Modelling LNWR loose-heel turnouts?

La Cathedrale

Member
Location
Sussex, UK
Hello all,

I've realised that my layout plan for Minories, set in the 1890s on the LNWR would not be using REA B switches, and instead using straight cut loose heel switches. I have also established (albeit "secondary research" from forums) that if not interlaced, the timbers would be 14" wide along the length of the turnout using narrow chairs side-by-side instead of bridge chairs. The timbers would also be in 12" increments instead of the more usual 6".

However, I've got myself into a right pickle trying to decode the actual LNWR Pt. Way drawings and how they relate to Templot BH of RB xft Straight Heel Switch.
1638721789692.png

Example from 1909 LNWR pw diagram

Tweaking the timbering data from a 12' straight heel switch has given me what looks like (to me!) a fairly unique looking turnout:
1638721857411.png

BH 9' heel switch with a 1:6.8 crossing angle

However interesting and unique looking, the Templot crossing doesn't actually match up with the drawing. I'm not sure if it's a nomenclature thing, but the length of the points between the joint and the tip noted on the diagram, does not seem to correspond to the description of the switch type in Templot, i.e. for a 9' heel switch, the point(?) is more like 11':

1638722277499.png


I double checked this and for a BH or FB 12' straight heel switch, that distance is more like 17'6" - clearly I am misunderstanding something! Checking the diagram using pixels per inch with track gauge as reference, the 'points' measurement between those dotted lines is correct.

The other thing which is confusing me a little is that the timber spacing under the blades is on a 2' pitch, and those either side of the heel joint and stock rail joints on a 1'9 pitch, and those under the closure rails on a 2'8" pitch

This is 100% a limitation on my ability to input the correct data into Templot, but before I try to reverse engineer from drawings, has someone already done this?

Thank you,
William
 
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Martin Wynne

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@La Cathedrale

Hi William,

For the LNWR switches ignore the straight switches in the list. Instead click the set custom switch... button and enter the dimensions from the drawing.

The straight switches in the list use a virtual heel position short of the rail joint, whereas most early pre-grouping switches had the switch heel at the rail joint.

2_051019_260000000.png


More about this in these links:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/length-of-straight-heel-switch.279/post-2651

https://85a.uk/templot/archive/topics/topic_2776.php#p19351

p.s.
with a 1:6.8 crossing angle

I believe the angle in the drawing is 1ft in 6ft-8in, i.e. 1:6.67 -- that's probably CLM, but I don't know the LNWR practice.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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La Cathedrale

Member
Thread starter
Location
Sussex, UK
Thank you Martin - looks like I need to join up with the LNWRS.

That notwithstanding, I have amended the timber spacing and come up with something a little closer - the rail joints are mismatched compared to the timber locations as I don't have that information:

1638730170826.png


To be 100% clear: as long as the point that I have the last fixed chair is above the flangeway clearance for the relevant gauge, I'm OK?
 
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Location
Sandbach, Cheshire
Info
Builder of Finescale Signals in 2mm scale to 7mm scale, Trackwork, Turnouts and Layouts.
I might or might not have the information you need but if you want to do it to LNWR practice then joining the society is a must. I am pretty sure that they do a fairly mighty tomb on Trackwork (of which I have had sight of) however, the period chosen also throws in the problem of rail and what chairs to use. A bit of a compromise will probably be needed. I will see what info I have though I doubt I can post it due to copyright issues etc.
 
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Location
Sandbach, Cheshire
Info
Builder of Finescale Signals in 2mm scale to 7mm scale, Trackwork, Turnouts and Layouts.
Having found my info, Everything I could possibly want to know about LNWR track circa 1914 or is it?
Some of the drawings show equalised timbers whilst others suggest interlaced pointwork was used, am I confused?
Anyway plain track had 23 sleepers per 60ft length according to the drawing, point blades were straight cut. I cannot deduce whether the angles used were RAM or CLM.

Not sure on the timber spacing as it is difficult to read but I think the spacing is 2ft up to the heel and 2ft 4ins upto the stock rail joint and thereafter 2ft 6ins. I forgot to mention that the stockrail joint appears to come 4 timbers after the heel but that might not hold for all leads.
 
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Phil O

Member
Location
Plymouth.
It's possible that equalized timbering for "mainlines" and interleaved for the rest, or it maybe that the LNWR started with interleaved and then changed to equalized timbering, either way, mainlines would get the equalized timbering before lesser lines.
 
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La Cathedrale

Member
Thread starter
Location
Sussex, UK
Stephen, are are the timbers more narrowly spaced either side of the heel or stock rail joint? I see that in the 1909 drawing. I've picked up 'LNWR Liveries' which apparently has some track information in it, and have confirmed with the LNWRS that they do have the relevant information available online should I join up.

Thank you all!
 
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Location
Sandbach, Cheshire
Info
Builder of Finescale Signals in 2mm scale to 7mm scale, Trackwork, Turnouts and Layouts.
It's possible that equalized timbering for "mainlines" and interleaved for the rest, or it maybe that the LNWR started with interleaved and then changed to equalized timbering, either way, mainlines would get the equalized timbering before lesser lines.
Of course we won't be mentioning stone blocks will we? Previously discussed in relation to Winsford and the goods facility, When they relaid the mainline they didn't bother taking them away, just buried them, they were dug up when the station was "Modernised" and used to effect in the station garden, where you can still see them.
 
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Location
Sandbach, Cheshire
Info
Builder of Finescale Signals in 2mm scale to 7mm scale, Trackwork, Turnouts and Layouts.
Stephen, are are the timbers more narrowly spaced either side of the heel or stock rail joint? I see that in the 1909 drawing. I've picked up 'LNWR Liveries' which apparently has some track information in it, and have confirmed with the LNWRS that they do have the relevant information available online should I join up.

Thank you all!
I don't think I have any info on the timbers themselves, a lot of the drawings don't even include them, the drawings I saw, show the distance as 2ft 6ins but the plain track has the spacing at the joints as only 2ft.The book itself is from memory in A3 format and quite heavy.
 
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Location
Sandbach, Cheshire
Info
Builder of Finescale Signals in 2mm scale to 7mm scale, Trackwork, Turnouts and Layouts.
There is a current thread on Scalefour forum (surprised Martin hasn't mentioned it), Greetings from the deep Weald, which you may find useful if you haven't already seen it of course;).
 
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