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TEMPLOT 3D PLUG TRACK - To get up to speed with this experimental project click here.   To watch an introductory video click here.   See the User Guide at Bexhill West.

  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed. Some of the earlier pages of this topic are now out-of-date.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.
  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.

3D printers - messin' with resin

Quick reply >
Hi Martin,

Many thanks for all the great information.

If I might ask, how are you eliminating the rail inclination? Are you leaving the bottom of the rail in the same position and pushing the top out, pushing the bottom in or rotating the rail so the bottom moves in and the top moves out?

Also, are you leaving the base full size or are you reducing its length at all?

Cheers,
Andy
 
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Thank you Martin.

Re. the length question; if you kick the foot inwards you could make a case that says everything on the outer part of the the chair should move inwards too. It's only about a third of an inch so it's probably better not mess with it and leave the base and screw holes as the prototype dimensions.

Thanks for the swift response. You are either up very late or very early :)

Andy
 
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You are either up very late or very early :)

I've no idea. During lockdown life doesn't fall into 24-hour chunks any more. I've just had my main meal of the day. I also like to watch your CNN news these days, so that puts me 5 hours behind the UK.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Pity the poor pattern maker :) Getting there, but it's slow going.


Screenshot (7).png
 
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The foundry finally got around to casting a sample for me.

Screenshot (11).png


I'm still not entirely happy with it but I think I now know how to get the best out of the tool. Of course a lot of this is completely academic. Much of this detail is beyond the resolution of the printer at 1:76.2 scale but it's interesting to see what the tool can do. This is built from five quite basic sub-components and the tool does most of the hard work to combine them into something that looks like a casting. (The surface was about as close as I could get to rusty cast iron in an hour or so.)
 
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Time flies when you're having fun :)

I thought I was going to have to laboriously produce a whole series of crossing chair models to cover the range of turnouts I need but I think there's a shortcut. It looks like I'll need crossings from 6.5 to 8.25 (eight in all) and that's quite a large number of models to cover the entire range. However, 7.25 is very close to the mid point and the jaws only need to be rotated a maximum of plus or minus 1.1 degrees from there to cover the range that I need.

The plan is to create left and right jaws for a 7.25 crossing and combine them with the appropriate length base-plate as I populate the Templot template in situ. The jaws will be aligned correctly with the rails which means that they could be rotated around a degree from normal to the base-plate. I doubt if that will be noticeable at 1:76.2

As I produce them where required I can also combine them into blocks and save them in a library for future use (assuming I actually remember to do do that).
 
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Here's a model that shows the various bits, stylized for 00. The baseplate with riser, screws and buttresses is combined with the jaw piece. The combination is then mirror imaged to produce the complete chair.

Before it is combined with the baseplate the jaw piece is rotated to align precisely with the inner face of the rail on the Templot turnout template.

Screenshot (14).png
 
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A crossing.

Screenshot (15).png


I should really have made a slob and briquette slab and bracket but this was a bit simpler :)

It's probably not immediately obvious but this was constructed entirely from four basic elements - "blocks" in Turbocad speak.
There are two jaw blocks. One skewed clockwise and the other anti-clockwise and there are two base blocks similarly skewed. That's all the blocks I need to create a range of turnout crossings from 6.5 to 10 and possibly more if I don't want to be too picky.

It's a bit warm here at the moment. 80F in my workshop at 10:30 PM!

Andy
 
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It's probably not immediately obvious but this was constructed entirely from four basic elements - "blocks" in Turbocad speak.
There are two jaw blocks. One skewed clockwise and the other anti-clockwise and there are two base blocks similarly skewed.
@AndyB

Hi Andy,

Looking very good, but where are the keys?

Are these chairs available as DXF blocks in ASCII format? How could I incorporate them into the Templot DXF output? Are the individual entities readable so that they could be included in the STL output?

It could save me a lot of time to use your good work in Templot, if you are happy about that, but I'm very fuzzy about how to integrate it. :confused:

You can see my current DXF export code in dxf_unit.pas here:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/t1-files.192/post-1739

It's a text file readable in any text editor, but preferably (free): https://notepad-plus-plus.org/

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hi Martin,

It's way beyond my curfew time so I'll have to reply properly tomorrow. That said the important point here is there is a lot less to this than meets the eye :giggle:

Cheers,
Andy
 
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Hi Martin,

Attached is the Turbocad dxf export for one of the blocks. Some of it looks readable but there's a big chunk of code that could be binary.

You'll likely be able to open it with your version of Turbocad so you can at least see the structure.

Cheers,
Andy
 

Attachments

  • VBase.DXF
    1.3 MB · Views: 196
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I better explain in a bit more detail what I'm doing here in case I'm creating the impression that it's simpler than it really is.

The Y, X, A, C and D chairs are all made from two blocks. (B is slightly different because it has additional jaws.) However, I have to manipulate them in Turbocad to make each complete chair.

The steps are:

Position a base block on the imported Templot turnout drawing
Rotate the base block to align with the rail/timber
Position a jaw block at the same location
Rotate the jaw block to align with the rail
Explode the base block (blocks are protected - this unlocks them)
Explode the jaw block
3D add the exploded base and jaw to form a single part
Slice off the excess of the part that goes beyond the center-line of the crossing
Copy the part along the slice plane to create the second half of the complete chair (this could be saved as a new block for future turnouts with the same geometry)

It probably sounds a bit more complicated than it really is. In practice it only takes a few mouse clicks but the point is it does rely heavily on the CAD tool (Turbocad in this case).
 
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After I wrote my previous post it occurred to me that it might be possible write a script to do all of that. It's pretty mechanical after all. It turns out that some versions of Turbocad support something called "Ruby Scripting" about which I know absolutely nothing :)

What I'm thinking is it might be possible to mechanize the generation of all the crossing chair models required for a whole range of turnout angles. The idea would be to have a script spew out a complete library of models that could either be placed manually on a Templot turnout or automatically substituted for marker references generated by Templot itself.

Obviously I'm "thinking out loud" :D
 
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@AndyB

Hi Andy,

Many thanks for the file and info. But I'm struggling to reconcile all that with what I'm already doing. I can see the model in TurboCAD but I can't make much sense of the actual file contents.

What's puzzling me is why you have generated the screw-top in such fine detail:

andy_screw_top.png



compared with mine:

templot_screw_top.png


Bearing in mind that even in 7mm scale you need a magnifying glass or a close-up lens to see the chair screw details, such fine detail seems completely wasted. It means your file is 1.3MB and a full chair is going to be something like 2.5MB. The STL format is a flat format, it doesn't as far as I know support blocks, so at 2.5MB per chair the file size for a full print is going to be massive. Templot's STL files are already 10 times the size of the corresponding DXF file (which uses blocks).

That's all a bit academic because at present I haven't the faintest idea how to convert your file to an STL in Templot. I could presumably integrate chunks of your DXF into Templot's DXF without understanding it, but I can't do that for the STL. I was hoping your file would be a much simpler DXF (such as can be imported into the background shapes for example).

At present I can see a road forward from where I am now to where I need to be -- plug-in chairs for every common size of switch and crossing, adjustable for rail section and tweakable for gauge, and with corresponding sockets in the timbers. Now that I have implemented the direct STL output, there is no actual technical problem, it is just the long and hard grind of doing it. The switch chairs are fairly straightforward, but for the crossings we have to be able to chair, say, a 1:7.38 V-crossing or 1:4.68 K-crossing. All doable, but I may be gone for some time. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hi Martin,

I believe the large file is created by Turbocad when it generates the DXF from native file format. The native file which also includes a lot of other stored blocks is 660KB. If you can allow file extension .tcw I can post it although it might not be compatible with your version of Turbocad.

Could you perhaps produce an algorithm in Templot that does something similar to what I described above to generate the crossing chairs "on the fly" rather than have them all pre-stored? The tricky bit is producing the rotated jaws but perhaps that might be done by "anding" an overwide jaw with a solid profile that's aligned along the long axis of the chair.

Cheers,
Andy
 
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Could you perhaps produce an algorithm in Templot that does something similar to what I described above to generate the crossing chairs "on the fly" rather than have them all pre-stored?
@AndyB

Hi Andy,

Some confusion there. Everything in Templot is already generated "on the fly" when you do a DXF/STL export, nothing is stored in advance. What is stored is only the actual data (height of a jaw, centres of screw-heads, radius of corners, etc.). That would change if I could find some way to use your pre-drawn blocks.

TCW and DWG now attachable (not all types are shown on the visible list).

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hi Martin,

T'cad file for the crossing chairs attached. They were created using the four blocks also shown in unexploded form - ClBase, ClJaw, VBase and VJaw.

If you can't open it with your version I should be able to produce a compatible file.

Cheers,
Andy
 

Attachments

  • Crossing2a.tcw
    1.7 MB · Views: 212
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@AndyB

Thanks Andy. But my TurboCAD won't open it. I get the message "no matching filter" which seems odd given that TCW is TurboCAD's own native format.

How about trying again with a DXF, with this option:

dxf_r14.png


(Setup button on Save dialog after selecting DXF file type.)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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This one:

turbocad_about.png
 
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Here it is for TC2017

Same message -- "no filter".

Is this a suitable time to mention that Templot still opens BOX files right back to 1999? :)

Martin.
 
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@AndyB

Thanks Andy. I can open that one and it looks good in TurboCAD (apart from the missing keys):

andy_chairs_tc1.png


andy_chairs_tc2.png



Unfortunately the file format includes 3D stuff of which I have no understanding at all. It's essential that I can export STL files from Templot in addition to the DXF, so that folks can print directly from Templot. I might be able to find some open-source Pascal code to convert from R14 to STL, but I'm not hopeful.

I keep feeling that I'm in a different 3D printing world from everyone else? :confused: I can create 3D stuff programmatically and put it in a DXF, and also now in an STL:

index.php


And export it from Templot, and use it in Chitubox and Simplify3D for resin and filament printing.

But when it comes to being compatible with what anyone else is doing in Fusion360, AutoCad, etc., I'm completely lost and nothing I do seems remotely compatible. I can't even follow all the terminology. It must be my age. :(

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Ah yes, the keys. A tiny platelayer will be along presently to bash them in :)

I'm using SMP rail so there would have to be a variety of different keys for different rail profiles. I plan to print the crossing without keys then muck about with chair designs to get the best fit. But before that I have to complete my fume cabinet and that's unlikely to happen soon because we are about to break high temperature records here.

Remember my U-channel rail heads? I have not given up on that idea. It might make sense to use that technique for the "frog". A sort of poor man's version of Wayne's cast NS version :). The advantage is it should work for any old crossing angle I can generate. It could also simplify check-rail construction although I don't see why they can't be simply printed along with everything else.

I think I'm going to tweak the seat model a bit. Probably going a bit overboard but I'd like to see a filet between the seat and the baseplate.

Cheers,
Andy
 
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message ref: 1863
But when it comes to being compatible with what anyone else is doing in Fusion360, AutoCad, etc., I'm completely lost and nothing I do seems remotely compatible. I can't even follow all the terminology. It must be my age. :(

Hi Martin,

I'm fairly confident you will not agree with me :) but in my not entirely humble opinion you are building a trap for yourself by trying to go straight from Templot to stl. I think it would be a much better investment of your time if you were to create methods that allowed Templot users to add their own chair/clip/spike designs to Templot 2-D designs.

There are all kinds of CAD products already available and anyone can create chair models if they are willing to put in a little bit of effort. Adding all of that to Templot is simply reinventing a wheel that already exists in many forms. And that's not to mention the support nightmare you are creating for yourself. I know you'll say you won't support it but you and I both know damn well you will try to.

It ain't worth it!

I hope you realize I am saying this because I have your best interests at heart.

Cheers,
Andy
 
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I think it would be a much better investment of your time if you were to create methods that allowed Templot users to add their own chair/clip/spike designs to Templot 2-D designs.
@AndyB

Hi Andy,

Yes, that will be possible. Provided users can specify such details as overall chair base dimensions, corner radii, number of screws/bolts, the bolt centres, height of jaws, width of ribs, etc.

For more complex chairs, the DXF export will include the block locations so that anyone can add or replace their own chair designs in a CAD program if they wish to and are able.

There are all kinds of CAD products already available and anyone can create chair models if they are willing to put in a little bit of effort.

I can't. I've tried. I spent several hours in Fusion360 and got absolutely nowhere. The basics are easy -- draw a rectangle, extrude it to a cube, put a slot in one side. Make another. Merge them together. But represent a GWR L1 Bridge Chair? Forget it. I can write the code faster.

I suspect there are quite a few Templot users in the same boat. Happy to produce complex track plans in Templot and export an STL file, which they can then use straight off for their own 3D printers or ask friends to print for them. But not design and fit the chairs themselves.

Thanks for your thoughts. It won't be the first time I've reinvented a wheel. If you want a square one, what other option is there? :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Hi Martin,

Didn't I tell you you wouldn't agree with me? :D

Clearly I must be a rocket scientist. (It really isn't that hard but I do admit people are reluctant to learn or pay for new tools. Software's free, i'n'it?)

It might be nice if you could include an oriented pseudo-block for substitution at the intersections with the rail and timber CLs but it's not that difficult for anyone to do that for themselves.

Anyway, keep plugging on, but if it becomes too much of a chore please use me as an excuse.

Cheers,
Andy
 
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It might be nice if you could include an oriented pseudo-block for substitution at the intersections with the rail and timber CLs but it's not that difficult for anyone to do that for themselves.

But that's already there. See my previous post.

I'm getting more and more confused. I think I should just go away and do the coding, and leave the forum and program support to fend for itself.

Martin.
 
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This is my latest version. Added some fancy filleting and chamfering that's probably a waste of time in 00 scale but the model is drawn full-size imperial and should scale. I've attached the native TurboCAD file and also the DXF version for anyone who wants to play along.

Screenshot (16).png
 

Attachments

  • Crossing7.dxf
    6.5 MB · Views: 265
  • Crossing7.tcw
    3.7 MB · Views: 209
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This was originally Andy's topic about practical resin printing of track.

I muddied the water by posting details of the settings for 3D file exports from Templot. Sorry about that.

I have moved all those posts to a separate topic in the "Templot talk"section:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/3d-printed-track-from-templot.218/

leaving this topic in the "Models and methods" section about the workshop stuff. Which should be less confusing. Or not. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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I've been following this thread and the subsequent 2.28 specific thread with some interest, even though I have no space for a resin printer. I can't help wondering if filament printing will go the same way as Betamax tapes - the quality from resin seems to be much better than filament. At work, I use an AM (additive manufacturing, aka SLS, selective laser sintering) company for a lot of 3D printed stuff but even that doesn't seem to give detail as fine as resin printing. Or maybe it's just the company we use!
 
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I've been following this thread and the subsequent 2.28 specific thread with some interest, even though I have no space for a resin printer. I can't help wondering if filament printing will go the same way as Betamax tapes - the quality from resin seems to be much better than filament. At work, I use an AM (additive manufacturing, aka SLS, selective laser sintering) company for a lot of 3D printed stuff but even that doesn't seem to give detail as fine as resin printing. Or maybe it's just the company we use!
@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

Having both a FDM (filament) printer and SLA (resin) printer I wouldn't want to lose either of them.

The FDM is great for strong functional parts -- for hobbies such as model engineering, model aircraft, drones, spare parts for bikes and boats and lawnmowers. But also maybe a working gearbox in 0 gauge? unbreakable signal posts and telegraph poles? a large-scale lever frame? a turntable deck? point-motor brackets? or even the whole point-motor? all manner of modelmaking tools and jigs.

SLA is much better for fine detail on small-scale models, but unless you go high-end with expensive equipment and resins not so good for strength and working parts.

And when it comes to domestic user-friendliness there is no contest. You could easily have a FDM machine in the corner of a living room if using PLA polymer. The slight smell from hot PLA is actually quite pleasant -- it's made from sugar cane and non-toxic. When it's finished printing, that's it -- remove your new part.

Whereas an SLA printer is only for a workshop area (and preferably one of its own). The resin is toxic, smelly and unpleasant. The process is messy. When it's finished printing that's only the start. You then have to leave it dripping for 10-20 minutes or so (wafting the smell around in the process), before transferring it to a tub of IPA solvent (also smelly) for washing. Don't have any source of UV present (such as sunlight) until all liquid resin has been washed off. Intricate model parts will need careful brush washing in the IPA to remove all traces of liquid resin. At this stage the model is still soft and delicate, so needs careful handling. Finally it needs UV exposure to fully cure it and harden it. But the results are great!

The machine which is going to lose out to resin printing in this hobby in my view is the Cameo cutter. It's been a great disappointment. When I next need some signal box window frames, or a panelled coach side, I feel sure the resin printer would do a better job. Without the option to use it as a pen plotter, I think it would be in the bin by now. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Probably a case of "horses for courses". Resin is great for detail but FDM is better for structural things and usually faster too. There is (or should) be no need for post-processing with FDM.
 
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@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

Having both a FDM (filament) printer and SLA (resin) printer I wouldn't want to lose either of them.

The FDM is great for strong functional parts -- for hobbies such as model engineering, model aircraft, drones, spare parts for bikes and boats and lawnmowers. But also maybe a working gearbox in 0 gauge? unbreakable signal posts and telegraph poles? a large-scale lever frame? a turntable deck? point-motor brackets? or even the whole point-motor? all manner of modelmaking tools and jigs.

SLA is much better for fine detail on small-scale models, but unless you go high-end with expensive equipment and resins not so good for strength and working parts.

And when it comes to domestic user-friendliness there is no contest. You could easily have a FDM machine in the corner of a living room if using PLA polymer. The slight smell from hot PLA is actually quite pleasant -- it's made from sugar cane and non-toxic. When it's finished printing, that's it -- remove your new part.

Whereas an SLA printer is only for a workshop area (and preferably one of its own). The resin is toxic, smelly and unpleasant. The process is messy. When it's finished printing that's only the start. You then have to leave it dripping for 10-20 minutes or so (wafting the smell around in the process), before transferring it to a tub of IPA solvent (also smelly) for washing. Intricate model parts will need careful brush washing in the IPA to remove all traces of liquid resin. At this stage the model is still soft and delicate, so needs careful handling. Finally it needs UV exposure to fully cure it and harden it. But the results are great!

The machine which is going to lose out to resin printing in this hobby in my view is the Cameo cutter. It's been a great disappointment. When I next need some signal box window frames, or a panelled coach side, I feel sure the resin printer would do a better job. Without the option to use it as a pen plotter, I think it would be in the bin by now. :)

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin

Ok, maybe resin printing isn’t yet generally practical for many of us! I certainly wouldn’t want all that palaver in my little flat!

For me, I think I would still use Shapeways for the time being, for fine detail stuff. Expensive, but at least practical. I still need to knock up a few designs for printing, and I’m fortunate in that respect in having access to Creo Parametrics, although it’s one of the least intuitive bits of software I’ve ever used! The company I use for 3D printing for work isn’t suitable for hobbyists.

Shame about the Cameo though!

Cheers,
Paul
 
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I certainly wouldn’t want all that palaver in my little flat!
@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

I didn't want to put you off completely!

The Elegoo Mars printer has a footprint of only 8" square and is easily movable. You could maybe take it into your bathroom and find a space for it when you want to use it? The resin tray is removable, so could stay in there. With the door shut and the window open, or an extractor fan, you should be able to keep the smell from pervading the rest of the flat. It has a 1m (easily extended) low-voltage lead to a separate power brick, so no worries about having a mains socket in a bathroom. Just a thought. :)

cheers,

Martin.
 
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@Paul Boyd

Hi Paul,

I didn't want to put you off completely!

The Elegoo Mars printer has a footprint of only 8" square and is easily movable. You could maybe take it into your bathroom and find a space for it when you want to use it? The resin tray is removable, so could stay in there. With the door shut and the window open, or an extractor fan, you should be able to keep the smell from pervading the rest of the flat. It has a 1m (easily extended) low-voltage lead to a separate power brick, so no worries about having a mains socket in a bathroom. Just a thought. :)

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin

It hasn't put me off completely! The bathroom is out though due to size - there's no flat surface unless I put a board over the bath, which would then need to be stored somewhere when not in use - my flat is somewhere around 350sq.ft. No window in the bathroom, and the extractor fan is useless!

Coincidentally (!!) the subject of in-house 3D printing came up in our daily Teams meeting at work this morning! Resin printing would be ideal for trying designs out although we wouldn't be able to print some of the larger stuff in one piece. I might just have to convince the boss that what the company really, really needs is an Elegoo printer :cool:

Cheers,
Paul
 
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Just a comment on 3D resin printer fumes. I've had a Phrozen Shuffle for over two years and recently added a Phrozen Sonic Mini 4K. When I originally got the Shuffle, I was aware of comments about fumes and started building a cabinet to house it with an exhaust fan routed outside. When the Shuffle arrived I hadn't appreciated that the door hinged upwards which wouldn't work with my cabinet, so I started printing with no provision for fume control and extraction and did not suffer any ill effects at all. The Sonic Mini is the same. It is actually housed in the cabinet built for the Shuffle but only to provide a stable temperature environment in winter months, otherwise no ill effects when it is used. I use Phrozen resins. So it might be worth trying to get up close and personal to a working 3D resin printer to see if any fumes affect you before buying one. If you are like me, fumes might not be a problem.

Jim
 
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