Paul Boyd

Ffestiniog Railway Bullhead Track

Paul Boyd

Member
Location
Loughborough, UK
Paul Boyd submitted a new resource:

Ffestiniog Railway Bullhead Track - Detail photos of 1970s bullhead track, taken at Dduallt in 2001.

This is an album of photos I took at Dduallt in 2001. I believe this track would have been laid in the late 1970s, although I'd have to re-check my FR history. It shows old bullhead track using second-hand BR sleepers and timbers - in some cases you can see bolt holes and chair impressions from their previous use.

A couple of interesting points (to me, anyway). One of the photos shows the use of Penrhyn Quarry...

Read more about this resource...
 
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Hi Paul,
Some lovely detail views there, thanks for uploading and linking to them. The join between the BH and FB track is kinda cute - and it shows the surprising difference in rail sizes.

I assume many of the chairs are not centered on the timbers because they have used recycled materials and the wood may be split or otherwise damaged.

Nice weather up there as usual:)

Rob
 
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Paul Boyd

Member
Location
Loughborough, UK
Hi Paul,
Some lovely detail views there, thanks for uploading and linking to them. The join between the BH and FB track is kinda cute - and it shows the surprising difference in rail sizes.

I assume many of the chairs are not centered on the timbers because they have used recycled materials and the wood may be split or otherwise damaged.

Nice weather up there as usual:)

Rob
Hi Rob

Thanks for your comment. Unfortunately I didn't actually measure the rail sizes, but I suspect that the bullhead on the main line at Dduallt might have still been the old PQR rail - some of it certainly is in the sidings. That would make the difference even greater. For modelling, I've chosen to essentially ignore the size difference and use code 60 for both bullhead and flat-bottom.

Many of the timbers have old bolt holes scattered about so I guess they just positioned the chairs wherever they could to avoid the holes. The timbers there would have been ex-BR. I noticed that some of the bolt holes have been neatly plugged with plastic caps, although I would have thought that would just retain any moisture that got in!

Yes, lovely Welsh weather! Sometimes that's actually quite nice, walking in the middle of nowhere in peace and quiet wrapped up against the weather in my own little world!

Cheers,
Paul
 
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Hi Rob

Yes, lovely Welsh weather! Sometimes that's actually quite nice, walking in the middle of nowhere in peace and quiet wrapped up against the weather in my own little world!

Cheers,
Paul
Paul,
That sounds like me - it keeps the crowds down when it is wet or cold which suits me fine - my own little world extends to one or more dogs as well though :)

Rob
 
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Marsh Lane

Member
Location
UK
Hi Paul,
I am embarking on a small narrow gauge, FR style project in 4mm to 7.83 gauge, so these are very useful - thanks for posting.

Rich
 
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Paul Boyd

Member
Location
Loughborough, UK
Hi Paul,
I am embarking on a small narrow gauge, FR style project in 4mm to 7.83 gauge, so these are very useful - thanks for posting.

Rich
Hi Rich

Glad you find them useful! I’m not sure if you’ve seen my track building posts, but I’m also building to 7.83mm gauge using 2mm Scale Association standards and parts.

Cheers,
Paul
 
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AndyB

Member
Hi Rich

Glad you find them useful! I’m not sure if you’ve seen my track building posts, but I’m also building to 7.83mm gauge using 2mm Scale Association standards and parts.

Cheers,
Paul

Ah, the tyranny of scales :giggle:

Are you modelling 2 foot gauge track at a scale of 1:76.2?

(I don't know who started all this 4 mm/foot nonsense but I would really like to punch him/her in the face.

Kindly pay no attention. It's just one of my many hot buttons.)
 
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Martin Wynne

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I don't know who started all this 4 mm/foot nonsense but I would really like to punch him/her in the face.

It's extremely useful in Templot.

When you see a mm dimension you know it means a dimension on the model.

When you see an inch dimension you know it means a dimension on the prototype.

Except where it doesn't. :)

Martin.
 
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Matt M.

Member
Location
Australia
The problem with using metric to remeasure imperial length divisions is you so often end up with
irrational numbers. While it is not so important in the scale model world it does cause
all sorts of issues calculating machining tolerances in mechanical engineering.

Matt M.
 
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Marsh Lane

Member
Location
UK
Hi Rich

Glad you find them useful! I’m not sure if you’ve seen my track building posts, but I’m also building to 7.83mm gauge using 2mm Scale Association standards and parts.

Cheers,
Paul
Hi Paul,
Thanks, no I hadn’t. I’ll go find them and have a look. John C, who now edits the Industrial & Narrow Gauge Review magazine,following the sad death of Roy C. Link has asked me to do a series of articles on the new layout, so I am keen to get it right!

@AndyB yes 4mm scale of 1ft 11.5 inches, FR style.

Rich
 
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Hayfield

Member
Location
Essex
I have a few 7 mm scale narrow gauge models, but I struggled to find any rail section that looked the business let alone any chairs. I remember looking at the trackwork at Minffordd and it was a mixture of spiked flatbottom rail and chaired bullhead

I found code 75 bullhead and code 82 flatbottom too small and whilst 7 mm scale sleepers and timbers looked fine code 125 rail was far too big

Code 100 rail is a good compromise, but there is a lack of bullhead rail and chairs of an appropriate size. At one time I did have some W&H plastic chairs, but that was way before I was interested in narrow gauge

What track do others use
 
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Marsh Lane

Member
Location
UK
Cannot really help too much on 7mm. Paul Holmes, built his 189w Diana’s model track from S scale society code 95 bullhead with their whitemetal chairs, although the latter are now unavailable. Although another thread on here has shown that Martin can 3D print 4mm chairs, so 7mm should be possible for someone.

We have been having a discussion over on the NGRM forum about NG track for 7.83mm gauge. It was concluded that many people use the Peco Code 60 conductor rail, accepting the slightly wider top, but Im going to put two test pieces together, one with the Peco rail, the other with C&L Code 55, which most people generally think is slightly closer for NG purposes in 4mm.

Rich
 
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Paul Boyd

Member
Location
Loughborough, UK
Cannot really help too much on 7mm. Paul Holmes, built his 189w Diana’s model track from S scale society code 95 bullhead with their whitemetal chairs, although the latter are now unavailable. Although another topic on here has shown that Martin can 3D print 4mm chairs, so 7mm should be possible for someone.

We have been having a discussion over on the NGRM forum about NG track for 7.83mm gauge. It was concluded that many people use the Peco Code 60 conductor rail, accepting the slightly wider top, but Im going to put two test pieces together, one with the Peco rail, the other with C&L Code 55, which most people generally think is slightly closer for NG purposes in 4mm.

Rich
Hi Rich

It sounds like there’s a bit if reinventing the wheel going on! I’m using the standards suggested by Paul Holmes for Borth-y-Gest. I guess you’re not the same Rich that commented on my thread here https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...le-narrow-gauge-layout-at-last.155/#post-1352. I’ve attached the standards I'm using to this post.

Essentially, I use Peco IL-1 for flatbottom rail, and 3mm Society code 60 bullhead, and their chairs. I’m not sure I was aware of the C&L code 55!

I did eventually manage to sign up to the NGRM forum after some difficulty and posted some photos of my narrow gauge stuff to favourable comment, but I can’t seem to get on it again now. There’s clearly some conflict somewhere. I also eventually realised that the NGRM Facebook page has no connection to the NGRM forum. It would be so much easier if everything was in one place!

Cheers,
Paul
 

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Paul Boyd

Member
Location
Loughborough, UK
Cannot really help too much on 7mm. Paul Holmes, built his 189w Diana’s model track from S scale society code 95 bullhead with their whitemetal chairs, although the latter are now unavailable. Although another thread on here has shown that Martin can 3D print 4mm chairs, so 7mm should be possible for someone.

We have been having a discussion over on the NGRM forum about NG track for 7.83mm gauge. It was concluded that many people use the Peco Code 60 conductor rail, accepting the slightly wider top, but Im going to put two test pieces together, one with the Peco rail, the other with C&L Code 55, which most people generally think is slightly closer for NG purposes in 4mm.

Rich

Ah - I'm back into the NGRM forum! I'll have a bumble around there and see what's what since I was last there.
 
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Marsh Lane

Member
Location
UK
Hi Rich

It sounds like there’s a bit if reinventing the wheel going on! I’m using the standards suggested by Paul Holmes for Borth-y-Gest. I guess you’re not the same Rich that commented on my thread here https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...le-narrow-gauge-layout-at-last.155/#post-1352. I’ve attached the standards I'm using to this post.

Essentially, I use Peco IL-1 for flatbottom rail, and 3mm Society code 60 bullhead, and their chairs. I’m not sure I was aware of the C&L code 55!

I did eventually manage to up the NGRM forum after some difficulty and posted some photos of my narrow gauge stuff to favourable comment, but I can’t seem to get on it again now. There’s clearly some conflict somewhere. I also eventually realised that the NGRM Facebook page has no connection to the NGRM forum. It would be so much easier if everything was in one place!

Cheers,
Paul
Hi Paul,
Long story, short - I totally forgot my username and password for Templot, couldn't find the emails from when I set it up, so set up this account thinking the account must have changed with the change in forum software. Having read your post, I have now just rediscovered that old @Rich account (@Martin Wynne could it be merged with this one, or the posts transferred to this one to avoid confusion? NO problem if not).

I was working pretty much as we'd discussed previously on here (thank for the link to your thread, through which I have now found my original thread again .. and bookmarked it!). There was discussion on my thread on the NGRM forum about various aspects of this project, but talk got onto the size of the rail head. I fully accept it depends on the kind of rail, the specific railway and the time period being modelled. In 4mm scale, I suspect the differences are < 1mm and to the vast majority of people wouldn't be noticeable.

I have got some IL-1 rail as you (and Paul Holmes) originally suggested (although the 3mm Society do Code 60 as well apparently) and Paul has kindly offered me some 3mm Society Bullhead rail. So my current plan is to make up a single track panel (24ft length) using each kind of rail and see which looks the best to my eyes. As you and Paul H have both gone down Code 60 rail I suspect I shall do the same, if only to keep a standard, and certainly Paul's Borth-y-Gest looks very good. The Code 55 from C&L is available as both HiNi and Steel, so I am thinking some of the former for the trial and then compare the three track panels to photographs.

As for standards, totally agree there is no need to reinvent the wheel, what Paul used for Borth-y-Gest is proven to work, so that is what I am working to - or attempting to!

Rich
 
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Martin Wynne

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@Marsh Lane

Hi Rich,

I can't find a way to merge two members into one -- it's probably biologically impossible. :)

I can move all the posts from one topic to another, but first I need to know which of your two user names you want to stay with?

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Martin Wynne

Admin
Location
West of the Severn UK
Info
.
Enjoy using Templot?
Thanks.

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add
helpful replies.
Although another topic on here has shown that Martin can 3D print 4mm chairs, so 7mm should be possible for someone.

Hi Rich,

In the current Templot version 228a you can 3D-print ordinary REA S1 chairs* for any scale, to match any rail section. :)

The rail section details are entered by clicking the set custom rail... button on the DXF dialog.

I had expected rather more feedback by now from folks trying it out.

*but only S1 chairs. I haven't done the special switch and crossing chairs yet.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Marsh Lane

Member
Location
UK
@Martin Wynne

Hi Martin,
I'll stick with the Marsh Lane u/name as its what I usually use. Dont worry about moving things about, I know where it is now, and I'll put a post on that thread from this account later today, so there is a link to me if its ever needed.

Rich
 
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Marsh Lane

Member
Location
UK
Hi Rich,
In the current Templot version 228a you can 3D-print ordinary REA S1 chairs* for any scale, to match any rail section. :)

The rail section details are entered by clicking the set custom rail... button on the DXF dialog. I had expected rather more feedback by now from folks trying it out.
Hi Martin, thanks for that. I have been monitoring the 3D chair/sleeper printing thread. Time isn't on my side the next few weeks and I dont have a 3D printer at home, but a great (reasonably) local company that is 50% the cost of Shapeways that will run 3D prints off from any files, so I am looking to have a go. I may have to try this idea of printing the slotted sleepers too. Could make the building of plain track a far quicker and easier approach.

Excuse my lack of knowledge (and sorry to Paul for the hijack on his thread) but what is an REA S1 chair? I am assuming S1 is the plain track? I think the FR tended to use two bolt chairs, but having said that most of them seem buried under the ballast/sand on the formation so it may not be worth worrying too much!!

Rich
 
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