Making timbering bricks

[Cransford]

Having had a little practice creating 'bite sized' sections for printing, I thought it was time to bite the bullet and make a start on the layout proper.

Now, it's going to be me and I know Martin is going to be pulling his hair out that he's told us endlessly how to.................but! I'm struggling to break down a length of track into sections that fit on the printer plate with couplers. I've used Steve's 11/23 instructions as a start making (far too many!) assumptions on how it goes.

I started by shortening the overall length to first printable item, stored it as a yellow brick, added the connecting clip through to adding paired clip, and changing colour to red to add next clip. I then opted to assume I could go back to original template and shorten to next segment and repeat process (using green as next colour). But that's where it unravels as all I seem to do is finish up with the red segment turning green with red connectors!?

Once again, fully appreciating the fluidity of the design and not being able to find anything that seems to fit in the forum, help on the correct process would be gratefully received. Of course there is a turnout beoynd and I'm going to need to understand how parts of the two seperate template can be melded together!

Thanks in advance,

Paul

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Can you post (use [attach files]) your box file so that we can comment?
Steve

 

[Phil O]

Paul,

I think that Martin covered it in one of the Zoom meetings, but I have no idea which one.

 

[Cransford]

Apologies, realised I'd forgotten to add box file.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Cransford

Hi Paul,

The first thing to say is that you don't work with your existing trackplan templates.

Duplicate a group of them, and drag them out into fresh air somewhere to trim them and assemble them into timbering bricks for your printer.

Some of the process was covered in this Zoom meeting:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/zoom-meetings-recordings.643/post-9127

Probably other Zoom meetings too, although I can't find which ones. The full list of Zoom recordings is at:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/zoom-meetings-recordings.643/

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Cransford]

Martin,

Thanks as always for the direction! I'll have a watch tomorrow.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Cransford]

Well, frustration is the name of the day, almost literally!

Prompted by Martin, I extracted a small group (length of plain track with a turnout on the end of it) in order to start getting some printing blocks sorted. Thinking it would be such a jolly wheeze, I seemed to be getting the hang of creating two successive blocks of the same colour so that I could pull one around onto a single print base having seen that done in one of the zoom meeting videos. I was also following my nose at trying to generate clips. Having watched the zoom meeting videos, whilst mention was made that clips might be covered, nothing happened!

So, complete frustration that trying every way I couldn't get the clips to save together. I was even thinking far to far ahead about how clips can be placed across the joint between plain line and turnout when you might not know how wide the gap was?

I appreciate the comments that Martin has made about the readiness of clips function, but would ask if there was a chance of having the subject covered in a zoom meeting?

Many thanks in advance,

Paul

 

[Martin Wynne]

how clips can be placed across the joint between plain line and turnout when you might not know how wide the gap was?

@Cransford

Hi Paul,

Don't put a clip there. The closed-up timber spacings at rail joints make it difficult to fit a clip between the timbers.

A good rule of thumb is not to have brick boundaries aligned to the template boundaries, even though that's a bit counter-intuitive.

There are 2 things to learn:

1. the easy bit -- how to make paired clips and attach them to timbering bricks.

2. the tricky bit -- how to fit them between the timbers. That seems the logical place for them, but actually they are much better and more easily located outboard of the track if you have room.

I will make a bit of silent video, and add the commentary in a Zoom meeting -- trying to do both with the old codgers in attendance is almost impossible.

That's two requests for how to make timbering bricks today -- one on RMweb. It's all been covered before, Steve posted a tutorial I remember. It all needs updating, but I'm too tired to do it tonight, sorry.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Cransford]

Martin,

No problem, you deserve your rest and beauty sleep! I'm a little tied up on domestic duties tomorrow so later in the week will be fine, as long as you have the will power!

I did think about clips outboard of the track, but again the thought of how you get them to meet across a "new" block worried me. I'm sure it'll be alright on the night!

Paul

 

[Cransford]

Martin,

Having gone back to basics and hurled the bigger hammer, I am cautiously claiming success in adding clips to the first part of track plan!

With the calmness of a new day, I followed my nose through a practice session, the first part of which has just finished printing (interesting to know that I can print 60 foot panels!). With that success I'm a fair way through adding clips to the track plan hived off from the main. Only fly in ointment is that I should have deleted the sleeper tangs at the brick joints when starting out but easily solved with knife/scissors! Still, Rome wasn't built in a day!

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Cransford]

A quick photograph of the first brick.

Unfortunately had a problem with second part, I think the printer needs re-levelling and that's a job for tomorrow!

 

[Martin Wynne]

Unfortunately had a problem with second part, I think the printer needs re-levelling and that's a job for tomorrow!

Hi Paul,

Are you using the glue-stick? I have found it makes a big difference. There is one supplied with the printer.

Just a few dabs on a cold bed, and smear it out into a thin film with a damp sponge. It will dry as the bed heats up.

Which profile are you using? Attached below is my suggested profile for timbering bricks in 4mm scale. It sets the bed to 70 degC for the first layer, to allow for any thermal drag between the heater/sensor and the top surface. Also switches on ironing for the timber tops at a sensible flow rate. Also significantly reduces the flow rate on the first layer for a cleaner result.

Remember after importing a profile into Cura you need actually to select it for use in the drop-down list.

Changing to blind sockets makes for a much cleaner first layer in 4mm scale.

Profile is for Elegoo Cura 5.6 for the Neptune 4.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Cransford]

Martin,

Good morning to you.

After a couple of trial prints with the printer 'out of the box', I've been using the glue stick on probably every second print. Funnily enough I'd used it just prior to starting this print, never mind these things do happen!

You kindly provided the printer profile earlier and I've been using it since. Your comment on blind sockets has confused me slightly as I'm sure you recommended open sockets for plug track. If not, not a problem as I'll only be printing the sleeper bases proper once I'm happy with trials. Domestic duties will delay things until later though.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Hayfield]

I have a wet J cloth in a plastic bag, after a time its impregnated with glue, every now and again needs a bit of added water, but just before every print I give the print bed a good wipe ensiring the bed has a good (glue) sheen and now and then a bit of a top up with the glue stick is required

 

[Cransford]

I have a wet J cloth in a plastic bag, after a time its impregnated with glue, every now and again needs a bit of added water, but just before every print I give the print bed a good wipe ensiring the bed has a good (glue) sheen and now and then a bit of a top up with the glue stick is required

That's quite a good idea, it'll certainly pass muster with swmbo to avoid use of domestic tools!

Second print is on the boil at present and looking good, but that belies a fraught afternoon of snags! Lesson learnt is to have a few memory sticks to hand (don't ask!) and using much more glue than I thought would be necessary. Onwards and upwards!

 

[Cransford]

Well, the second print has finished and looks reasonable in the main (apart from slight lifting on one link). Having trimmed with a degree of butchery, the connectors seem to work well;

They are a very tight fit and so there is an argument to ease the size of the tommy bar if possible (Martin, I've not looked yet!) but as the bricks lie flat on the worktop it might be overlooked. I might even make a start on printing proper over the weekend.

 

[Martin Wynne]

They are a very tight fit and so there is an argument to ease the size of the tommy bar if possible (Martin, I've not looked yet!) but as the bricks lie flat on the worktop it might be overlooked.

@Cransford

Hi Paul,

You can change the connector clip sizing in the settings. However if you have everything set nicely to the plug track defaults, the connector clips work just right without needing any adjustments -- in 4mm scale at least.

Zooming in on your photo I think I can see significant over-extrusion, leading to the over-size tommy bar. This is typically what happens if you use one of the default profiles supplied with the printer.

Is this a Neptune 4 ? Which profile are you using? My suggested profile for Elegoo Cura 5.6 is attached below.

Remember that after importing it, you won't actually be using it until you select it in the drop-down list on the right of the screen:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Cransford]

Martin,

Thanks for the reply.

Having split the bricks (photo below), I can't see anything that might be over-extrusion, but your knowledge is way out there!

I have a Neptune 4-Pro and am using your printer profile (you may recall I had to backtrack from Cure 5.8 to 5.6 when I started off and so took the advantage to delete the original profile so only have yours in Cura 5.6 - it might be 'odd' but it seems to work!).

Whilst I again appreciate the answer will lie in the forum, could I ask what recommendation there is for gluing the bricks to a plywood baseboard? As I'm getting closer to some actual track laying, there's a need to prepare.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[James Walters]

Hi Paul,

An alternative to glue would be pins or better still small screws through the side flanges. Servo screws are ideal straight into plywood, although are too short if using an underlay such as cork. Drill a clearance hole though the flange first though to prevent the screw thread from tending to delaminate the 3d printed layers. The 'tommy bar' clips have a pin hole already.
The advantage of screws being that you'll be able to lift the bricks if need be whilst you are putting it all together. The rail adds quite a bit of stiffness to the bricks so you wont need many screws to hold the brick firmly. Gluing the ballast will secure everything permanently when the time comes.
I wonder if a 'flange screw hole' tick box might be a future possibility?

That said, you asked for a glue suggestion. Copydex seems to be popular hassle-free choice, although my preference would be a contact adhesive such as Evostick Timebond.
https://amzn.to/409X2ig

Best,

James

 

[Hayfield]

My wife used to be a graphic artist, she showed me how to use Copydex (or any other Latex glue)

Firstly as a contact adhesive for sticking foam to baseboards, coat both sides, when totally dry put in place
Secondly to glue track bases to foam, I use it neat out of the bottle and lightly add weight to the track to ensure all over adhesion
Thirdly dilute 50/50 with water to wet and glue ballast as you would with PVA

 

[Cransford]

Gentlemen, many thanks for your advice/suggestions, something to ponder over with a cip of tea!

 

[Cransford]

Well, what a frustrating day!

I was going to have a nice day printing a few bricks proper (circa 1h 30m each for 180mm long bricks), but have finished up with one print and a pile of scrap!

Having cleaned the printer bed and re-levelled (from yesterday's endeavours!), I got a good first print but the second failed at one end after about ten minutes. Thought it might be a lack of some adhesive so applied some more and tried another print. Sadly, started to fail in another position after ten minutes or so.

Tried cleaning print bed again, a video on You Tube suggested hot water/washing up liquid so tried that and bed came up surprisingly clean. Good spread of adhesive and tried again. Sadly print failed again at one end after around ten minutes. As far as I can tell the nozzle is working well and no obvious blockages/dirt.

Have thrown the towel in for the day but would welcome thoughts on what is going awry?

Printer is Neptune 4-Pro running Martin's profile and has performed very well up to now.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Hayfield]

Paul

I have had a couple of similar experiences to your own and in the end ended up reprinting the parts required, but in 7mm scale this is doable. With 4mm scale I would just restart after

1, let the bed cool
2 re-prime the bed each time, before the bed heats up. I never clean my bed fully
3 for me its usually at the ends so I have more glue around the edges than the middle
4 have a wet J cloth which overtime becomes glue bound so it just needs a bit of water every now and then, I keep the cloth in a plastic bag

Using a Neptune 4

 

[Martin Wynne]

Well, what a frustrating day!

I was going to have a nice day printing a few bricks proper (circa 1h 30m each for 180mm long bricks), but have finished up with one print and a pile of scrap!

Having cleaned the printer bed and re-levelled (from yesterday's endeavours!), I got a good first print but the second failed at one end after about ten minutes. Thought it might be a lack of some adhesive so applied some more and tried another print. Sadly, started to fail in another position after ten minutes or so.

Tried cleaning print bed again, a video on You Tube suggested hot water/washing up liquid so tried that and bed came up surprisingly clean. Good spread of adhesive and tried again. Sadly print failed again at one end after around ten minutes. As far as I can tell the nozzle is working well and no obvious blockages/dirt.

Have thrown the towel in for the day but would welcome thoughts on what is going awry?

Printer is Neptune 4-Pro running Martin's profile and has performed very well up to now.

Cheers,

Paul

@Cransford

Hi Paul,

What is the finished timber thickness? If using all the Templot 556a defaults in 4mm/ft scale, it should be around 3.55mm when cold. Or very close. If it is much more than that, the nozzle is too far from the bed after auto-levelling.

Maybe you need to reduce the Z-offset a fraction after auto-levelling. I found the need to do that to get accurate timber thicknesses. If you did adjust it, did you remember to click the Save icon afterwards (top-right of keypad screen)?

There shouldn't be any settings differences between the standard Neptune 4 and the Pro version, but I have read that the Pro tends to need some adjustments to the metal rollers. Is there any play in the movement of the head across the width? Make sure the metal bars are clean and well greased.

Is the gravity Z-backlash working correctly? The auto-levelling will fail if not. There should be some play between the brass Z-nuts and the frame, and the Z-rollers should be free enough that you can manually lift the cross arm a fraction on each side, and it will drop back instantly under its own weight. Don't have the Z-rollers set too tight.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Richard]

Hi Paul,

I have the Neptune 4 max and had problems with larger prints until I watched this:

I now do not attempt to level the bed until it has been on for at least 30 min. When I started looking closer I used an infrared thermometer to check the temperatures and found that the hottest part was not the centre but offset slightly. There was quite a big difference around the bed (up to 10 degrees C if I remember correctly) but the important thing I believe is stability. Once it reaches a stable temperature, even though there is a variation across the bed, then it should stop flexing due to temperature change. I have not had any bed adhesion problems since levelling after 30 minutes. I would imagine that the stability could be affected by it's environment as well with draughts, opening and closing doors etc.

It is worth a try if you haven't tried it already. It also follows that I don't start a print until at least 30 minutes after setting the bed temperature.

Richard.

 

[Cransford]

Well, another day more frustration!

From Martin's reply, I found a video showing how to adjust the z-axis, which I followed closely and got three of four rollers moving with similar resistance (I got the impression from other searches that you won't get all four rolling!) and no problems with the backlash. I then re-levelled the plate after making sure I got similar resistance to a sheet of paper and when auto-levelling had finished the same resistance at home point. I then made sure to save via the button Martin pointed out.

From Richard's reply, unfortunately dabbling with the in-depth coding is too far above my pay grade and so I heated the bed and left it cooking for 30 mintues before starting a 'full size' print. It seemed to be going so well....but,calamity struck after a few layers;

I'd made sure there was (what I thought anyway!) a good application of adhesive, but wonder whether the lack of adhesion had found any 'lacking spots', despite a rub over with damp cloth. So, as a further experiment, some more application of adhesive (not sure how much can be too much, but any port in a storm!) and then a quicker pre-heat of about ten minutes. I then printed the straight 30 foot trial panel;

Although I was expecting doom and gloom, amazed that the print was good. Especially as the trial length hasn't got blind pockets and so should have been harder to print well?!?

On the basis of the above, I'm thinking that printing shorter length panels might be a better solution. In terms of time it'd be the same time (30 foot trial panel took 45 minutes whereas 55 foot-ish panel took 1 hr 30-odd minutes). Frustrating but pending a trial of multi-track panel tomorrow looks the way to go.

In terms of thickness, all successful panels are 3.75mm thick. Appreciate they're over size by 0.2mm but concerned dropping z-axis may cause more problems?

Further comments always welcomed.

Paul

 

[Martin Wynne]

In terms of thickness, all successful panels are 3.75mm thick.

@Cransford

Hi Paul,

I think that's your problem. Even if it isn't, it's wrong and needs mending.

Drop the Z-offset by about 0.1mm initially (not all of the difference). i.e. make it more negative. Don't forget to press save afterwards.

What is your actual Z-offset figure?

Make changes until the finished print is around 3.55mm - 3.60mm when cold (put it in the fridge for a few minutes). It's best to do all your testing on a short print with just half a dozen timbers - saves time.

Don't pay any attention to levelling with paper -- the results are almost meaningless compared with measuring the actual print and adjusting accordingly. Generally I have found that when you have got that right, trying the paper under the nozzle is very tight and can't be removed without manually lifting the head a fraction.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Richard]

Hi Paul,

When you said you left it on for a full 30 min before printing had you re-levelled it first? That is, doing the levelling after 30 minutes at which time it may have reached stability across the bed and then all printing thereafter using that saved levelling after a 30 min warm up period.

I haven't altered my code either. I have just levelled it when the temperature stopped changing near the edges which was about 30 minutes. I have not used glue or anything else, just an occasional wash with warm water and a drop of fairy liquid.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Paul,

When you said you left it on for a full 30 min before printing had you re-levelled it first? That is, doing the levelling after 30 minutes at which time it may have reached stability across the bed and then all printing thereafter using that saved levelling after a 30 min warm up period.

I haven't altered my code either. I have just levelled it when the temperature stopped changing near the edges which was about 30 minutes. I have not used glue or anything else, just an occasional wash with warm water and a drop of fairy liquid.

@Richard @Cransford

Hi Richard,

You are using the Neptune 4 Max which has a much larger bed than the standard Neptune 4 which I'm using. Also I believe the Max bed is segmented -- meaning multiple heaters and sensors, so that only the area in use is heated. This must cause some differential expansion and distortion of the bed plate?

I haven't found any need to pre-heat the bed manually before levelling. The auto-levelling pre-heats the (normal, unsegmented) bed and the extruder before levelling, and after that I make any adjustments needed by measuring the finished prints.

Hi Paul, I believe you have the Pro model which also has a segmented bed? However the much smaller size compared with the Max probably means less distortion, and presumably the auto-levelling pre-heats all segments equally. I doubt there is any need to pre-heat for 30 minutes on the Pro.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Cransford]

@Cransford

Hi Paul,

I think that's your problem. Even if it isn't, it's wrong and needs mending.

Drop the Z-offset by about 0.1mm initially (not all of the difference). i.e. make it more negative. Don't forget to press save afterwards.

What is your actual Z-offset figure?

Make changes until the finished print is around 3.55mm - 3.60mm when cold (put it in the fridge for a few minutes). It's best to do all your testing on a short print with just half a dozen timbers - saves time.

Don't pay any attention to levelling with paper -- the results are almost meaningless compared with measuring the actual print and adjusting accordingly. Generally I have found that when you have got that right, trying the paper under the nozzle is very tight and can't be removed without manually lifting the head a fraction.

cheers,

Martin.

Martin,

Thanks for the advice, I was being led by the 'suggestions' that paper needs to slide out when levelling. Possibly something that might need including within the guidance notes as a lot of printer buyers willset up per instructions and you tube videos.

Actual offset figure from yesterday's trials was 0.930, and that has been increased as suggested to 1.030 with trial print currently on the boil (interestingly all previous trial prints measured at around 3.60 and so at top of acceptable limit, but hey-ho it's another day), will report back later.

Paul

 

[Cransford]

Hi Paul,

When you said you left it on for a full 30 min before printing had you re-levelled it first? That is, doing the levelling after 30 minutes at which time it may have reached stability across the bed and then all printing thereafter using that saved levelling after a 30 min warm up period.

I haven't altered my code either. I have just levelled it when the temperature stopped changing near the edges which was about 30 minutes. I have not used glue or anything else, just an occasional wash with warm water and a drop of fairy liquid.

Richard,

Thanks for the reply. Thinking back, it was a case of levelling and then pre-heating but as I'd had some failed prints already, bed was warm when levelling carried out.

Having mulled things over, I'd agree with Martin that the 4-Pro's bed is small and that pre-heating for any period of time shouldn't be needed, and the nozzle is too high. It's now clear in my mind that the nozzle will have been high as the plastic seems to drop onto the plate and possibly not sticking rather than being pressed onto it and sticking.

Cheers, Paul

 

[Cransford]

Martin,

Thanks for the advice, I was being led by the 'suggestions' that paper needs to slide out when levelling. Possibly something that might need including within the guidance notes as a lot of printer buyers willset up per instructions and you tube videos.

Actual offset figure from yesterday's trials was 0.930, and that has been increased as suggested to 1.030 with trial print currently on the boil (interestingly all previous trial prints measured at around 3.60 and so at top of acceptable limit, but hey-ho it's another day), will report back later.

Paul

Martin, et al,

Well, a much better day. I think I'm there now!

I have reduced the z-axis a further 0.01 and it now reads 1.040, and have been printing full length bricks with no bother (a third one has just started straight after the second with no additional adhesive applied) and a check shows thickness in range 3.55 - 3.60 (second closer to constant 3.55).

So, as usual, many thansk to one and all for the support.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Martin, et al,

Well, a much better day. I think I'm there now!

I have reduced the z-axis a further 0.01 and it now reads 1.040, and have been printing full length bricks with no bother (a third one has just started straight after the second with no additional adhesive applied) and a check shows thickness in range 3.55 - 3.60 (second closer to constant 3.55).

So, as usual, many thansk to one and all for the support.

@Cransford

Hi Paul,

Glad you got going.

A tip: next time you switch on the Neptune, check that the Z-offset is still showing -1.040

I have seen reports that some early versions of the Elegoo firmware failed to save the Z value between sessions, even after pressing the Save icon. I haven't seen that myself, but it's worth checking.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Cransford]

Well, printing is coming along now. Pleased to report that what is probably one of the most complex bricks has printed without issue although it did take 6 hours!

In answer to Martin's query, the z-axis value is saved successfully when I've checked on restarting the printer so no worries in that direction.

 

[Cransford]

Hello Houston, we have a problem!

Following Martin's advice I copied small groups of templates from main design and moved to a quiet corner and started process of generating bricks, which has gone reasonably well. I've even been adding templates from a second small group copy and thus far have created almost thirty brick files. I had saved the box file regularly, but only latterly realised I'd omitted to save the background bgs file at the same time (hands up, this might have something to do with it!).

Major problem this morning was trying to preview the 3D file of switch panel in platform area. Having pressed button it took much longer than normal and then came up with the error message 'Unable to display DXF/STL file'. Just for fun I've also tried to preview a previuosly created file and got the same message so worry I've corrputed the whole thing?

Latest box and bgs files attached.

Suggestions warmly welcomed!

Paul

 

[Martin Wynne]

the 3D file of switch panel in platform area

@Cransford

Hi Paul,

Please can you explain the meaning of the above words? If you mean this template -- you have not stored it:

All the rest seems to be working here:

Did you maybe forget this and try to export the whole thing in one go:

Or maybe you set a brick colour for which there is no brick?

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Cransford]

Martin,

Apologies if not being clear, first paragraph was intended to show how I got to where I am currently. Working through your comments;

1] I've saved the switch panel brick to colour of the clips/lines [a side note, there's no way to edit the colour of these that I can see?]. Tried to do pre-view, after veritable age returned same error message.
2] Baffled! I tried to preview the same brick and got same error messsage!
3] How very odd, that's a setting I've not (consciously) changed, but it was showing as 'all templates'. Changed it to timbering brick only and tried to preview again. Sadly, no joy just the error message.
4] Shouldn't be this as I selected colour of the switch panel brick before saving the template so not a 'missing' colour.

I have a feeling a re-run is on the cards.

Paul

 

[Martin Wynne]

a side note, there's no way to edit the colour of these that I can see?

@Cransford

Hi Paul,

You can change the colour here:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Cransford]

Well, you're going to like this, especially as you are such a supporter of Microsoft .

As I was thinking about maybe starting over, it occurred that 'I wonder what might happen if I reboot laptop'. Well, that worked well! I have no idea how or why but things have returned to normal[ish]!

Many thanks for the suggestions and direction, back to the bricking!

Cheers,

Paul