Llanastr in 2FS

My finescale narrow gauge stuff got me wondering about actually building a layout in 2FS instead of just using that society’s products for 4mm scale narrow gauge!

Here’s the start of a layout which many people will recognise as Rodney Hall’s ‘Llanastr’ scaled down to 2mm:ft. It’s really intended to see how I get on modelling in 2FS. To ease me in, I bought a couple of Finetrax turnout kits from the 2mm Scale Association. I’m still niggling about the mix of 1:148 and 1:152 but we’ll see how it goes!

Incidentally, my S4n2 modelling isn’t defunct. Although my main narrow gauge layout is being rebuilt to 9mm gauge, I have an idea for a smaller and more realistically manageable S4n2 layout…

 

[Paul Boyd]

Phew, I feel exhausted! My first 2FS turnout from a Finetrax kit. The approach track sleepers are Easitrac.

I’m not keen on the split closure rails/wing rails. I’m also not keen on the fact the the timbers are about a scale 14” wide, but this layout is just to see how I get on with 2FS. One potential problem may be gluing it securely enough to straighten the turnout base - something warned about in the instructions.

My next step is to solder the switch blades to the tie bar and attach dropper wires.

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Phew, I feel exhausted! My first 2FS turnout from a Finetrax kit. The approach track sleepers are Easitrac.

I’m not keen on the split closure rails/wing rails. I’m also not keen on the fact the the timbers are about a scale 14” wide, but this layout is just to see how I get on with 2FS. One potential problem may be gluing it securely enough to straighten the turnout base - something warned about in the instructions.

My next step is to solder the switch blades to the tie bar and attach dropper wires.
View attachment 12967

I only really have experience in going down the soldered route in 2FS, true there is only a limited choice of chairs, but most can be adapted and had to develop my own (very simple) tools for forming the chairs as I couldn't get on with the ones sold by the society. I have used the Finetrax ones in N gauge but really just as an aid, in that I built the common crossings separately just from rail without using the castings, in fact I thought he had modified the kits to remove the casting, perhaps you had an old kit?

 

[Bill Lobb]

Phew, I feel exhausted! My first 2FS turnout from a Finetrax kit. The approach track sleepers are Easitrac.

I’m not keen on the split closure rails/wing rails. I’m also not keen on the fact the the timbers are about a scale 14” wide, but this layout is just to see how I get on with 2FS. One potential problem may be gluing it securely enough to straighten the turnout base - something warned about in the instructions.

My next step is to solder the switch blades to the tie bar and attach dropper wires.
View attachment 12967

If you have a look at the member's section of the 2mm Scale Association website you will find an article on Finetrax turnouts in the section on the New 2mm Finescale Manual. That suggests to ignore the instructions and use one piece of rail to make the wing rails. Apparently for at least the shallower turnouts it can be threaded carefully through. Never tried it myself. I can always sell you another turnout if you would like to give it a try.

 

[Paul Boyd]

I only really have experience in going down the soldered route in 2FS, true there is only a limited choice of chairs, but most can be adapted and had to develop my own (very simple) tools for forming the chairs as I couldn't get on with the ones sold by the society. I have used the Finetrax ones in N gauge but really just as an aid, in that I built the common crossings separately just from rail without using the castings, in fact I thought he had modified the kits to remove the casting, perhaps you had an old kit?

Hi Stephen, my kits don’t have any castings!

 

[Paul Boyd]

If you have a look at the member's section of the 2mm Scale Association website you will find an article on Finetrax turnouts in the section on the New 2mm Finescale Manual. That suggests to ignore the instructions and use one piece of rail to make the wing rails. Apparently for at least the shallower turnouts it can be threaded carefully through. Never tried it myself. I can always sell you another turnout if you would like to give it a try.

Hi Bill,

Whilst I’m still getting to grips with 2FS, I thought it best to follow the instructions! The turnouts on this layout are both B6 so I felt uneasy about trying to do the wing rails in one piece, not knowing how tolerant the base is. Maybe next time with shallower angles!

It also seems that the Code 40 BH from the 2mm SA is a slightly different profile to that supplied in the kits - is that correct? I found that with the rail in the kit, it was very easy to see which was top and bottom but from the 2mm stores, the difference was less distinct. Having said that, I’ve just rather surprised myself by looking back to see that I bought my current stock of rail in 2003

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Hi Stephen, my kits don’t have any castings!

They used to which is why I thought you'd done the crossing rails/wingrails separately.

 

[Bill Lobb]

Hi Bill,

Whilst I’m still getting to grips with 2FS, I thought it best to follow the instructions! The turnouts on this layout are both B6 so I felt uneasy about trying to do the wing rails in one piece, not knowing how tolerant the base is. Maybe next time with shallower angles!

It also seems that the Code 40 BH from the 2mm SA is a slightly different profile to that supplied in the kits - is that correct? I found that with the rail in the kit, it was very easy to see which was top and bottom but from the 2mm stores, the difference was less distinct. Having said that, I’ve just rather surprised myself by looking back to see that I bought my current stock of rail in 2003

Cheers,
Paul

Yes, I'd probably do the same if I ever built a Finetrax turnout. I suppose I should try one sonetime.
I was under the impression that our rail was from the same source as British Finescale. I agree it is not obvious which is the top. One well known 2FS modeller once told me that half the rail on his exhibitoon layout must be upside down because he hadn't realized that there was a difference.
Bill

 

[Stephen Freeman]

I could be wrong but I think the finetrax rail may be normal Nickel Silver but the rail from Bill is definitely HiNi. I have a couple of Double Slips here, which I built sometime ago. I will dig them out and see if I can photograph them. One is a Switched K crossing and one normal, still not sure why I built them, I think I just got carried away when building all the others.

 

[Paul Boyd]

I could be wrong but I think the finetrax rail may be normal Nickel Silver but the rail from Bill is definitely HiNi. I have a couple of Double Slips here, which I built sometime ago. I will dig them out and see if I can photograph them. One is a Switched K crossing and one normal, still not sure why I built them, I think I just got carried away when building all the others.

There’s certainly a difference in colour in that my rail bought in 2003 has a slight yellow tint and the Finetrax kit rail is bright. I’d put the difference down to age, but maybe not. My old rail has got a bit bent and kinked over the years so I think I’ll order more anyway (with the straight rail postage option!) and see what arrives! (Edit - I see we can buy Code 40 BH directly from British Finescale, so I’ll do that.)

There’s a clear difference in profile though between my 2003 rail and the Finetrax kit rail. With the latter, I can see the difference with the naked eye but with my old rail, even with a 15x eyeglass I can only tell by the fact that the top has slightly radiused edges and the foot has squared edges.

 

[Bill Lobb]

There’s certainly a difference in colour in that my rail bought in 2003 has a slight yellow tint and the Finetrax kit rail is bright. I’d put the difference down to age, but maybe not. My old rail has got a bit bent and kinked over the years so I think I’ll order more anyway (with the straight rail postage option!) and see what arrives! (Edit - I see we can buy Code 40 BH directly from British Finescale, so I’ll do that.)

There’s a clear difference in profile though between my 2003 rail and the Finetrax kit rail. With the latter, I can see the difference with the naked eye but with my old rail, even with a 15x eyeglass I can only tell by the fact that the top has slightly radiused edges and the foot has squared edges.

Although I administer sales of track components for the 2mm Scale Association I am not involved in the procurement of said components. Having checked with our sales officer, I am pretty sure that there will be no difference between the rail we supply and that of British Finescale - the Association supplies the rail to him. The tool for drawing the rail was renewed about 2005 so the rail you have from 2003 will not be the same as is currently supplied.

Bill

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Although I administer sales of track components for the 2mm Scale Association I am not involved in the procurement of said components. Having checked with our sales officer, I am pretty sure that there will be no difference between the rail we supply and that of British Finescale - the Association supplies the rail to him. The tool for drawing the rail was renewed about 2005 so the rail you have from 2003 will not be the same as is currently supplied.

Bill

The N gauge kits were sent to me by the client, so a few years ago now but not as far back as 2003, I'm not even sure they were code 40! I do know that the society currently list it as HiNi.

 

[Michael Woods]

Is this going to be a B&M or GWR layout....or possibly something else?

 

[Paul Boyd]

Is this going to be a B&M or GWR layout....or possibly something else?

TBH, it’s really just a trial for 2FS! If anything, it’ll probably veer towards GWR.

 

[Paul Boyd]

Although I administer sales of track components for the 2mm Scale Association I am not involved in the procurement of said components. Having checked with our sales officer, I am pretty sure that there will be no difference between the rail we supply and that of British Finescale - the Association supplies the rail to him. The tool for drawing the rail was renewed about 2005 so the rail you have from 2003 will not be the same as is currently supplied.

Bill

Hi Bill,

It was your earlier comment about not being obvious which is the top that swung me towards buying from British Finescale - the rail in the Finetrax kits does have a clear top and bottom even without magnification so I’m hoping the plain lengths will be the same. If nothing else, they should be straighter than my slightly battered old stock

I did wonder if tooling had been replaced since 2003 though.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Bill Lobb]

Hi Bill,

It was your earlier comment about not being obvious which is the top that swung me towards buying from British Finescale - the rail in the Finetrax kits does have a clear top and bottom even without magnification so I’m hoping the plain lengths will be the same. If nothing else, they should be straighter than my slightly battered old stock

Yes, that was part of the reason I started to doubt myself and went back to check. Mind you, I am not sure how old is the rail I was using. I might not have been looking at the latest version.

Bill

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Just to re-assure you the current society rail definitely has a discernable foot and head.

 

[Paul Boyd]

My first bit of track laid! Holes were first drilled in the baseboard for the dropper wires and operating rod. After some experiment I used aliphatic resin to stick the track down which seems to hold the curved turnout base flat. I have a roughly 400mm square, 12mm thick slab of toughened glass which was used to hold everything flat whilst the glue dried.

An unexpected side effect is that the rails were blackened by the glue fumes! Not a problem though.

 

[Paul Boyd]

When I came home from work today, I was disappointed to see that the warping in the track base had returned. Now, about 4 hrs later, it’s flattened out again! I’m speculating that the cork base absorbed moisture from the glue making it swell slightly, thus allowing the base to warp, but during the evening (heating on) it’s dried out, pulling it all flat again. I’m just going to keep an eye on this for a few days to see what happens before laying the second turnout. I wished some time ago that I hadn’t laid the cork and I am prepared to rip it all up and try again on a solid surface if necessary. After all, this layout is a bit of an experiment!

And talking of turnouts…. I’m not really happy with the appearance of the Finetrax base, not least of which is the square-on timbering! Some time ago I bought the Association ABS timber strip and chairs so I might have a go with that system. It seems that a plastic sub-base will be the way to go with that to keep all the timbers in place. I’ve already started redrawing the Templot plan!

 

[Stephen Freeman]

When I came home from work today, I was disappointed to see that the warping in the track base had returned. Now, about 4 hrs later, it’s flattened out again! I’m speculating that the cork base absorbed moisture from the glue making it swell slightly, thus allowing the base to warp, but during the evening (heating on) it’s dried out, pulling it all flat again. I’m just going to keep an eye on this for a few days to see what happens before laying the second turnout. I wished some time ago that I hadn’t laid the cork and I am prepared to rip it all up and try again on a solid surface if necessary. After all, this layout is a bit of an experiment!

And talking of turnouts…. I’m not really happy with the appearance of the Finetrax base, not least of which is the square-on timbering! Some time ago I bought the Association ABS timber strip and chairs so I might have a go with that system. It seems that a plastic sub-base will be the way to go with that to keep all the timbers in place. I’ve already started redrawing the Templot plan!

Personally I prefer the soldered variety, the only really difficult bit I find is forming the chairs, I have adapted a couple of screwdrivers and made a small jig, which speeds things up, I have built various configuations of 3 ways, slips etc

 

[Paul Boyd]

Well, the turnout base is still flat which is a good sign. Although I've already built the second turnout and its approach track, I'm going to try building another using the plastic chairs and timber strips - just to see how I get on! I'm still waiting for Wayne at British Finescale to post my rail order - I ordered that before confirmation that the "new" rail from the 2mm SA is identical. I have enough left over from the two Finetrax kits to get me started though.

I also feel another order to Bill at the 2mm Scale Association stores coming on...

 

[Newport_Rod]

It looks a very interesting project. Good luck and I hope you get plenty of fun out of it

 

[Paul Boyd]

Another little update, timbers laid for the second turnout. These are cut from the 50mm ABS strips sold by the 2mm Scale Association and glued to a 40 thou plasticard base using butanone. Holes were cut in the base where I'd need to solder underneath. The template was first secured to the base then carefully cut to leave the timber end marks visible, then slices of template used to mark rail positions here and there. I suspect the first turnout will be replaced with this method - in fact, it pretty much has to be because of the difference in overall height! I’m just waiting for a fresh batch of rail to arrive, which is on the way now.

The 40 thou base is chosen to allow a ballast shoulder in the appropriate areas. The approach track will use the Association Easytrack sleeper bases but those won't be positioned until the rail is inserted. The short length of exit sleepers is glued using Revell poly cement - it holds the polypropylene(?) base securely enough! Butanone wouldn't work here.

 

[Phil O]

Hi Paul,

Is it possible to shift your exit track slightly to the right? On the prototype it would be nigh on impossible to pack under the chairs.

 

[Paul Boyd]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your feedback. Now you mention it...

I've had a shuffle, in consultation with David Smith's book, and think this might be better.

 

[Phil O]

Paul,

Much better!

 

[Paul Boyd]

Paul,

Much better!

Thanks!

 

[Paul Boyd]

Further developments in my 2FS experimenting!

Whilst waiting for the crossing planing jig and a few other bits and bobs to arrive I improvised using the Scalefour Society EMGS jig and a feeler gauge jammed in to make up the difference. This worked surprisingly well! (In fact, the 2mm Scale Association planing jig is out of stock - I'll keep an eye on the website for new stock.)

The next step was to work out how to use the crossing jig - the photos in the instructions weren't quite clear but it became apparent once I'd put a few bits of rail in! I found a couple of problems with the design of the jig:-

• The rail wasn't held securely upright, being only held by the head.
• Trying to hold four bits of rail accurately aligned for soldering I found impossible!

My solution to both problems was to drill the jig, tap 10BA and use a couple of bits of relatively thick brass to clamp the rails. This worked well. The plates to be soldered to hold the whole thing together are on an etch which clips over the exposed rail foot. This is a brilliant idea, and one I haven't seen for 4mm scale. I've already checked the spacing of the little plates against the timbers.

In the photo above, the rail bottom right is a pre-curved wing/closure/switch rail. Pencil marks on the jig show the wing rail end and flare start, and I can see that one wing rail needs to be shortened slightly. One little niggle is that the jig has no allowance for the flared ends on the wing rail - the rails needs to be flared (scale 42", or 7mm) before the plates are soldered on. I'm still pondering this... I'm also not sure what the groove is for on the right hand side of the jig.

 

[Hayfield]

PaulVee

Have you access to a FDM printer, if yes you could print a Vee filing jig, they work in both 4mm and 7mm scale so I don't see why they would not work in 2mm scale

 

[Paul Boyd]

PaulVee

Have you access to a FDM printer, if yes you could print a Vee filing jig, they work in both 4mm and 7mm scale so I don't see why they would not work in 2mm scale

Hi John,

I do have an FDM printer and for some reason it didn’t even occur to me to print a filing jig! I’ll have to give that a go.

 

[Hayfield]

Paul

A couple of things, firstly you can print these jigs for about £1 far cheaper than those on sale at the main societies. Secondly I had similar results with filing off center with the EMGS one piece jigs. Templot jigs are 2 piece so in theory the rail should be held square

Martin has over the years has sorted out the widths and depths for 4mm scale. We found I had to experiment a bit with the settings due to the shrinkage of the filament in 7mm scale. To work properly in 7mm scale the rail has to be a tight fit probably due to the mass of the rail being filed, something which will be very much reduced with smaller 2mm scale rail

The switch rail filing jigs are so much easier to use than the one I brought from the EMGS, and in my opinion make a much better finished article

Do have a go as unless I missed something, I cannot remember seeing any in 2mm scale

John

 

[Bill Lobb]

The next step was to work out how to use the crossing jig - the photos in the instructions weren't quite clear but it became apparent once I'd put a few bits of rail in! I found a couple of problems with the design of the jig:-

• The rail wasn't held securely upright, being only held by the head.
• Trying to hold four bits of rail accurately aligned for soldering I found impossible!

My solution to both problems was to drill the jig, tap 10BA and use a couple of bits of relatively thick brass to clamp the rails. This worked well. The plates to be soldered to hold the whole thing together are on an etch which clips over the exposed rail foot. This is a brilliant idea, and one I haven't seen for 4mm scale. I've already checked the spacing of the little plates against the timbers.



In the photo above, the rail bottom right is a pre-curved wing/closure/switch rail. Pencil marks on the jig show the wing rail end and flare start, and I can see that one wing rail needs to be shortened slightly. One little niggle is that the jig has no allowance for the flared ends on the wing rail - the rails needs to be flared (scale 42", or 7mm) before the plates are soldered on. I'm still pondering this... I'm also not sure what the groove is for on the right hand side of the jig.

Hi Paul
The intention in those assembly jigs is to solder the V first - I am assuming that you did not as you mention 4 pieces of rail. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The planing jig sold by the Association includes one slot to hold the rail for filing and two more to hold two rails at the correct angle to solder the V together. See:

https://www.2mm.org.uk/products/images/s1-207.jpg

I have never used one from any other society or the Templot one so have no clue how they compare. My apologies if that is an absolutely standard design.

The 2mm Association "Track" book recommends packing the rails with slips of paper to stop them tipping over. I do like your solution though.

If using the assembly jig the wing rail flares do need to be formed afterwards. In "Track" again (Well worth getting IMHO) Geoff Jones suggested using thin nosed pliers. These are normal pliers with a short length of the tips ground down so that they will fit into the flangeway.

The aluminium jig is of course an excellent heat sink so soldering the chairplates into place can be difficult. The slot is simply to reduce the volume of aluminium in an attempt to mitigate this.

Bill

 

[Paul Boyd]

Hi Paul
The intention in those assembly jigs is to solder the V first - I am assuming that you did not as you mention 4 pieces of rail. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The planing jig sold by the Association includes one slot to hold the rail for filing and two more to hold two rails at the correct angle to solder the V together. See:

https://www.2mm.org.uk/products/images/s1-207.jpg

I have never used one from any other society or the Templot one so have no clue how they compare. My apologies if that is an absolutely standard design.

The 2mm Association "Track" book recommends packing the rails with slips of paper to stop them tipping over. I do like your solution though.

If using the assembly jig the wing rail flares do need to be formed afterwards. In "Track" again (Well worth getting IMHO) Geoff Jones suggested using thin nosed pliers. These are normal pliers with a short length of the tips ground down so that they will fit into the flangeway.

The aluminium jig is of course an excellent heat sink so soldering the chairplates into place can be difficult. The slot is simply to reduce the volume of aluminium in an attempt to mitigate this.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the info. When building pointwork in 4mm, I do solder the V first using 243°C solder which as near as practical to silver soldering that I can get. As I don't have the Association jig, I can't use it for soldering the V first

I keep thinking about getting the Track book as I'm conscious that some of my trials and tribulations could be avoided by having read that - I feel like I'm probably trying to reinvent the wheel. I'll likely order a copy in January.

My problem with the flares is that they start under the last chair plate so I'd need to not solder that one until the crossing is off the jig and the flares formed - which worries me! I like the idea of grinding of a pair of pliers to form them.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Phil O]

Hi Paul,

I have the 2mm track book and found it to have some useful information in it, having been hand building track for 40 odd years as well as 12 inch to the foot for 30 plus years, it's not an essential.

 

[Rob Manchester]

Paul,
I have the book too even though I don't go near 2mm scale. Information relevant to track is always useful.

Rob

 

[Bill Lobb]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the info. When building pointwork in 4mm, I do solder the V first using 243°C solder which as near as practical to silver soldering that I can get. As I don't have the Association jig, I can't use it for soldering the V first

I suppose I was adding insult to injury there. Sorry

I keep thinking about getting the Track book as I'm conscious that some of my trials and tribulations could be avoided by having read that - I feel like I'm probably trying to reinvent the wheel. I'll likely order a copy in January.

I find it useful in explaining how the stuff sold by the Association can be used. The original author, Geoff Jones, was very meticulous in either trying techniques himself or talking to people who had done so.

My problem with the flares is that they start under the last chair plate so I'd need to not solder that one until the crossing is off the jig and the flares formed - which worries me! I like the idea of grinding of a pair of pliers to form them.

Shouldn't the flares start clear of the chairs? Just a thought. My grasp on real track is fairly rudimentary so I could be wrong.

Bill

 

[Paul Boyd]

I suppose I was adding insult to injury there. Sorry

I find it useful in explaining how the stuff sold by the Association can be used. The original author, Geoff Jones, was very meticulous in either trying techniques himself or talking to people who had done so.

Shouldn't the flares start clear of the chairs? Just a thought. My grasp on real track is fairly rudimentary so I could be wrong.

Bill

Hi Bill,

For GWR track, the flares are 42" long with relatively short wing rails. I've decided to ignore that for the time being As per my post that's just about to follow, I have now built my first crossing assembly!

 

[Paul Boyd]

More progress! With the rails in the Association crossing jig and the alignment checked about a dozen times, there was no getting away from it - I had to solder the thing up! The sequence was:-

• Tin the underside (relative to the jig) of the chair plates with 145°C solder.
• Flux the V and drop a few 0.5mm solder balls in place.
• Solder the V.
• Flux the rail foot then position the chair plate.
• Position a few solder balls on top of the rail either side of the chair plate.
• Heat the chair plate until the solder flowed.
• Remove the assembly from the jig, cut off the etch surround and clean up.
• From the top, add a few more solder balls and flux to fill the joint more fully.

I used Powerflow flux which is one I normally steer clear of as I wanted it to hold the solder balls in place, but I might try my favoured Green Label next time. I used a 50W temperature controlled iron which worked OK but next time I'll use my 70W iron. Solder balls are a new thing for me! I use solder paste professionally but had never come across loose solder balls before.

One raw crossing assembly! This also shows the tags on the chair plate etch to align it with the rail foot.

This was further checked with a 0.5mm feeler gauge through the flangeways and I was ever so pleased to find it fitted snugly through the crossing without any effort in both flangeways, and without any slop or gaps. The jig did its job!

The next bit was to shape the crossing nose in situ, and for this I use a 0.015"/0.38mm thick file. After a bit more cleaning and polishing, I plonked it on top of the timbers!

I haven't yet formed the wing rail flares and for now I'll ignore David Smith's book and make the flare a bit shorter than the prototype.

I do find this challenging for my eyesight - I think I've hit the limit! It's not a case of magnification but visual disturbances when using an eyeglass for a while making things look pixelated - I think this is related to the jaggies/ocular migraine I get under certain conditions. Basically, I need to not be tired and not have had too much caffeine before doing this kind of work!

 

[Phil O]

Paul,

I have a 2nd pair of plain glasses that are X3 of my prescription, which makes a big difference to what I can see when modelling. I know of one gent who also a pair at X4.5 of his prescription, I've not quite got that bad yet!

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Being myopic certainly used to help but these days, advancing age and decreasing lens accommodation means that I have to use a pair of Magnifyeyes or similar for modelmaking. As far as 2FS track is concerned, when not using kits (hardly ever) I admit to preferring the soldered method. Solder the preformed chairs to the sleepers/timbers and then the rail to the chairs, it saves having to mess about pre-building the crossings etc.