Plug track esoterics

[Phil G]

edit from Martin:

Please ignore this topic if you want to get started with Templot plug track.

I want to do some significant housekeeping on Templot Club to try to make it easier for beginners to get into 3D plug track -- without being misled, confused or distracted by all the dead ends, diversions, distractions and daft ideas which got us here. Templot has had a 2D/3D DXF export into CAD for over 20 years, and it is now more than 6 years since I started tinkering with it to add chairing detail, timbering bricks, laser-cutter aids, etc., and the optional CAD-free STL export for 3D printing. Which means I'm as guilty as anyone in posting stuff over the years which is now out-of-date and meaningless.

So I've created this topic as a general dumping ground for all the old posts (and new) which have muddied the water along the way. With all the assorted esoteric, abstruse and tangential discussions which are unlikely to get anyone any further forward. Such posts will be moved into this topic, and help in identifying them is welcome. This might become a fascinating read for some, but will be best ignored by anyone who wants to actually get on and do some model track building.

Bear in mind that as I move posts here, the forum software will sort them into date order, so it is likely to become an even more disjointed topic than the originals. Read at your peril, or preferably ignore.

You are welcome to post replies here, but only if you want sensible folks to ignore them.

Martin.

---

p.s. Every time the software changes the first post in this topic, I shall edit the above into it.

.
Signs of progress. These 8-sided chair bases are much closer to the REA cast-pattern crossing chairs than the existing rectangular approximations:


View attachment 12570

View attachment 12569


Still lots to do -- on the rail seats for example. Also currently working on rail 3 only -- for the K-crossings they are needed on rails 1 and 4.

But getting there slowly.

Martin.

Hi Martin,
looking very good indeed,
Just a question, and please don't think I am pushing I am simply very curious about the programming side. Will the introduction of the 8 side functionality also help wit the Slab and Bracket A chair, which looks to be a 6 sided chair
cheers
Phil

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Phil,
I think you will find that the side you have labelled 1 is actually 3 sides that just happen to be in a straight line!

Steve

 

[Phil G]

Hi Phil,
I think you will find that the side you have labelled 1 is actually 3 sides that just happen to be in a straight line!

Steve

Thanks Steve,
Like I said, it was more about understanding how the programming worked. I can see what you saying, and that makes a lot of sense.
cheers
Phil

 

[Martin Wynne]

I think you will find that the side you have labelled 1 is actually 3 sides that just happen to be in a straight line!

@Phil G

That's correct. And the existing 4-sided chairs now have 3 sides in a straight line on both sides.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,
The next logical step will be 6-sided slab & bracket AA chairs. It's not yet decided how to do the loose jaws for them. They may need to be glued on like the COT chairs, rather than clip down (which is tricky). They are needed for the K-crossing chairs too, so need to be sorted out first. Also the half-bolted chairs.

Even as you sent this message I was just thinking and creating these screen shots
thinking how on earth do we build these when the times comes? then a crazy though came into my head.
still not sure it will work or if it would be too fiddly.

Given 1.125" equate to very close to a 0.3 mm brass rod in 4 mm scale would it be possible to crate a two part FDM drilling jig? similar to the vee jigs in how they hold the rail in place. This jig then held both the chair and all the rails in the right place?. You tipped the jig vertical as the picture below, and using ideally a drill press you drilled out the 0.3 mm hole right though all the rails?
I know there are issues not least being a long series 0.3 mm drill and the FDM jig would ideally need a steel guide bush to stop the drill wandering into the plastic, but crazy as its sounds I think I will have a go at drawing something up.
if it works, it should also work for a slab and bracket A chair. The next issue would be, how practical could you slid a brass bar in such a confined space? I don't know It would be fiddly for sure. but there again when you conceived of the idea of loose jaw, it all sounded a bit to much to start with.
cheers
Phil

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Martin,
what is the correct topic?

Hi Phil,

This T5 topic (post moved here):

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...nd-plug-track-progress-discussions.982/latest

(All development of Templot2 has halted.)

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

how on earth do we build these when the times comes?

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

You do love to jump ahead.

Barely have we mentioned K-crossings and you are thinking about slips. I'm fairly confident about creating the chairs, the tricky part will be getting the rails into them without having breaks in the rail. Clearly it will need to be all loose jaws so that the rails can be dropped in rather than slid in.

For such complex chairing, I have in mind a modular system where various angled jaws can be built up in Templot on a chair base to create a custom chair design. But I dare not mention it, in case you start asking me questions about it before I know the answers myself. It also needs a name -- after timber shoving and chair heaving, do we now add some chair casting functions?

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

I know there are issues not least being a long series 0.3 mm drill

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

Long drills down to 0.5mm dia. are available from Squires:

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=105764#p105764

But I don't think they would last long making an interrupted cut through several rails.

The idea of plug track is that folks can build complex chaired track without needing special equipment such as a drill press -- apart from the 3D printers of course.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,

You do love to jump ahead.

not jumping ahead just thinking out loud,

But I don't think they would last long making an interrupted cut through several rails.

I agree with that, hence the need for a steel bush and agree it still may not work, and will always be very hard on the drill bit.

The idea of plug track is that folks can build complex chaired track without needing special equipment such as a drill press

A drill press would not strictly be needed its just a nice to have, but a small drill such a Dremel or Minicraft would be needed.

I have half drawn up a jig idea so I will carry on and see if its doable or not. Note this is only for the slab and bracket version.
which looking at the drawing no 45, (1in10 scissors crossover) chairs SC10CL, SC10BL, SC10AL, SC10AR, SC10BR and SC10CR are all shown as slab and bracket type chairs
cheers
Phil

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,
Just a quick clarification question re fling jigs
Just looking at the attched which to be honest is the first time I have studied this page its showing there is a set on the point rail in this case a (Vee 10) of 1' 8 1/32) so just a shade over 6 mm in 4 mm scale. Presumable on the prototype that ensures the web is directly in the line with the blunt nose the vee. For vee filing jigs we don't bother with the set do we? we just file the opposite side for both the point and the splice rail. correct?

cheers
Phil

 

[Martin Wynne]

For vee filing jigs we don't bother with the set do we? we just file the opposite side for both the point and the splice rail. correct?

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

Yes. Just a simple single filed angle across the rail is all that is needed.

Ordinarily this would create an unsupported vee nose because of the rail web being narrower than the head.

However most model rail sections have a web which is significantly overscale in thickness. Which means in practice that when the vee nose is blunted back to the required blunt nose width, there is just enough of the web remaining to support the nose. We do not have to support heavy traffic loads in our models, so this is sufficient:

If you prefer to produce a more prototypical fully supported nose, this is achieved in the filing jigs by filing once, putting a set in the rail and turning it over, and filing again. But if you do this it won't fit in the plug track chairs. However the Templot code for the chairs is now open source, so you could modify them in some way for your own use to accommodate such a changed design. They would be less convenient to assemble and would probably need to have the nose glued in place. Whereas the single filed face design works extremely well -- the point rail simply slides into the A chair and stops in the right place, held in place by the jaw grip, see diagram above. Provided that is that you have the point rail (vee nose) in the main road of the crossing.

I'm going to move this discussion out of this topic because it is just sowing seeds of confusion into a basic explanation of the filing jigs for beginners.

When I have a bit more time I will extend this topic with a demo video showing a rail being easily filed in the jig and slid into the chairs.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,
Just for the devilment I just did a C10 vee with the set and double file option. I set the bend first which then meant I had to file the top rail only then turned it over and filed the other side of the top rail, which then leaves you with the top rail and web looking down the center line of the point as per attached PDF. To be honest it looks very good, but as you rightly pointed because the bottom of the rail is still there it will not fit into a V10 A Templot chair. Its also a lot more effort. I may have a think about making a Slab and Bracket chair to suit, but not in any hurry. As always your method is much simpler and well, just works.
I will not post any photos given you going to move but I though I would share the filing jig works both ways.
cheers
Phil,

 

[Hayfield]

The other thing is with the double filing method especially with 4mm scale, can you see the difference !!!

The benefit of the one side filing, is that it fits nice and snugly in place, and in gauge. Functionality is equally as important as looks, the added benefit with its ease of production is also a massive benefit.

Martin a great set of instructions

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

Thanks for adding the link into my COT track building thread, you beat me to it

Thanks

John

 

[Tim2014]

This being the first vee I've made, I thought the jig was wrong, with the vee exactly twice the angle I needed:

Edit: Thanks to Terry for the clarification below on how the rails are supposed to fit together.

 

[Tim2014]

Tim, it's difficult to see from the photo but, I think You just need to slide one rail down the other to form the Vee so that the main running rail has the tip and the turnout rail slide up to it. e.g. the tip of the main-road veered rail forms the actual bee angle!

Yep! That works perfectly! Thanks so much, I'll edit the post above and find a dark corner to lie down in...

 

[Phil G]

The other thing is with the double filing method especially with 4mm scale, can you see the difference !!!

The benefit of the one side filing, is that it fits nice and snugly in place, and in gauge. Functionality is equally as important as looks, the added benefit with its ease of production is also a massive benefit.

Martin a great set of instructions

Hi John,
Your first question is a good one, the answer is, when used with a cast type of A chair no not really and not worth the effort.

However if you look at a top or front view of the slab and bracket then the bolt right in front of the web is very evident, see photo attched, in order to that justice you also need the bottom foot of the rail to be there. The only way you achieve that is to do it prototypical, that is the only reason I had a go at putting the set in.

Just to reiterate you don't do anything differently with the filing jig it is exactly the same. The only variation is more care is needed as your only filing effectively half of the rail ( the top section) on the point rail only, the slice rail is done as normal the fit is exactly the same as long as you use the jig.
To be honest is clearly horses for courses, it does take a bit longer to file the point rail this way, its not a must do scenario at all, that said if you can see it in 4mm and you can, then in 7mm it would be even more prominent

cheers
Phil

 

[Phil G]

Yep! That works perfectly! Thanks so much, I'll edit the post above and find a dark corner to lie down in...

Hi Tim,
If you get a spare 20 mins or so the attched video is well worth watching. its been linked a few times on the forum Its actually a documentary type of day to day checking and repair of British bulkhead track. However because Templot so faithfully follows (where practical with in modelling reason) the real prototype. Watching how its done with the real thing is a great introduction to what Templot is actually doing. All the principle are very closely followed.

cheers
Phil,

 

[Hayfield]

Hi John,
Your first question is a good one, the answer is, when used with a cast type of A chair no not really and not worth the effort.

However if you look at a top or front view of the slab and bracket then the bolt right in front of the web is very evident, see photo attched, in order to that justice you also need the bottom foot of the rail to be there. The only way you achieve that is to do it prototypical, that is the only reason I had a go at putting the set in.

Just to reiterate you don't do anything differently with the filing jig it is exactly the same. The only variation is more care is needed as your only filing effectively half of the rail ( the top section) on the point rail only, the slice rail is done as normal the fit is exactly the same as long as you use the jig.
To be honest is clearly horses for courses, it does take a bit longer to file the point rail this way, its not a must do scenario at all, that said if you can see it in 4mm and you can, then in 7mm it would be even more prominent
View attachment 13113
cheers
Phil

Phil

Martin has clearly said that the socket to hold the rail is designed for 1 sided filed rail.

Secondly for years I have said I do not believe (certainly on larger layouts) for 4mm scale the results of the two sided filing system cannot be seen at normal viewing distances

Now I am a modeler not an engineer, I don't believe in modelling things that cannot be seen. But feel free if you wish to differ

For your own layout please do whatever you want. BUT please do not muddy the water for the uninitiated. Martin for good reasons has designed the system to work in a certain way for a very good reason. We all should support his efforts.

We have just seen someone on here go off half cocked and not used the system as designed, resulting in a disappointing result !!

Please lets all sing from the same hymn sheet. I have used the system as designed in 7mm scale (not 4mm) and the results are excellent and pass close scrutiny

John

 

[Martin Wynne]

All great stuff but has anyone printed a complete turnout yet? Wasn't the idea for people to be able to be able to print track and turnouts without having to learn how to use CAD programs? I know the original concept was to make it easy for anyone to print their own track and turnouts and I don't mean to be unkind but this seems to have turned into an exercise in re-inventing a lot of wheels that have already been invented.

BTW, 2D Templot is absolutely brilliant

@AndyB

Hi Andy,

Good to hear from you.

No, that wasn't the original concept. Since I made Templot free 13 years ago the concept is simple:

I have a hobby tinkering with software for track design, and trying 3D printed track. I'm happy to share it with anyone else who is interested.

The problem has been that folks expect me not only to share it but also to explain it -- which is not part of the deal and is driving me nuts.

The 3D stuff is still up in the air as an experiment, with the underlying assumption that anyone trying it will already have a lot of experience with Templot, know about UK prototype bullhead track, and be an established track builder with knowledge of available supplies, materials and methods. Instead we have folks jumping straight in with none of that know-how and somehow expecting Templot or me to provide it.

And folks will keep jumping ahead of me and doing things which I'm not yet ready to do myself. That's fine if they do it themselves, but expecting me to help is not really fair. I feel that I'm being pushed forward faster than I want to go. For example left to myself I would forget about K-crossings and diamonds for a few years and concentrate on finishing all the loose ends still remaining for plain track and turnouts. And spend a lot more time tinkering with the machines and finding practical ways to do things -- for example I'm convinced that if I could find a bit more time to tinker with the desktop CNC miller it would prove to be a better option for a home workshop than laser-cutting.

But the Templot code is now open-source and easily accessible in a free compiler, so for anyone not happy with current progress and wanting to take Templot forward or in a different direction, the answer is simple -- get involved and do it.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

At the end of the day, Templot is a tool, which many people use in all sorts of ways to enrich their hobby, some use it with CAD some without.

Hi All,
I agree with James here 100%,
Templot is a tool, as are, traditional paper printers, FDM printers, resin printers, lasers, CNC machines or even other Cad software packages,

Templot is a fantastic program it has the ability to output information, which can then be used by other software packages, often called CAM programs, (Slicers such as Cura or Chitubox are CAM programs), These in turn output program information (most often a form of G-code) that the other tools can interact with to function.

This is how Templot has always worked, you input information in to the Templot program by using either the keyboard or the mouse. You control what Templot is doing by your actions, I.e. commands and the sequence you input the commands into the program.

Templot firstly visualizes your inputs on the computer screen, and then when your happy, it outputs the information in a way that can be used. In the early days it was simply by outputting a language that could interact with a printer, You outputted templates via the printer, which you then used to aid your track building. Hence its name.

Interesting by definition Templot is actually a Computer Aided Design program, It is not the same, as say the commercially available CAD packages, we think of when the word "CAD" is used however.
When Martin talks about "no cad needed" he simply means you don't need to understand how to drive a cad package to learn how to control Templot. In fact Templot does not often follow, shall we say the more conventional though processes of workflow for Cad packages.
So its irrelevant weather you understand conventional Cad or not. What you do need to understand, or learn is how to drive Templot.

Like all things there are different levels of understanding, How far you take it, really depends on how much effort you put into using it.
Suffice to say Templot is a very powerful tool ,as you learn, your understand more of what it can really do. (nobody understands it better than Martin, which is as it should being he is the creator.) Its also one of the reason for the requests for help.

I personally and I stress this is my personal workflow is to use a cad package to post process Templot generated information, I do this by outputting Templot information in DXF format.

It is however in its most basic form nothing more than a electronic way of storing and manipulated Templot generated information.
You could think of it as a means of filing all the old printed templates if you like. Or arranging all those pieces of paper on a layout board.
There are a few very good reasons for using a cad system, ,such as its infinite zoom ability, or in 3D cad the ability to have height information full enclosed and at your disposal.
(There are many more plus to this workflow for me, but that is only because of the way choose to store and manipulate all the information once I have it in a Cad package.) I stress again, the use of a cad system has nothing to do with how I use Templot, they are simply two tools I use interactively with my modelling.

For me it would be good if we all stopped stating our personal preference, as though its the only way to do things. There are many ways to approach are hobby and we all should be acknowledging it as just that.

cheers
Phil,

 

[Martin Wynne]

.
Please ignore this topic if you want to get started with Templot plug track.

I want to do some significant housekeeping on Templot Club to try to make it easier for beginners to get into 3D plug track -- without being misled, confused or distracted by all the dead ends, diversions, distractions and daft ideas which got us here. Templot has had a 2D/3D DXF export into CAD for over 20 years, and it is now more than 6 years since I started tinkering with it to add chairing detail, timbering bricks, laser-cutter aids, etc., and the optional CAD-free STL export for 3D printing. Which means I'm as guilty as anyone in posting stuff over the years which is now out-of-date and meaningless.

So I've created this topic as a general dumping ground for all the old posts (and new) which have muddied the water along the way. With all the assorted esoteric, abstruse and tangential discussions which are unlikely to get anyone any further forward. Such posts will be moved into this topic, and help in identifying them is welcome. This might become a fascinating read for some, but will be best ignored by anyone who wants to actually get on and do some model track building.

Bear in mind that as I move posts here, the forum software will sort them into date order, so it is likely to become an even more disjointed topic than the originals. Read at your peril, or preferably ignore.

You are welcome to post replies here, but only if you want sensible folks to ignore them.

Martin.