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  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.

Heaton Norris Junction in EM - understanding crossing angels

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Phil G

Member
Location
New Zealand
Hi Martin,
Just a few questions that are not plug track related:)
Firstly is it possible or practical, to use a ratings plan in a similar way to using an OS map as a background to draw out the track plan?
if so is there a limit on the size of the file, you can use as the background? Next can you open a TIFF file in Templot? Because its a TIFF it's 296 MB in size.

The next thing that is baffling me, is if you have a pair of roads, in this case its the down slow and the down fast lines both branching off (to the right) on a 6 foot way spacing, the the inner track must be taking a tighter radius. Would it then not flow that the crossing angle of the inner track has to also have a tighter vee crossing angle? Especially as the point rodding for the two toes of each turnout only seems to be at about a timber spacing.

My last questions are, if the down slow was in fact a tandem turnout, which it is roads branching to both the left (sidings) and the right (slow road to the Reddish branch)
Could they have the same crossing angle? Or must the second (the right hand branch) be a tighter vee crossing angle?

what I am getting at is, it looks as though the turnout to the siding is a I in 10 regular crossing, but that makes no sense as its to minor road in all cases. So unless I have this wrong the down fast branch will have the tightest radius and the smallest crossing angle !!!
Attached is a screen shot of the rating plan, and a screen shot from OS maps of the same area, noting the ratings plan is upside down in refence to the Map. As a picture or two can speak a thousand or at least many words.

There seems to me little point in starting to make a tandem turnout until I can at least make sense of what I am trying to recreate in EM gauge. If you felt so inclined to have a look, the OS map the grid refence is SJ 88751 91056.
As you can see it all makes for a complicated bit of trackwork, with a scissor diamond and single slip before the 3 way, and a full blown scissor diamond right after the siding of the 3 way turnout, not to mention the ladder crossings to get everything over the up lines.
Why start with something easy when you can dive right in at the deep end so to speak. maybe a perfect test case for a zoom meeting to cover of this level of complexity?


HN junction 3 way tandem and reddish branch from the down roads.jpg



4.JPG


Cheers
Phil
 
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@ Phil G

Hi Phil,

It all looks doable, but I'm in no state today to write detailed instructions, sorry.

A couple of years ago before Zoom I did a live demo about aligning templates over a background map, go to:

https://85a.uk/templot/companion/live_screen_archive.php

and watch Clip A , Clip B and Clip C.

n.b. That uses a screenshot map instead of a tiled map. That no longer works in Windows 11, so I have removed the automated screenshot function from Templot. You can still add a screenshot manually of course, but generally a tiled map is easier.

See also this video: https://85a.uk/templot/companion/get_map_from_the_web.php

I rotated your map for a better match to the rating plan:

heaton_norris_jct.png


Rating plans are normally very accurate, but there is no way Templot can scale it automatically as for the georeferenced maps. You would need to scale it manually by making it transparent and aligning it over the map.

Also bear in mind that the dates are unlikely to match.

I will write some more tomorrow or maybe at the Zoom meeting.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Phil,
I've found something similar with my research for Whitby and although it's certainly not as complex, I have found that often you can fit several different combinations onto these maps, especially if it is complex work. I am not always convinced of their terrible great accuracy when it comes to placing track. I know others disagree.

I had two similar problems- now both resolved- where A and B would work and 99% of people wouldn't know, but a chance photograph even counting timber numbers proved that this was not the correct combination if I wanted it to be absolutely right. So some of it was thinking what would the real World engineers have done and then trying to see if I could make my prediction fit- and eventually it did and every photo I find proves it right.

If something doesn't seem right with the plan then as you interpret it, then maybe it isn't right.
 
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@ Phil G

Hi Phil,

It all looks doable, but I'm in no state today to write detailed instructions, sorry.

A couple of years ago before Zoom I did a live demo about aligning templates over a background map, go to:

https://85a.uk/templot/companion/live_screen_archive.php

and watch Clip A , Clip B and Clip C.

n.b. That uses a screenshot map instead of a tiled map. That no longer works in Windows 11, so I have removed the automated screenshot function from Templot. You can still add a screenshot manually of course, but generally a tiled map is easier.

See also this video: https://85a.uk/templot/companion/get_map_from_the_web.php

I rotated your map for a better match to the rating plan:

View attachment 5376

Rating plans are normally very accurate, but there is no way Templot can scale it automatically as for the georeferenced maps. You would need to scale it manually by making it transparent and aligning it over the map.

Also bear in mind that the dates are unlikely to match.

I will write some more tomorrow or maybe at the Zoom meeting.

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin,
I am glad you say you think it all looks doable, it would have been a real body blow if you had come back with this is too hard :)
As you can see Bower fold lane bridge makes a great place to photo trains. As such I do now have quite a lot of photos, mainly of engines but also showing a lot of the track detail, what is unfortunately missing every time is the toe end of of the three way tandem
(its just to close the parapet of the bridge)
My original question however is really, can you have a three way tandem where both the left and right divergency have the same vee angle ( in this case I believe its 1.10)
cheers
Phil
 
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My original question however is really, can you have a three way tandem where both the left and right divergency have the same vee angle ( in this case I believe its 1.10)
@Phil G

Hi Phil,

You can have, but I don't think that would match this one:

phil_heaton_norris_jct.png


The rating plan has been badly distorted in scanning, so I wasn't able to match it to the map with any success.

The map dates from 19th century pre-grouping days, and all the switches are likely to be loose-heel types. It appears to show a 3-throw turnout in the down slow line. That would be very unlikely to have survived long into more modern times in a running line, and the rating plan shows it replaced with a more conventional tandem, with the access to the goods loops re-aligned accordingly. Likewise by the date of your model (?) all the switches in the running lines would likely have been replaced with REA types.

As a first stab at it, I think the tandem is an E-12 with curviform crossings for the double junction, and a 1:7 regular crossing to the left into the goods loop. That might need a careful look at the checking.

If you have some photos, can you post them here? It would be good to compare with the map.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hi Martin,
to your first question I am modelling the Junction from 1936 to about 1946, as from the research I have done there seems to be little to no change to either Heaton Norris station or the Junction in this time frame,
I agree with your comments about the REA type turnouts I have always viewed the turnouts to be of the REA type.
Most of the photos I have are taken in the mid to late 1950s attached.
from the photos, the OS map looks to be more accurate than the layout you have suggested.
there is no doubt the turnout to the branch is the first set of blades and the one to the double Junction is the second. All the Photos also seem to suggest both the down slow and the down fast branch with only a timber or two from the start of the tie bars.
I think I may have one or two more phots of the 3 way tandem I need to see if there on a stick some where.
Cheers
Phil
 

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Hi Martin,
I also found these which I had forgotten I had purchased back in 2020 it was draw in 1941 after the bomb damage to Heaton Norris goods yard office.
So exactly in the time frame I am trying to model. The original is in Manchester museum. The only down side is its really just a high res camera photo not a digital scan of the original document. The detail however looks to be very good. The last photo is a bit of timber numbering from the vee of the first to the vee of the second and then the last vee, in the 3 way. I have no idea if using timbering like this is of any use giving we can shove timbers.
would welcome your view on that one?
cheers
phil
 

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@Phil G

Hi Phil,

Many thanks for posting those. They are great photos, and the drawing is packed with detail.

The most useful photo is probably this one:

hn_gimpable.jpg


which has a dead straight track square-on to the camera. And at hi-res that makes it an ideal candidate for gimping.

(As usual the photographer waited until there was a boring train in the way before taking a picture of the fantastic trackwork. There are probably hundreds of photographs of that engine, and no doubt some similar ones still exist in preservation or museums. But only a few photos of that trackwork, all of which has long since been lost.)

To see what I mean about gimping: https://85a.uk/templot/martweb/info_files/gimp_track.htm

However, at present I really must concentrate on progressing the Plugtrack, at the present rate of progress it never will get finished. At the start of the year I was hoping to have the crossing chairs done by now, and to see a finished turnout in my hand by Easter. In the grand scheme of things it hardly matters how long it takes, but I know several folks are eagerly waiting to see some usable results. So would you mind if I don't get distracted into working on this junction layout right now?

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hi Martin,
100% are with your comment's about the loco and train, what was he thinking?
The other thing I find hard to get to the bottom of is, most photos are referenced by loco number and not location.

re plug track first 100% agree with that as well.
There are lots of much easier parts I can crack on with, and you know I am also very invested in Plug track myself. Its actually more exciting than building locos :)
cheers
phil,
 
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I often walk past the junction although the view isn't too good until the leaves are down from the trees.
Rob


Hi Rob,
Oh how I wish I could once again do exactly that :)
Even to do something as simple as accurately measure the old LNWR warehouse, as that would give an accurate scale to all the maps I have.
Heaton Chapel is where I was born, so I am modelling close to home. So to speak, but that was a long long time ago.
Cheers
Phil
 
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Hi Phil,

If the warehouse is now Stockport Self Storage, you can measure it to within about a foot using the ruler in Google Earth. I did Smethwick Rolfe Street and a mate's new garden using it. I later went and photographed Rolfe Street Station and photographed it and measured a few bricks, when I later counted the bricks the difference was 9.5 inches, which for my purposes was close enough. When Steve measured his garden it turned out to be a foot bigger, than I measured on Google Earth.
 
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Hi Phil,

If the warehouse is now Stockport Self Storage, you can measure it to within about a foot using the ruler in Google Earth. I did Smethwick Rolfe Street and a mate's new garden using it. I later went and photographed Rolfe Street Station and photographed it and measured a few bricks, when I later counted the bricks the difference was 9.5 inches, which for my purposes was close enough. When Steve measured his garden it turned out to be a foot bigger, than I measured on Google Earth.
Hi Phil,
Yes the LNWR goods warehouse which is a grade 2 listed building, does now come up as a self storage warehouse. I have tried measuring the bricks from the google earth street view, but in truth there are far to many. I did not trust the google earth measuring tool but maybe its more accurate than I though.
cheers
Phil
 
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Phil,

I think it's down to how accurately you can see to set the ends of the ruler.

I will give it a go later and see what I come up with, you can then compare my numbers with what you come up with.
 
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Phil,

Here's my measurements:-

Railway side length 394ft
Roadside length 390ft
North end width 162ft
Southend width 128ft

These dimensions are to the nearest foot.
 
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Phil,

I have downloaded the OS map into Templot at EM gauge, IE. 4mm to the foot. The screenshot gives a different and probably a more accurate dimension of the roadside.

Heaton Norris JNC.png



Take no notice of the templates in the bottom left, that was a previous job.

I hope this is more help. To do the same click on the maps option in Background shapes, there's also a helpful tutorial, there as well.
The ruler is in "utls".
 
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Last edited:
Hi Phil,
Are you saying you can use the ruler utility with a download map? I guess even when typing this the answer is yes. I simply did not release you could do that.
A bit more playing required.
cheers
Phil
 
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Hi Phil,
Are you saying you can use the ruler utility with a download map? I guess even when typing this the answer is yes. I simply did not release you could do that.
A bit more playing required.
cheers
Phil
@Phil G

Hi Phil,

You must set your model gauge and scale before loading the map.

On the ruler, ALT key + left click sets one end position. ALT key + right click sets other end position.

Martin.
 
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Something a bit different, a you tube link, watch at 1 min 36 seconds its the best aerial view of Heaton Norris today, that I have ever seen, and to making it even better. Its also the engine I spent half of my life being involved with its restoration as well. :) On days like this its a pity I am on the wrong side of the world.

What is surprising is the amount of overgrowth network rail seem to allow these days.
cheers
Phil,
 
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Hi Phil,
Lovely video, it even makes Manchester look pretty as they had a sunny day for the trip. The end of the video shows the train steaming through Longsight on it's way back south, just about to pass our local Asda superstore. The loco seems to be steaming well, pity they have to run with the 'banking' loco at the rear but I guess Network Rail wouldn't be too happy for the train to delay things if it had any issues with the steamer.

Stockport viaduct is a fine structure. For those people without a drone B&Q's car park makes a nice vantage point with the added benefit of offering a great view of the planes into/out of Manchester Airport. With the prevailing winds they usually make the final approach over Stockport.

This happened in 1967 :

Rob
 
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Hi Rob,
Interesting you mention Manchester airport (Ringway) as the runway lies on a strange angle so it's normally presenting a cross wind to flights, hence the vast majority of aircraft take off and land in a general East to West direction. With the final flight path right down the Mersey over Stockport Merseyway shopping in the town center.

If your on an approach from the east you fly right over the pennies and can easily see Glossop as it emerges out of the normal dismal grey overcame day :) (In a past life I used to fly into and out of Amsterdam almost monthly) so that route, I know like the back of my hand.
If your coming in from the west (mostly USA traffic) then your quite right, almost directly over the B&Q they do a quite steep right hand backing turn to get back in line with the Mersey for the final approach.

I do also remember the 67 Stockport air crash, although I was quite young at that time. The pilot managed to put the plane down in a very small bit of non built up land. which was in the end a real lifesaver.
cheers
Phil,
 
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Hi Rob,
Interesting you mention Manchester airport (Ringway) as the runway lies on a strange angle so it's normally presenting a cross wind to flights, hence the vast majority of aircraft take off and land in a general East to West direction. With the final flight path right down the Mersey over Stockport Merseyway shopping in the town center.

If your on an approach from the east you fly right over the pennies and can easily see Glossop as it emerges out of the normal dismal grey overcame day :) (In a past life I used to fly into and out of Amsterdam almost monthly) so that route, I know like the back of my hand.
If your coming in from the west (mostly USA traffic) then your quite right, almost directly over the B&Q they do a quite steep right hand backing turn to get back in line with the Mersey for the final approach.

I do also remember the 67 Stockport air crash, although I was quite young at that time. The pilot managed to put the plane down in a very small bit of non built up land. which was in the end a real lifesaver.
cheers
Phil,
Ceretainly seems to be the case these days but on occasions in the dim and distant past , I only landed east to west once all the other times west to east just depends on the weather really.

These days very often see them approaching the runway (East to West) when we are that way.
 
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Hi Rob,
Interesting you mention Manchester airport (Ringway) as the runway lies on a strange angle so it's normally presenting a cross wind to flights, hence the vast majority of aircraft take off and land in a general East to West direction.
Having flown jets commercially for 40 years - and more than my share into Manchester - my only comment on the above is, politely, tosh!
Dave
 
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