click Reset:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin/James

All it says is Elegoo Cura DMG
Elegoo Cura app
Both created 21-6-23

Made in 19-12-22

No other info unless I download the programs

 

[Martin Wynne]

Martin/James

All it says is Elegoo Cura DMG
Elegoo Cura app
Both created 21-6-23

Made in 19-12-22

No other info unless I download the programs

@Hayfield

Hi John,

That's likely to be an older version of Cura on the USB stick. I suggest you ignore it.

Instead, you can download the Elegoo Cura 5.6 version directly by clicking this link:

https://github.com/ELEGOO-Slicer/EL...1229/ELEGOO_Cura_5.6.0_win64_X64_20231229.exe

You can ignore the rest of the USB stick too. Except that there is probably a video on there showing how to unpack and assemble the printer.

It wouldn't be the first package from China in which I found the unpacking instructions in the bottom of the box.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Done

Only Cura 5.6 showing applications, but when I open Cura it shows 5.5

Is this OK

 

[Martin Wynne]

Done

Only Cura 5.6 showing applications, but when I open Cura it shows 5.5

Is this OK

@Hayfield

Hi John,

???

Did you download it and install it after downloading?

Or is that from the USB stick?

Where does it say 5.5 ?

Is that the regular version of Cura which you have been using with the Kingroon?

When I start Elegoo Cura 5.6 I see this. Then click the help menu, then about, and it shows:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

Thanks I missed the final part of the install

I now need to add your settings (if I can remember how to) presumably do not title it Neptune 4

 

[Martin Wynne]

Martin

Thanks I missed the final part of the install

I now need to add your settings (if I can remember how to) presumably do not title it Neptune 4

@Hayfield

Hi John,

Is the Neptune up and running?

Here below is my current profile setting for 7mm COT track on Neptune 4 (EN4).

I'm constantly trying changes -- this is today's version.

Don't forget that after importing it you must then select it for use in the drop-down list.

p.s. if you fitted the bank of booster fans, switch them off while using this profile for COT track. There is an on-off switch on top of them.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

On my lower task bar Cura5.6 has a different Icon,

when I try and import your file quality type in Profile/Import I get this message

Import Profile
Failed to import filefrom C:/Users/johnj/Downloads EN4_cot_track,7mm_scale_29aug2024:Quality type@Elegoo_klipper_layer_016' is not compatible with current active machine definition 'fdmprinter'

 

[Hayfield]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

Is the Neptune up and running?

Here below is my current profile setting for 7mm COT track on Neptune 4 (EN4).

I'm constantly trying changes -- this is today's version.

Don't forget that after importing it you must then select it for use in the drop-down list.

p.s. if you fitted the bank of booster fans, switch them off while using this profile for COT track. There is an on-off switch on top of them.

cheers,

Martin.

Yes it is, have auto leveled but want to go through the process again. Printed a boat

I will try your new settings in Cura

 

[Martin Wynne]

Martin

On my lower task bar Cura5.6 has a different Icon,

when I try and import your file quality type in Profile/Import I get this message

Import Profile
Failed to import filefrom C:/Users/johnj/Downloads EN4_cot_track,7mm_scale_29aug2024:Quality type@Elegoo_klipper_layer_016' is not compatible with current active machine definition 'fdmprinter'

@Hayfield

Hi John,

You haven't set the Neptune 4 in the drop-down list of printers. Click this:

cheers,

Martin.