Rail for 3D track?

[maverick]

Hi
I am quite new to Templot but am really impressed by what has been achieved. Im a software developer for many years.
I firstly printed a piece of straight OO and had problems with track fitting the chairs and after much reading I think my track is flat bottom and the chairs are bullhead so that's ok ill get some bullhead.
I next moved to O and selected O-SH.
Here is a screen shot of my settings along with some photos under the microscope of the mismatch.
Can any one suggest what the issue is here please. The rail was taken from built track which is labelled PICO STREAM LINE on the bottom of the sleepers.

I printed the timbering on a BambuLabs A1 and the resin chairs and loose key on a Uniformation GK2 with ESUN ABS Like Grey resin. Cleaned with ultrasonic cleaner and cured for 5 mins. Resin settings are calibrated with cones of calibration and measure correctly.

Many Thanks,
Tony

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Tony,
Welcome to the Templot Club forum.

Uniformation GK2

What slicer does this use?
Can you perform a screen print of any slicer settings that are available and post them on here?
By the way without the rail in place does the loose jaw fit into the slot ok?
It does look as though the rail does not fit into the fixed jaw properly.

Well done for getting this far.
Steve

 

[maverick]

Hi Steve,
Thanks for your reply.
So the slicer for resin is Lychee. I have attached 2 screen shots. The loose jaw fits perfectly into the chair with no play. doesn't fall out but can be pulled back out.

I saw another post posted in DEC about a code 125 chair not being defined correctly could this be the same issue for code 124?

Can you confirm that the profile of the rail I used does indeed look like a code 125 BH from Peco ?

Thanks,
Tony

 

[maverick]

Steve,
Also yes I would agree , It does look as though the rail does not fit into the fixed jaw properly.
It does look like the rail fits the loose jaw a lot better.
I was tempted to print fixed chairs to see if the rail then fits but I've got a hunch it will be the same shapes just fixed in place,.
Tony

 

[Martin Wynne]

@maverick

Hi Tony,

Welcome to Templot Club.

Looking at your photos it seems that the rail and chairs are not to the same scale. Using 0-SF (7mm/ft) and Peco Code 124 rail, I get this:

You can see that the key (in green) fully fills the web area on the rail. That's clearly not the case in your first photo.

Are you sure that the rail is Peco code 124? It should measure 0.124 inches high or 3.15 mm.

Or maybe you changed to 0-SF after storing the templates? Or maybe you changed the resin shrinkage settings very significantly?

If you post your Templot BOX file here we can better see what might be happening.

p.s. I think you may be the first to try using the Peco code 124 rail. It is a strange hybrid between bullhead and flat-bottom, with the foot wider than the head. I think that explains why the key isn't fitting too well in the above diagram, I need to look at that.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Tony,
I have no experience of code 124 from peco, so cant comment on that aspect.
Aprt from saying Peco Streamline was there any sort of code on the bottom of the flexi track?
This is all experimental at the moment, so you might be the first person to actually try a peco 124 profile rail.
Steve

 

[maverick]

Hi Martin,
Thanks for your reply.
Im not sure if the rail is Peco code 124 but it does measure 0.2 inches high.
Ive not changed the settings after storing the templates.
.box file attached.
Thanks,
Tony

 

[Martin Wynne]

Im not sure if the rail is Peco code 124 but it does measure 0.2 inches high.

@maverick

Hi Tony,

That is Peco Code 200 rail. It is too big for 0 gauge. It is used for garden railways.

Sorry to say it won't fit chairs made for 0-SF.

You need to get some 0 gauge rail. Or alternatively build your track to a larger scale than 0 gauge. I will see what might be done with that code 200 rail. Do you have a lot of it, or some models which run on it?

cheers,

Martin.

 

[maverick]

Hi Martin,
It's ok I don't have a lot of it. So this is the story. I found Templot, was really fascinated by it and wanted to print some test projects.,
I did a OO straight timbering but I had Code 100 flat bottom rail and couldn't find rail options on Templot to fit. So I asked a friend who has a "garden railway" for some O gauge and he gave me a section about 10" long to play with. Alas I didn't realise there were so many types of O gauge.

I would ldeally like to keep going with OO track as I'm keen to print some turnouts and curves and I get more for the money on my 3dprinter bed.

I have a OO layout but alas I didn't build it and some spare track but as mentioned it measures .1 inch and the bottom is wider than the top (head?)

Can I print loose chairs for OO code 100 flat bottom or do I need to buy some rail that will work with Templot ?

also can I ask , what would be the right gauge to connect to Hornby / peco / off the shelf OO track.
Sorry im sure this is grating with everyone as your all scale modellers but im a newby to scale modelling and want to just print some track which I can learn in doing so and fits with my existing bought track so I can test it.

Thanks for your great help I really appreciate it
Tony

 

[Martin Wynne]

@maverick

Hi Tony,

That code 200 rail is used for the Peco SM-32 range:

Although it is the same track gauge as 0 gauge (32mm between the rails) it uses the much larger scale of 16mm/ft to represent 2ft gauge narrow-gauge railways.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[maverick]

That explains a lot , thanks.

I would ldeally like to keep going with OO track as I'm keen to print some turnouts and curves and I get more for the money on my 3dprinter bed.

I have a OO layout but alas I didn't build it and some spare track but as mentioned it measures .1 inch and the bottom is wider than the top (head?) so im guessing code 100 flat bottom.

Can I print loose chairs for OO code 100 flat bottom or do I need to buy some rail that will work with Templot ?

also can I ask , what would be the right gauge to connect to Hornby / peco / off the shelf OO track.
Sorry im sure this is grating with everyone as your all scale modellers but im a newby to scale modelling and want to just print some track which I can learn in doing so and fits with my existing bought track so I can test it.

Thanks for your great help I really appreciate it
Tony

 

[Martin Wynne]

also can I ask , what would be the right gauge to connect to Hornby / peco / off the shelf OO track.
Sorry im sure this is grating with everyone as your all scale modellers but im a newby to scale modelling and want to just print some track which I can learn in doing so and fits with my existing bought track so I can test it.

@maverick @Hayfield

Hi Tony,

Everyone was a newby once. It's great that you want to try 3D printing some track.

If you have off-the-shelf 00 track it is very likely to have flat-bottom rail. In order to build your own track for 00 using Templot you need to get some code 75 bullhead rail. Templot can't do 3D track for flat-bottom rail (yet).

Code 75 bullhead rail is available from various suppliers, such as C&L, but their mail order is very slow and quirky -- it's best to visit their stand at an exhibition. Marcway/SMP in Sheffield also have code 75 bullhead rail, although slightly narrower than C&L. John (Hayfield) will know the best place to get some code 75 rail to play with. John?

In Templot I suggest you choose 00-BF. This will give you the maximum compatibility with your existing 00 models.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[maverick]

Great.
Looks like rails of sheffield have LTK-SR10 stainless steel 4mm bullhead (they say equivalent to code 75 hmmmm)
and also some code 124 bullhead

My last question before I get dug in is when it comes to building points with 3d printed timbering and chairs . Most of the rail is the same as straights but with a curve but I guess you need also blades and frogs ? Are these made from straight rail or are they special and need buying ?
Can you share any advise for getting the rail together for points , does the same blade and frogs suit all points regardless of radius and length ?
Thanks again.
Tony

 

[Martin Wynne]

rails of sheffield have LTK-SR10 stainless steel 4mm bullhead ... Can you share any advise

@maverick

Hi Tony,

First things first -- don't use stainless steel rail. You need nickel-silver rail.

More reply to follow:

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Tony,

If you are anywhere near Wigan this Saturday, 7th December, C&L will be having a trade stand there. It's an 0 gauge show, but they say on their web site that they will have a full range of 4mm (00) products, including presumably their code 75 nickel silver rail. Getting it at a show can save a lot of postage on full yard/metre lengths of rail:

https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/onlin...5-HiNi-Nickle-Silver-pack-4-X-0-5M-p127998976

Marcway in Sheffield also have some code 75 nickel-silver bullhead:

http://www.marcway.net/item/2425/Code-75-Nickel-Silver-Bullhead-Rail

Most track builders tend to be members of one of the societies, and can save a lot on the cost of rail by obtaining it via their society, such as the EM Gauge Society. You can soon recover the cost of the subscription.

p.s. don't get stainless steel rail.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

My last question before I get dug in is when it comes to building points with 3d printed timbering and chairs . Most of the rail is the same as straights but with a curve but I guess you need also blades and frogs ? Are these made from straight rail or are they special and need buying ?
Can you share any advise for getting the rail together for points , does the same blade and frogs suit all points regardless of radius and length ?

@maverick @Hayfield

Hi Tony,

Where to begin?

You use the same rail for everything. It is typically obtained in yard or metre straight lengths, or half-metre lengths to save postage.

It has to be cut, curved, bent and filed as necessary to make pointwork. However, that's much easier than it sounds, once you have a few basic tools.

Points are called turnouts in Templot speak (and by track engineers on the real railway).

Turnouts are comprised of 2 main units:

a switch -- the area containing the moving blades. Templot has a list of different switch sizes to use.

a V-crossing -- the part where the rails cross over (also sometimes called a frog). In Templot you specify the angle at which the rails cross. This determines the radius of the turnout.

And some rails of the right length linking between the switch and the V-crossing.

Turnouts of differing radii and angles require matching rail parts, you can't use one size to fit all. Traditionally you print a paper template (using Templot) as a guide to making the required bends and angles for each turnout.

Do you have an FDM (filament) printer? If so Templot can create the STL files for some very effective filing jigs which make the preparation and assembly of pointwork very straightforward, see this topic:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/how-to-using-the-templot-rail-filing-jigs.1049/

Ask again as you get into it. You are already one step ahead of many track builders in making your own chairs.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[maverick]

Hi Tony,

If you are anywhere near Wigan this Saturday, 7th December, C&L will be having a trade stand there. It's an 0 gauge show, but they say on their web site that they will have a full range of 4mm (00) products, including presumably their code 75 nickel silver rail. Getting it at a show can save a lot of postage on full yard/metre lengths of rail:

https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/onlin...5-HiNi-Nickle-Silver-pack-4-X-0-5M-p127998976

Marcway in Sheffield also have some code 75 nickel-silver bullhead:

http://www.marcway.net/item/2425/Code-75-Nickel-Silver-Bullhead-Rail

Most track builders tend to be members of one of the societies, and can save a lot on the cost of rail by obtaining it via their society, such as the EM Gauge Society. You can soon recover the cost of the subscription.

p.s. don't get stainless steel rail.

cheers,

Martin.

Unfortunately I am in the home of GWR (sunny Swindon). So that's quite a trek. They do mail order it seems although payment by bank transfer is a bit clunky in this day and age. I'll give them a call tomorrow. Thanks again.

 

[Stephen Freeman]

As mentioned, there are various suppliers of rail. Precision Paints sell HiNi rail in codes 125 and 75 Bullhead, you might find ordering from them or Karlgarin Models, (they sell a wider range of rail profiles) an easier prospect.

 

[Hayfield]

Unfortunately I am in the home of GWR (sunny Swindon). So that's quite a trek. They do mail order it seems although payment by bank transfer is a bit clunky in this day and age. I'll give them a call tomorrow. Thanks again.

Tony

The easiest thing to do for rail via the post is to buy it in 500mm lengths, simply due to the cost and ease in posting it.

My own personal stocks are getting low'ish, if its just the odd bit I am happy to assist but if someone wants to do a bit of experimenting then buy a pack of rail (I do have a quite a bit of old tarnished rail, its fine for soldering but the quality of drawing is poor and not suitable for finescale resin chairs)

Contrary to lot's of rumor's Phil at C&L sends lots of items via mail order each week, he has his own style and is not helped by the actions of some of his customers, also he states he has issues reading emails

Steps to successfully buy from C&L

1 Go to website https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/online-store/4mm-c32279003
2 Select rail products https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/online-store/Rail-Products-c32279029
3 Find rail in 500mm lengths https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/onlin...-HiNi-Nickle-Silver-pack-20-X-0-5M-p127998975
4 Add to bag
5 Go to check out
6 Pay

7 At a reasonable time of day phone C&L 01372 458604, This is very important if you are buying multiple items, as the order will be held up until all things are in stock

Phil is like a lot of small suppliers in not being very IT savey and he is not Amazon giving a 24 hour service.

Simply follow this system, make a quick phone call, be polite and not demanding and the item(s) will follow reasonably quickly if in stock

Usually when I chase items for people, 75% of the time it has been the customers fault in not supplying details like addresses etc. Or even making a call to see if there is an issue

Like all retailers orders missing details will be put to one side to be dealt with when time allows, I would suggest give the order a few hours, then phone between 11am and 3pm, Mondays and Fridays can be difficult when Phil is attending exhibitions

Remember these small businesses are one man bands, owners do everything and in order of their priority. EG VAT returns need doing on time!! Exhibitions take time to set up

John

 

[Phil O]

Hi Tony,

Of all the materials that I have ever worked with any grade of stainless steel is a real pain and note that some grades of stainless, will rust!!

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Stainless Steel is not as easy to work with as Nickel Silver of any grade, however, personally for my own use I am prepared to put up with it because no Nickel Silver or standard steel rail has such a realistic surface appearance, plus it doesn't need as much cleaning and in the case of that available for rail does not in my experience rust. In fact it is not much if any harder to use than normal steel rail.

 

[Martin Wynne]

.
Stainless steel is more difficult to shape, form and file.

But the real problem is soldering. Every piece of rail needs a dropper wire connection. Stainless steel needs an active flux for soldering which is not suitable for electrical work and needs to be cleaned off afterwards. It also needs much higher soldering temperatures likely to damage plastic and 3D-printed timbering bases and chairs.

In the real world, electrical connections to stainless steel are made using nuts and bolts.

It is best avoided for model railway track. There is only one supplier -- the same one who supplies 6-bolt fishplates and brass M1 bridge chairs for general track-building:

https://www.modelrailforum.com/threads/new-layout.53375/post-676638

I'm lost for words in how to reply to that.

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

.
Stainless steel is more difficult to shape, form and file.

But the real problem is soldering. Every piece of rail needs a dropper wire connection. Stainless steel needs an active flux for soldering which is not suitable for electrical work and needs to be cleaned off afterwards. It also needs much higher soldering temperatures likely to damage plastic and 3D-printed timbering bases and chairs.

In the real world, electrical connections to stainless steel are made using nuts and bolts.

It is best avoided for model railway track. There is only one supplier -- the same one who supplies 6-bolt fishplates and brass M1 bridge chairs for general track-building:

https://www.modelrailforum.com/threads/new-layout.53375/post-676638

I'm lost for words in how to reply to that.

Martin.

I wonder what he would do with a 3D printer?

However with COT track all of this can be avaided

John

 

[Rob Manchester]

.
It is best avoided for model railway track. There is only one supplier -- the same one who supplies 6-bolt fishplates and brass M1 bridge chairs for general track-building:

https://www.modelrailforum.com/threads/new-layout.53375/post-676638

I'm lost for words in how to reply to that.

Martin.

That thread made me smile a lot !!!

Rob

 

[maverick]

Thanks to all for your lovely words of advice. I think i can extract that i don't want to use Stainless track for all the reasons that make perfect sense to me and i will avoid my code 200 track now i have learned what it is - Thanks Martin.
I have ordered some code 75 4mm and some code 125 7mm and im really looking forward to continuing on my Templot journey.

Could i ask where you access the stl files for making jigs within Templot, the post link given was to an article on how to use them but i couldn't see where to find them

I wish you all a pleasant weekend and stay safe.........

Tony
PS Phil at C&L was very a very honest guy, not something found in a lot of supplier i will definitely use them in the future.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Could i ask where you access the stl files for making jigs within Templot, the post link given was to an article on how to use them but i couldn't see where to find them

@maverick

Hi Tony,

To export the filing jigs, click show settings and then this option. Then the green export buttons as before. A further dialog will appear.

Note that the groove dimension settings are still 100% experimental and not linked to your track settings. You will need to do some trial and error with your actual rail, printer and slicer. The intent is that the rail should be precisely located at the required angle, and firmly gripped when the jig is clamped together tight. The groove depth needs to be a fraction less that half the rail height.

The default figures are simply those which work for me with code 75 rail on my printer. It's very likely that they will need adjusting for other printers. For trial prints it is convenient to reduce the jig thickness to say 3mm to save time and filament until you have found the optimum groove dimensions.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Thanks to all for your lovely words of advice. I think i can extract that i don't want to use Stainless track for all the reasons that make perfect sense to me and i will avoid my code 200 track now i have learned what it is - Thanks Martin.
I have ordered some code 75 4mm and some code 125 7mm and im really looking forward to continuing on my Templot journey.

Could i ask where you access the stl files for making jigs within Templot, the post link given was to an article on how to use them but i couldn't see where to find them

I wish you all a pleasant weekend and stay safe.........

Tony
PS Phil at C&L was very a very honest guy, not something found in a lot of supplier i will definitely use them in the future.

Tony

The model railway world does rely on small one man enterprises, which can only exist with a dedicated sole trader keeping the company afloat. In C&L's case Phil has invested large sums of money in breathing new life into the companies products, many of the mainstream lines have benefited in new tooling. In fact had Phil not stepped in at the last moment, C&L would not have existed

But the range of cottage industries are run by some very interesting folk for many and varied reasons. I get on with Phil and have come to accept the way he runs his business, likewise I have been very grateful to the owners of Springside (Bernard?), William at ACE products and Dave at Roxey Mouldings, most seemingly past normal retirement age enjoying running businesses for the benefit of others

Good luck with you journey with Templot track building, if I can help with your 7mm (FDM) experiments please ask

John

 

[maverick]

Hi all,
Just an update . On Thursday I ordered from precision paints lengths of track of both code 75 and code 125 . However the couriers seemed to have left the parcel quite a way from the house and then hid a note in my letter box which I have just found
. They also claimed I had singed for it when I tracked the order which is a bit naughty . I informed the company last night and emailed again today but alas no response . Fingers crossed they will replace the order in the next few days

In the meantime I have been working with templot , it really is quite nice.

Updates soon ……
Tony

 

[Stephen Freeman]

you might have less issue ordering direct from Karlgarin, as he will supply slightly shorter lengths which can come via Royal Mail, if you explain the problems I would think he'd oblige. Unfortunately it isn't really any cheaper overall.

 

[Hayfield]

Or use C&L (which in 0 gauge is slightly cheaper) and has been a mail order retailer of both rail and track building products for years, 50cm lengths go normal Royal Mail small parcels.

I have found Royal Mail far more reliable than other services

 

[Stephen Freeman]

you might have less issue ordering direct from Karlgarin, as he will supply slightly shorter lengths which can come via Royal Mail, if you explain the problems I would think he'd oblige. Unfortunately it isn't really any cheaper overall.

I have just done the sums and it is cheaper after all, as to whether either is cheaper (karlgarin state £29.50 for 10 762mm lengths =£38.05 for 10 metres) or more expensive than others depends largely on carriage costs, £8.00 for the shorter lengths or £10.00 for the metre lengths, other suppliers don't, as far as know, say up front. Apparently there may be other issues with code 131 rail. Either there isn't much difference and it is a matter of personl choice.

 

[Hayfield]

I have just done the sums and it is cheaper after all, as to whether either is cheaper (karlgarin state £29.50 for 10 762mm lengths =£38.05 for 10 metres) or more expensive than others depends largely on carriage costs, £8.00 for the shorter lengths or £10.00 for the metre lengths, other suppliers don't, as far as know, say up front. Apparently there may be other issues with code 131 rail. Either there isn't much difference and it is a matter of personl choice.

Stephen

I was quoting the price from Phoenix which may or may not be the same. Sorry for ant confusion

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Apparently there may be other issues with code 131 rail

What would they be?
Steve

 

[maverick]

Thanks for the info .
Looks like I’ll have to order some more rail as not heard from precision paints . Are there slight differences in rail (code 75 and 125) profiles between different suppliers (precision , c&l , etc) ?

Is there once which is more Templot friendly ?

also I have printed and comparing code 75 bh solid chair (left) and loose chair with jaw added (right)

There looks like small differences is this expected ?

Thanks
Tony

 

[Martin Wynne]

Thanks for the info .
Looks like I’ll have to order some more rail as not heard from precision paints . Are there slight differences in rail (code 75 and 125) profiles between different suppliers (precision , c&l , etc) ?

Is there once which is more Templot friendly ?

also I have printed and comparing code 75 bh solid chair (left) and loose chair with jaw added (right)

There looks like small differences is this expected ?

Thanks
Tony

View attachment 13148

@maverick

Hi Tony,

The proprietor of Precision Paints suffered a hand injury and was/is unable to process orders. See:

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/news/service-update-19012024

There are generally 6 different code 75 bullhead sections available in the UK:

1. EMGS / S4SOC / C+L / Finetrax nickel-silver

2. EMGS / S4SOC / C+L mild steel

3. SMP/Marcway nickel-silver

4. SMP/Marcway phosphor-bronze

5. Peco nickel-silver (as far as I know not available separately from their flexi-track)

6. DCC Concepts stainless steel

Sorry I don't know which of those is stocked by Karlgarin/Precision Paints, but it is probably #1. above.

Most 4mm track-builders join either EMGS or S4 SOC and obtain their rail through them.

C+L is the most well-established of the other suppliers, but his mail order can be painfully slow (a one-man band who is attending an exhibition with his trade stand almost every weekend).

DCC Concepts is a very slick mail-order operation, but stainless steel is the most unsuitable rail material known to man for model track-building.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

First impression is that you need to wash the chairs more thoroughly before curing. They need a good vigorous plunge to get any uncured resin washed away from the tangs.

Are you using water-washable or IPA washable resin?

There should not really be any significant differences.

Did you print both chairs at the same time?

Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

There looks like small differences is this expected ?

@maverick

Hi Tony,

The only intended difference is in the design of the key. On the solid-jaw chairs the key has a taper on the rail-web face at each end, to ease the process of sliding rail through the chair. On the loose jaws the key has a flat rail-web face as on the prototype, because the rail does not need to slide through them. There are other slight difference simply resulting from the fact that the jaw is a separate component.

There would of course be a very noticeable difference if you use the wrong loose jaw for a given chair. The jaws are colour-coded in the chairing dialog.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[maverick]

First impression is that you need to wash the chairs more thoroughly before curing. They need a good vigorous plunge to get any uncured resin washed away from the tangs.

Are you using water-washable or IPA washable resin?

There should not really be any significant differences.

Did you print both chairs at the same time?

Steve

Hi Steve ,
Very well washed with ipa , this is ESun abs like resin and also
Put into the unltasonic cleaner thst takes all the resin off

All 3 prints were done at the same time , fixed , loose and jaws
Tony

 

[maverick]

@maverick

Hi Tony,

The only intended difference is in the design of the key. On the solid-jaw chairs the key has a taper on the rail-web face at each end, to ease the process of sliding rail through the chair. On the loose jaws the key has a flat rail-web face as on the prototype, because the rail does not need to slide through them. There are other slight difference simply resulting from the fact that the jaw is a separate component.

cheers,

Martin.

Thanks Martin . When I get my rail I can test fitting , I think I will need to tweak exposure and shrinkage settings
Tony

 

[Hayfield]

@maverick

Hi Tony,



C+L is the most well-established of the other suppliers, but his mail order can be painfully slow (a one-man band who is attending an exhibition with his trade stand almost every weekend).



Martin.

Firstly C&L is a one man band cottage industry like many small model railway suppliers. Works on his own and we tend to judge companies by Amazon standards of next day delivery (my quickest delivery was ordered at 7:30 pm delivered just before 10am). But when Pete Lewellyn tried to run a next day delivery service with staff, it nearly broke the company

In a minority of cases, yes there have been some long delays. BUT in every case I got involved with, the customers never spoke with Phil and in the main the order was waiting for out of stock items. A quick phone call would have sorted out the issue

In the majority of cases orders are dispatched in a few days using Royal Mail. I think that's acceptable

Phil has stated many times he has issues with emails, and has asked for customers to firstly order on line, then phone him (yes he does answer the phone!!) simply to to confirm all of the order is in stock, if not does the customer want the in stock items sent with the out of stock items to follow (at an additional price (he is a small business) )

As you say when something goes on the web and it sticks, Phil's turnaround of a few days is much better than many small suppliers and in my opinion he uses the most reliable delivery company

Martin this is not aimed at you but there are some modelers out there who seem to take pleasure in moaning about either Phil or C&L, without good cause or reason (mostly the old guard involved with certain societies).

In the main I have found he is the quickest supplier of model railway products I buy from. I have waited up to 6 months for some orders to be fulfilled by some very reputable companies, no other company I use offers a next day service

Rant over

John