LNER crossover timbering

[Keith Armes]

I'm just about to start on some LNER pointwork, a bit out of my usual GWR comfort zone. I've had a look at the NER society book , and it shows timbering for all sizes of crossover without any through timbers. Did the LNER really do this everywhere, or is this only for secondary duties?

Any thoughts?
Keith

 

[John S]

Is the book LNER standards or NER standards? They probably were not the same.

John
from 33820 St Ciers sur Gironde

 

[Keith Armes]

It's the Standard Railway Equipment 1926 book, that reproduces some of the drawings produced for the Big Three, not including the GW.
Keith

 

[Keith Armes]

Hi all,
I have just discovered the topic on this subject in the old archive. Looks as if it answers my query. Sorry to waste peoples
time!
Keith

 

[Martin Wynne]

I'm just about to start on some LNER pointwork, a bit out of my usual GWR comfort zone. I've had a look at the NER society book , and it shows timbering for all sizes of crossover without any through timbers. Did the LNER really do this everywhere, or is this only for secondary duties?

Any thoughts?
Keith

Hi Keith,

The NERA reprint is only a selection from the drawings, not all of them. For example the drawing for ordinary S1 chairs is missing.

The drawings on pages 102 and 103 are clearly labelled "Short Timbering For Crossover Roads". This clearly implies that somewhere else there are drawings for "Long Timbering For Crossover Roads", otherwise they would simply be called "Timbering For Crossover Roads".

I believe the short timbering option was intended as an economy measure for secondary lines and yards, and possibly used more widely during wartime because of material shortages.

Note also that the drawings are stamped LNER NE AREA from the York drawing office, i.e. the former NER region. It follows that other pre-group areas of the LNER probably had their own drawings. The LNER was split in two at nationalisation, so was presumably already organised as two separate former areas in the LNER era. So what's in the NERA reprint can't be assumed to apply to the former GNR and GER lines.

On the other hand, the GWR is known to have used much more long timbering than other companies for what it called "blocked crossing work", so you can't assume a straight copy from GWR drawings.

The Standard Railway Equipment (SRE) designed by the REA in 1925 was concerned only with interchangeable components and geometry -- switch rails, vee rails, special chairs at designated chair spacings. Each railway company used them in their own way to create their pointwork. Matters such as timbering can't be assumed to be the same for all companies using the REA designs.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Keith Armes]

Thanks Martin,
That confirms what I found in the old topic, notably from yourself.
Keith

 

[Martin Wynne]

Thanks Martin,
That confirms what I found in the old topic, notably from yourself.
Keith

Hi Keith,

Really? I don't remember writing it. Or anything else these days.

How about a link? I don't want to find that I've contradicted myself.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Keith Armes]

Here's where I found it.
Timber shoving - Baffled beginners - Forums - Templot Club (85a.co.uk)
http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2986&forum_id=22&highlight=LNER+timberingI'm having trouble extracting a link!
Keith

 

[Martin Wynne]

Thanks Keith. For once I seem to be agreeing with myself.

On the old forum, right-click on the link top-left of a post (in this case "10th message"):

https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2986&forum_id=22#p21206

But I really must crack on with getting the archive finished, because posting these old links on this new forum will eventually fail.

The above link will then be (but not yet):

https://85a.uk/templot/archive/topics/topic_2986.php#p21206

cheers,

Martin.

 

[S-Club-7]

The NERA reprint is only a selection from the drawings, not all of them. For example the drawing for ordinary S1 chairs is missing.

The LMS Society has a copy of "LMS Drawings of Standard Railway Equipment Permanent Way 1928" available from its download page:
http://www.lmssociety.org.uk/assets/pdfs/permanentWay1928.pdf

This more complete version does have the S1 chair, arrangements for three-throw switches (T chairs anybody?), as well as chairs for 85lb rail. Pages 38b et seq show LMS crossover timbering with short and skewed timbers.

 

[Keith Armes]

That's really useful, Dave. It fills in the missing parts of the NERA reprint.
Cheers,
Keith

PS. are you Robert Rayner's brother, where we may have known each other from the South East Essex Railway Soc. many years back?

 

[S-Club-7]

Guilty as charged

 

[Tony W]

It doesn't get much better with the BR period either as I discovered when trying to work out the P&C timbering arrangements for my 1960s Ex GER area layout of the ER. I found the best approach was examining as many photos as possible although usually the photographer didn't have track builders in mind when taking the picture.
Regards
Tony.

 

[Tony W]

Hi Keith.
Here are a few pictures of how I eventually decided to timber two crossovers for my layout Brimsdown.
I don't claim these to be the definitive answer to LNER timbering, but they satisfy me.

This is for a 1 : 8 Flatbottom Crossover currently under construction, but I don't think the methods changed much over the years, only 2 through timbers.

This is a 1 : 6.5 crossover and has 4 through timbers. They are different because of the different crossing angles involved.
In both cases for a crossover with two turnouts, just mirror the turnout about the central axis.
Thirdly here is the other end of the single slip above going into the goods siding.

Being wider spacing than standard, but still substandard, no through timbers are used.
Hopefully these may be of some help.
Regards
Tony.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Tony,

Thank for the pics. They all show a slip, which naturally has equalized timbering, forming one end of the crossover. Did you consider using equalized (skewed) timbering also for the turnouts? It usually makes the timbering layout easier to keep the same style of timbering all through. That's my understanding of the normal practice, but it's easy to find photos of exceptions.

The double junction of page 101 of the NERA reprint has equalized timbering for the turnout V-crossings. But in the diamond-crossing, the inner V-crossing has timbers A-X-Y-Z given a reverse skew -- presumably to allow better interleaving of the plain track exit sleepers. There are only 2 long timbers (standard 19ft-6in double-line timbers) in the layout. That diagram makes an interesting exercise in Templot timber-shoving.

It's a good example of an irregular diamond, having V-crossings 1:11, 1:8, 1:7. But designed in the "modern" method to use only standard crossing angles. This means there isn't a constant ruling curve through the diverging route, it is a mixture of radii with a short straight section through the K-crossings (which are on the limit at 1:8 for fixed crossings, so curving through them not allowed).

In the next program update 227a (if I ever get it finished) I have implemented a new function which makes it possible to set a standard crossing angle and adjust the radius to fit:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Tony W]

Hi Martin.
I have used equalized timbered turnouts in similar situations as this can and often does make the timbering easier, but from the photos I have of the area that does not appear to be the case in this instance. It isn't always that easy to tell however. It should be noted that with this arrangement the widest gaps between the chairs are only in the crossover road and not under the main running roads.
Regards
Tony.

 

[Phil O]

Hi Tony,

Without wishing to be to picky, there are a few sleepers that are going to be very difficult to pack under the chairs. Note sleepers not timbers, a gap of 3 inches is about the barest minimum that you can get a bar or Kango packing piece in.

Cheers

Phil.

 

[Keith Armes]

Thanks to everybody for their contributions.

I have decided that the time for making rather than planning has arrived! These points are going to Peter Kirmond for a York Station layout he is building. You can see what he is planning on RM web here. I've attached my box file below. There may be more through timbers than necessary, but since the pointwork is built on the bench and then sent to somebody else to lay I think more rather than less is the order of the day.

Keith

 

[Tony W]

Hi Tony,

Without wishing to be to picky, there are a few sleepers that are going to be very difficult to pack under the chairs. Note sleepers not timbers, a gap of 3 inches is about the barest minimum that you can get a bar or Kango packing piece in.

Cheers

Phil.

Hi Phil.
Duly noted. The worst offender is in a goods siding, so had little traffic over it.
Regards
Tony.