New 'magic' control for model trains

[Derek]

I'm not sure if this is of interest to anyone, but I've not seen it mentioned here before.

I know nothing about it other than youtube has started showing me adverts for it. It's some sort of new way for controlling trains which, if I understand correctly, is finally a credible option for the 'two wires' that DCC promised to be.

https://www.railmagic.com/?ref=a2&g...s0M41RgZcL4GSQz2IIwCs78gFzTh3xqRoC8RwQAvD_BwE
Apologies if this has been mentioned before and I've missed it.
Derek

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Derek,

I know nothing about that, but it still uses the DCC principle of sending control commands via the rails, which is now old-hat.

The rolling wheel contact on the rail is about the worst connection you could imagine for a digital control system. Wheel pickup is fit only as a power supply, and then does only require 2 wires (and on-board batteries mean no wires at all).

In future all control functions will be by radio instead, allowing vastly more sophisticated control options than the now-ancient DCC system allows. I wouldn't be investing much money in anything DCC-related now -- the future will be something along these lines :

https://www.protocab.com

cheers,

Martin.

 

[AndyB]

Hi Derek,

I know nothing about that, but it still uses the DCC principle of sending control commands via the rails, which is now old-hat.

The rolling wheel contact on the rail is about the worst connection you could imagine for a digital control system. Wheel pickup is fit only as a power supply, and then does only require 2 wires (and on-board batteries mean no wires at all).

In future all control functions will be by radio instead, allowing vastly more sophisticated control options than the now-ancient DCC system allows. I wouldn't be investing much money in anything DCC-related now -- the future will be something along these lines :

https://www.protocab.com

cheers,

Martin.

Ah ha! But there is an alternative

Picking up power and a control signal from the track is (in the humble opinion of this electronics/electrical engineer) a rotten idea.

How about controlled clockwork instead? OK, well not exactly clockwork. It's more just a simple electronic flywheel. The flywheel keeps the train moving despite the horrible electrical connection between the train and the track.

 

[Martin Wynne]

It's more just a simple electronic flywheel. The flywheel keeps the train moving despite the horrible electrical connection between the train and the track.

Why not a real flywheel? It works on the prototype:

Voice of Clam - Own work, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2325199

Parry People Mover on the Stourbridge Town branch. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parry_People_Movers

Martin.

 

[AndyB]

Why not a real flywheel? It works on the prototype:

View attachment 1932
Voice of Clam - Own work, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2325199

Parry People Mover on the Stourbridge Town branch. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parry_People_Movers

Martin.

Well it would if the physics allowed it to scale. But we can cram a huge amount of energy (relative to scale) into a quarter Farad. That wouldn't work for toffee with that railbus

 

[Hayfield]

Well it would if the physics allowed it to scale. But we can cram a huge amount of energy (relative to scale) into a quarter Farad. That wouldn't work for toffee with that railbus

Flywheels are in use already, I have the odd loco with them and they do seem to work, but as you say to a limited extent, how about a rechargeable battery back up

 

[Lancastrian]

The Bulleid electric locomotives (Hornby's) were fitted with flywheels to allow them to bridge gaps in the third rail due to their increased length compared to the existing SR EMU stock.

Ian

 

[Martin Wynne]

Flywheels are in use already, I have the odd loco with them and they do seem to work, but as you say to a limited extent, how about a rechargeable battery back up

Yes, flywheels and capacitors are already in use to bridge interruptions in pickup.

We are talking about something different -- heavy high-speed flywheels to replace pickup entirely. Spun up to speed before the journey and then used as a source of energy for the journey. It's doable full-size, but it doesn't scale down to model sizes.

This topic was actually about something else entirely -- new forms of digital control to replace DCC.

Or more specifically, new means of occupancy-detection for computer-controlled DCC layouts.

My preferred way of controlling a model railway is to use a device like this:

linked from https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_03_2018/post-11380-0-85034000-1522319048.jpg

Martin.

 

[AndyB]

Flywheels are in use already, I have the odd loco with them and they do seem to work, but as you say to a limited extent, how about a rechargeable battery back up

Hi John,

A rechargeable battery works well with radio control.

Super capacitors work more like a flywheel except they charge up very quickly from the track and, depending on the gearing, they can keep a locomotive moving for a few feet after the power is cut.

Cheers,
Andy

 

[Rob Manchester]

Bernard Weller at Exactoscale was working on a radio control system back in 2004/5 but he died before the system was operational. I just found an article in MRJ168 where Don Rowland mentions Bernard's system ( called Red Arrow ) and comments that radio control would be the way forward. Maybe now is the time - I find current pickups one of the most frustrating aspects of loco building.

Rob

 

[Martin Wynne]

Bernard Weller at Exactoscale was working on a radio control system back in 2004/5 but he died before the system was operational. I just found an article in MRJ168 where Don Rowland mentions Bernard's system ( called Red Arrow ) and comments that radio control would be the way forward. Maybe now is the time - I find current pickups one of the most frustrating aspects of loco building.

Rob

@Guinea_Pig_Tester

Hi Rob,

Red Arrow used infra-red transmitters placed around the railway room.

Here's a fascinating video (first 15 minutes) from 2006 showing an 0 gauge model of Bodmin using the Red Arrow infra-red control system. The track is actually metal, but it didn't need to be, there is no wiring to it. It could have been 3D printed rail.

The railway is fully signalled and operated with a lever frame and block instruments.

Food for thought?

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Rob Manchester]

Thanks Martin,
Interesting video, will watch the rest of it later. I used to go to Shepshed back then so I probably saw some of this but my memory for all the shows I have been to over the last 40 years is getting rather sketchy.

I have some reservations about putting all the required electronics for radio control and sound in smaller locos. The two Ruston 48DS kits I have on the shelf here for example would be pushing it a bit I suspect - mind you it is very hard with that size loco to fit a sound decoder and speaker for DCC.

For industrial type layouts the 'surround' type sound systems have some promise. I think it was Roy Link who had this working a while back. Sand and Gravel rings a bell in my head, must look it up.

Rob

 

[Derek]

Hi Derek,

I know nothing about that, but it still uses the DCC principle of sending control commands via the rails, which is now old-hat.

The rolling wheel contact on the rail is about the worst connection you could imagine for a digital control system. Wheel pickup is fit only as a power supply, and then does only require 2 wires (and on-board batteries mean no wires at all).

In future all control functions will be by radio instead, allowing vastly more sophisticated control options than the now-ancient DCC system allows. I wouldn't be investing much money in anything DCC-related now -- the future will be something along these lines :

https://www.protocab.com

cheers,

Martin.

The above is evident on the prototype too- anyone remember the difficulties with the new lightweight DMUs, such as the Express Sprinters?

That protocab system looks good, yes. Only one modification I could think of- and I'm sure others have already- instead of using a plug in charger, keep the wheel electric pickups and run it onto a piece of track where it can charge through the wheels.

Derek