Rail for 3D track?

[Stephen Freeman]

Firstly C&L is a one man band cottage industry like many small model railway suppliers. Works on his own and we tend to judge companies by Amazon standards of next day delivery (my quickest delivery was ordered at 7:30 pm delivered just before 10am). But when Pete Lewellyn tried to run a next day delivery service with staff, it nearly broke the company

In a minority of cases, yes there have been some long delays. BUT in every case I got involved with, the customers never spoke with Phil and in the main the order was waiting for out of stock items. A quick phone call would have sorted out the issue

In the majority of cases orders are dispatched in a few days using Royal Mail. I think that's acceptable

Phil has stated many times he has issues with emails, and has asked for customers to firstly order on line, then phone him (yes he does answer the phone!!) simply to to confirm all of the order is in stock, if not does the customer want the in stock items sent with the out of stock items to follow (at an additional price (he is a small business) )

As you say when something goes on the web and it sticks, Phil's turnaround of a few days is much better than many small suppliers and in my opinion he uses the most reliable delivery company

Martin this is not aimed at you but there are some modelers out there who seem to take pleasure in moaning about either Phil or C&L, without good cause or reason (mostly the old guard involved with certain societies).

In the main I have found he is the quickest supplier of model railway products I buy from. I have waited up to 6 months for some orders to be fulfilled by some very reputable companies, no other company I use offers a next day service

Rant over

John

Pity the overseas modeller in a different time zone, or in a country he doesn't ship to, (that may or not be a problem currently, who knows, neither do you know the cost of carriage until you contact him to place the order). All in all I prefer certainty as do many others. I don't do shows and if I did there would be a not inconsiderable cost in attendance. So cheaper, I don't think so.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Martin this is not aimed at you but there are some modelers out there who seem to take pleasure in moaning about either Phil or C&L, without good cause or reason .

@Hayfield

Hi John,

I have been a sole trader myself supplying track parts and materials, so I know full well the difficulties and frustrations involved. That was a long time ago, before the internet, and I know things are now very different.

I can only say that my own experience of obtaining stuff from Phil has been less than ideal. Nowadays it would be really easy to add PayPal to his web site, and provide some sort of instant acknowledgement that an order has been received and paid for.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Pity the overseas modeller in a different time zone, or in a country he doesn't ship to, (that may or not be a problem currently, who knows, neither do you know the cost of carriage until you contact him to place the order). All in all I prefer certainty as do many others. I don't do shows and if I did there would be a not inconsiderable cost in attendance. So cheaper, I don't think so.

If it was not for Phil, C&L would not exist full stop.
Then Phil has spent thousands of £'s on both repairing old tools but More importantly investing in new tools for new products

It is NOT against the law not to be IT savey, some people cannot hack it which includes many of our cottage industry favorite model railway companies, no one else get's the stick Phil does and he has both invested in a new website and its better than most other "cottage industry Firms" websites

I am totally against our "woke society" where some folk take offence at the drop of a pin. BUT Phil has often stated he has a condition where using emails is difficult. He has designed a system which he can work, having this system helps him to keep things going for the benefit of all

Phil works in UK working time zone, exactly like many other cottage industries and they all deserve a life outside railway modelling. For those in other time zones just organize a time which is convenient to both of you. Or find a friend in the UK who can act as a go between.

I know of at least two traders who steer clear of online model railway forums due to the constant drivel of inaccurate information

In the past I have been contacted by quite a few people who seemingly had issues with C&L. With all but one a simple phone call would and did solve the issue. How can Phil solve an issue if he knows nothing about it, yet some were happy to go on line and complain about something when the issue was caused by not making a simple phone call

Phil regularly updates his website on the occasions he is not contactable, he complains no body takes any notice of it

I have been waiting for two months plus for some items which I paid for (into 3 figures), it will come but in its own time. The longest I have waited from one of the top small suppliers was over 6mths (nearer 9) I was just happy to receive the parts I required

At one point Phil did have a massive issue with his business premises, which affected his ability to work (he had to move out and work from temporary accommodation). Thankfully this is now resolved as Phil has a new property which has been altered to give him a proper working environment. But remember this is an issue that affects most cottage industries working at home and in the South East land/property is expensive and not easily available

 

[Hayfield]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

I have been a sole trader myself supplying track parts and materials, so I know full well the difficulties and frustrations involved. That was a long time ago, before the internet, and I know things are now very different.

I can only say that my own experience of obtaining stuff from Phil has been less than ideal. Nowadays it would be really easy to add PayPal to his web site, and provide some sort of instant acknowledgement that an order has been received and paid for.

cheers,

Martin.

Martin

Phil's website is one of the better ones when looking at cottage industry providers, I doubt if PayPal would add any real benefit. In the main his site works and he like many others is to a certain extent IT challenged.

I must admit being a little frustrated at times, not with his mail order but when with him at shows, but its Phil's business and his prerogative to run it how he wants. I did like it on the odd occasion to be proved right though.

The 2 main issues Phil had with supplies was, at the beginning when the stock was just thrown into boxes with incorrect descriptions if any, it was a logistics nightmare. Then a couple of years ago when Phil for health reasons had to vacate his property and work in challenging temporary conditions. Lets face it at the last Scaleforum, the Scaleforum were getting rid of the many odds and sods from Exactoscale (many going back to Bernard's time) they have has Exactoscale for a few years

I have no problems navigating and or buying from his site, neither do I have any issues using his business telephone number, even though I have his mobile and home numbers.

Business has changed from your days, we all love the Amazon affect. C&L nearly went bust trying to match it

John

 

[Paul Boyd]

If it was not for Phil, C&L would not exist full stop.
Then Phil has spent thousands of £'s on both repairing old tools but More importantly investing in new tools for new products

It is NOT against the law not to be IT savey, some people cannot hack it which includes many of our cottage industry favorite model railway companies, no one else get's the stick Phil does and he has both invested in a new website and its better than most other "cottage industry Firms" websites

I am totally against our "woke society" where some folk take offence at the drop of a pin. BUT Phil has often stated he has a condition where using emails is difficult. He has designed a system which he can work, having this system helps him to keep things going for the benefit of all

Phil works in UK working time zone, exactly like many other cottage industries and they all deserve a life outside railway modelling. For those in other time zones just organize a time which is convenient to both of you. Or find a friend in the UK who can act as a go between.

I know of at least two traders who steer clear of online model railway forums due to the constant drivel of inaccurate information

In the past I have been contacted by quite a few people who seemingly had issues with C&L. With all but one a simple phone call would and did solve the issue. How can Phil solve an issue if he knows nothing about it, yet some were happy to go on line and complain about something when the issue was caused by not making a simple phone call

Phil regularly updates his website on the occasions he is not contactable, he complains no body takes any notice of it

I have been waiting for two months plus for some items which I paid for (into 3 figures), it will come but in its own time. The longest I have waited from one of the top small suppliers was over 6mths (nearer 9) I was just happy to receive the parts I required

At one point Phil did have a massive issue with his business premises, which affected his ability to work (he had to move out and work from temporary accommodation). Thankfully this is now resolved as Phil has a new property which has been altered to give him a proper working environment. But remember this is an issue that affects most cottage industries working at home and in the South East land/property is expensive and not easily available

John, I think you need to declare what your interest is in C&L. You’re always extremely defensive (sometimes rightly so) but it often feels as if there’s more to it. Do you have a financial interest in, for instance?

For what it’s worth, I have bought stuff from Phil and whilst the experience can be a little frustrating, my order has always arrived.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Steve_Cornford]

7mm rail
In order to model british standard gauge bullhead track in 7mm scale using the Templot 3D options, would I be right in assuming that C&L code 131 is the most accurate choice?
4mm rail
In 4mm scale, would I be right in assuming that C&L/EMGS/S4 Society code 75 be the most accurate choice?

I do know that the EMGS code 75 is identical to the S4 Society rail, as the S4 Society stores supply the EMGS with their rail.

Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

In many ways I think Phil's problem is similar to my problem with Templot.

The web site gives the impression that the whole thing is a streamlined operation from a substantial business, when the truth is that it's just one man doing his best to keep on top of things, and have a life of his own at the same time.

And in Templot's case no longer a business at all.

It's all about managing expectations.

If the web site was a bit more amateurish-looking, folks expectations would better match the actual service he can provide, and they would be a bit more understanding when things don't go strictly to plan.

Wording can make a big difference. For example, the very first words on the web site:

"C & L Finescale are the suppliers of a proven range of..."

"Are" and "suppliers" means to most readers that at the very least there is more than one person in the office, and maybe an entire office block full.

How about:

"C & L Finecale is a one-man business run by Phil Reid, supplying those hard-to-get components that model track builders need."

If he has trouble handling email, why have this page inviting folks to contact him by entering an email address:

https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/contact-us

Why not scrub that page and have a simple message saying the best way to contact me is to give me a ring?

And why put a map on there, suggesting that there are retail premises which could be visited?

If you are a friend of Phil, perhaps you could help with some such changes to better explain the nature of the C&L operation to viewers of his web site?

---

Much the same applies to me here with Templot. It's 13 years now since I was trading and supplying Templot as a paid-for product. But much of the wording here still suggests that. I have been trying recently to change the words and make the shambolic truth clear to everyone.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

John, I think you need to declare what your interest is in C&L. You’re always extremely defensive (sometimes rightly so) but it often feels as if there’s more to it. Do you have a financial interest in, for instance?

For what it’s worth, I have bought stuff from Phil and whilst the experience can be a little frustrating, my order has always arrived.

Cheers,
Paul

Paul

More than happy to, I became friendly with Pete Lewellen (previous owner) many years ago, simply initially with my interest in C&L products then was able to help with the Exactoscale products when C&L took over the range, as a friend helped him take down the stall at the end of shows which I attended. Towards the end of Pete's ownership was asked to give Phil a hand at local to me shows, as Pete was having issues with his back. Never on the pay roll, I think a few times I accepted a small contribution towards petrol. Just helping a friend out, plus wanted to help keep the range available. Peter gave me products (I brought quite a lot) at the same rates as other track builders

When Phil took over, I again helped him at local shows to me, never received a penny from Phil or even a free meal. Simply doing a favor to friends who were trying to keep a range of products going that I used. I don't think Phil ever gave me discount, but I also enjoyed the crack on a stand at an exhibition

Now I buy very little from Phil especially as I am now interested in 7mm COT track

The reason I stick up for Phil, I am equally as P****d off with unmerited statements on some forums by a very small group who don't deal with him but try to put him down along with his business at every opportunity they can, mostly old guard society members seemingly with a grudge. I feel for him and some other traders who suffer from comments which they cannot reply

Through my work benches I have and do offer a service of contacting Phil to resolve issues. As I said in all but 1 case a simple phone call would have and did resolve the issue. I rarely use either his mobile or home phone to contact him, just phone at a reasonable time and avoid Fridays and Mondays when he attends shows,

My dealings with C&L are simply helping someone who has become a friend, plus trying my best in keeping a range in existence which nearly became extinct. Never had a penny of discount from Phil let alone any payment ( its against his religion called open all hours)

I am not having a dig at Martin, far from it. But if I think something is wrong I will stand up and say so, especially when its aimed at a friend. As I would and do for Martin and Templot

As for a financial interest, I have better things to do with my money. Not everyone has a hidden agenda or do things for a payment. I hope you find this acceptable

John

 

[Hayfield]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

In many ways I think Phil's problem is similar to my problem with Templot.

The web site gives the impression that the whole thing is a streamlined operation from a substantial business, when the truth is that it's just one man doing his best to keep on top of things, and have a life of his own at the same time.

And in Templot's case no longer a business at all.

It's all about managing expectations.

If the web site was a bit more amateurish-looking, folks expectations would better match the actual service he can provide, and they would be a bit more understanding when things don't go strictly to plan.

Wording can make a big difference. For example, the very first words on the web site:

"C & L Finescale are the suppliers of a proven range of..."

"Are" and "suppliers" means to most readers that at the very least there is more than one person in the office, and maybe an entire office block full.

How about:

"C & L Finecale is a one-man business run by Phil Reid, supplying those hard-to-get components that model track builders need."

If he has trouble handling email, why have this page inviting folks to contact him by entering an email address:

https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/contact-us

Why not scrub that page and have a simple message saying the best way to contact me is to give me a ring?

And why put a map on there, suggesting that there are retail premises which could be visited?

If you are a friend of Phil, perhaps you could help with some such changes to better explain the nature of the C&L operation to viewers of his web site?

---

Much the same applies to me here with Templot. It's 13 years now since I was trading and supplying Templot as a paid-for product. But much of the wording here still suggests that. I have been trying recently to change the words and make the shambolic truth clear to everyone.

cheers,

Martin.

Martin

Thanks for the suggestions, I have in the past tried to advise Phil on certain matters from the website to roller gauges. In the main its like trying to stop a supertanker with a rowing boat

I have found with a lot of model railway firms they are run by characters, and if they did not exist the business would not exist.

I have learnt Phil is like a dog with a bone, and if not for that C&L would not exist, pure and simple. He has poured thousands into the business. And seemingly making it work

Yes there is a lot that could be done to improve the business, but he has also done a lot to improve the business

Phil has often said he has issues with business, plus likes things to be done in a way he can handle it. I cannot say more than this because I don't know any more. Its just he needs things to be done in a certain way, I have found simply to work this way with him, and it works

But this I have found is very common with some small suppliers, they work their own way.

John

 

[Paul Boyd]

Paul

More than happy to, I became friendly with Pete Lewellen (previous owner) many years ago, simply initially with my interest in C&L products then was able to help with the Exactoscale products when C&L took over the range, as a friend helped him take down the stall at the end of shows which I attended. Towards the end of Pete's ownership was asked to give Phil a hand at local to me shows, as Pete was having issues with his back. Never on the pay roll, I think a few times I accepted a small contribution towards petrol. Just helping a friend out, plus wanted to help keep the range available. Peter gave me products (I brought quite a lot) at the same rates as other track builders

When Phil took over, I again helped him at local shows to me, never received a penny from Phil or even a free meal. Simply doing a favor to friends who were trying to keep a range of products going that I used. I don't think Phil ever gave me discount, but I also enjoyed the crack on a stand at an exhibition

Now I buy very little from Phil especially as I am now interested in 7mm COT track

The reason I stick up for Phil, I am equally as P****d off with unmerited statements on some forums by a very small group who don't deal with him but try to put him down along with his business at every opportunity they can, mostly old guard society members seemingly with a grudge. I feel for him and some other traders who suffer from comments which they cannot reply

Through my work benches I have and do offer a service of contacting Phil to resolve issues. As I said in all but 1 case a simple phone call would have and did resolve the issue. I rarely use either his mobile or home phone to contact him, just phone at a reasonable time and avoid Fridays and Mondays when he attends shows,

My dealings with C&L are simply helping someone who has become a friend, plus trying my best in keeping a range in existence which nearly became extinct. Never had a penny of discount from Phil let alone any payment ( its against his religion called open all hours)

I am not having a dig at Martin, far from it. But if I think something is wrong I will stand up and say so, especially when its aimed at a friend. As I would and do for Martin and Templot

As for a financial interest, I have better things to do with my money. Not everyone has a hidden agenda or do things for a payment. I hope you find this acceptable

John

Hi John

Thank you for the far more comprehensive reply than I was expecting! I was just curious as to why you were so defensive and now I understand why. I do hope that Phil has at least bought you a beer, or whatever your tipple is!

Your comment to Martin about people being "characters" - I think back to Brian Lewis, who was certainly a character! I visited his home and C&L premises years ago to help with a computer problem and it's clear that he had far more resource than the usual small business to run C&L. The C&L warehouse alone was huge! In the spirit of my question to you, perhaps I should say that I did benefit financially from fixing his computer in the form of a "supermarket sweep" of the aforementioned warehouse, where Brian was filling my basket for me because I was embarrassed to just help myself!

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Hayfield]

Hi John

Thank you for the far more comprehensive reply than I was expecting! I was just curious as to why you were so defensive and now I understand why. I do hope that Phil has at least bought you a beer, or whatever your tipple is!

Your comment to Martin about people being "characters" - I think back to Brian Lewis, who was certainly a character! I visited his home and C&L premises years ago to help with a computer problem and it's clear that he had far more resource than the usual small business to run C&L. The C&L warehouse alone was huge! In the spirit of my question to you, perhaps I should say that I did benefit financially from fixing his computer in the form of a "supermarket sweep" of the aforementioned warehouse, where Brian was filling my basket for me because I was embarrassed to just help myself!

Cheers,
Paul

Paul

Brian was running C&L just as I was coming back into railway modelling, my impressions were Brian was more of a salesman than a character, but a large warehouse was taken over by Peter when he brought C&L along with a few surprises. But running a business needs lots of different skills, sadly Peter was defeated by an old industrial injury with his back.

The history of K&L then C&L is littered with different owners, but the same can be said with many small firms in our hobby, ranges are taken over and or absorbed into other ranges

Ratio for instance made 4mm scale wooden coach kits in Rickmansworth, now part of the Peco empire in the west country. At one point there was a mutual buying syndicate between Peter at C&L and Len at Exactoscale, I think Len also assisted with one or more companies with their tooling

Getting back to the subject, It is all to easy criticize without knowing all the facts, small companies do not have the resources as large ones, likewise one man bands have even less resources. Some working hand to mouth, others have full time jobs, others run by retired people.

They all need our support

John

 

[Jim Guthrie]

Your comment to Martin about people being "characters" - I think back to Brian Lewis, who was certainly a character! I visited his home and C&L premises years ago to help with a computer problem and it's clear that he had far more resource than the usual small business to run C&L. The C&L warehouse alone was huge! In the spirit of my question to you, perhaps I should say that I did benefit financially from fixing his computer in the form of a "supermarket sweep" of the aforementioned warehouse, where Brian was filling my basket for me because I was embarrassed to just help myself!

I knew Brian Lewis quite well and visited his house several times where the C&L operation was a well built building attached to the house. Brian ran a good operation but what he did have was a frequent small army of helpers to assist him. I don't know who they were - friends or relatives or both - but they did a lot of the donkey work in return for a very comfortable bed and Mrs. Lewis' hospitality. I've often wondered if Phil could have magiced up a similar low cost army to help him out.

I also remember Brian telling me the costs he had to cover to update or renew the moulds when he took the business over from the previous owner. It was a lot of money and minimum orders for new chairs had very high minimum order quantities.

Critics should get to know more about the rail and chair business. I remember the SSMRS ordering a run of Code87 bullhead rail from Wintwire. The late Trevor Nunn was handling the order and he was looking for 1000 yards to match the minimum run of injection moulded chairs. About 1800 yards was delivered because that was the length generated by the billet of nickel siver used and the society had to pay almost double the cost expected.

Jim.

 

[Paul Boyd]

I knew Brian Lewis quite well and visited his house several times where the C&L operation was a well built building attached to the house. Brian ran a good operation but what he did have was a frequent small army of helpers to assist him. I don't know who they were - friends or relatives or both - but they did a lot of the donkey work in return for a very comfortable bed and Mrs. Lewis' hospitality. I've often wondered if Phil could have magiced up a similar low cost army to help him out.

I also remember Brian telling me the costs he had to cover to update or renew the moulds when he took the business over from the previous owner. It was a lot of money and minimum orders for new chairs had very high minimum order quantities.

Critics should get to know more about the rail and chair business. I remember the SSMRS ordering a run of Code87 bullhead rail from Wintwire. The late Trevor Nunn was handling the order and he was looking for 1000 yards to match the minimum run of injection moulded chairs. About 1800 yards was delivered because that was the length generated by the billet of nickel siver used and the society had to pay almost double the cost expected.

Jim.

Hi Jim,

Brian's army of helpers were part of the resource I mentioned!

We have a similar problem to the length of rail at work, but with extruded aluminium rather than rolled wire. We have to buy a 250kg billet of aluminium at a time and the resulting extrusions (a front and a back, 250kg each) last us for many years! At least we can spread the machining out, and the machining company doesn't charge us for storing the raw extrusion.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Rob Manchester]

I agree with Martin's view in that people anticipate differing levels of service when you have a flash web site. There isn't anything wrong with operating a 'one man business' and taking orders either by phone or even by post - we are dealing with hobby products here and many of us have other projects to work on while waiting for the order to arrive. George Watts manages to supply his gauges and tools like this (which are well made and quickly delivered ) and there are quite a few others producing etches and such like without email/Paypal or black friday deals!

Suggestion for Phil ( via John ) would be to concentrate on core products. It is OK having wagon kits and other products tacked on to give a wider product range and a stand that looks impressive at shows ( which Phil's does ) but try not to overstretch things. I don't know the story behind Derek Russan at Eileen's but he would not have been expected to be having troubles.

Brian Lewis was/is brilliant. You just needed to be on his wavelength when he could quickly become a friend.

Rob

 

[maverick]

Well what alot of replies . Interesting to read everyone's opinion.
I spoke to Phil yesterday and I really enjoyed the chat. I ended up ordering code 75 and 131 as he doesn't to 125. I have to say he was completely honest and upfront as to how the website worked he told me probably can't send for as few days and you know what that's ok.

I would much prefer his approach than the terrible experience with Precision Paints and DHL. Odering and paying was simple - Parcel was lost, no signature, DHL lied and told me it was delivered to another house 7 doors away with no signature, they stuff a paper card through my door that simply read "Under Cover / Rubble Sack with Breeze blocks". I sent 2 email to PP but got deleted as they had photos on there (have you ever heard of that - a business email throws away emails because they have photo attachments and no auto reply. Therefore PP never got back to me, finally called then today and they emailed me to report it was delivered 7 doors away. £66 quid lost.
Not happy.

 

[Martin Wynne]

£66 quid lost.
Not happy.

@maverick

Hi Tony,

DHL's contract is with PP, not you. PP have failed to supply and should replace or refund. It is up to them to take up the matter with DHL.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Jim Guthrie]

Brian Lewis was/is brilliant. You just needed to be on his wavelength when he could quickly become a friend.

I remember popping over to his house to pick up some more of his S scale Timbertracks products (email in the morning from me, email back from Brian that sheet is in the cutter, ready early afternoon). We were sitting at his desk having a cup of Mrs. Lewis' tea and I mentioned that the SSMRS society were having great problems in getting supplies of wagon wheels on axles from our then supplier. Brian then picks up the phone, dials, says "David, here's someone who needs your help", and hands me the phone to talk to David White at Slaters. Discussions were opened which were carried on a day or two later and Slaters became our supplier with excellent wheels. I've a feeling that Brian probably followed up to see if David had sorted something out.

Jim.

 

[Rob Manchester]

£66 quid lost.
Not happy.

Hi Tony,
Parcel deliveries can be a bit of a minefield. It is what is refered to as the 'last mile' that causes the issues. Anybody can drive a lorry from London to Manchester when going between depots. Some companies operate well in certain areas, not so much in others. I have been happy with DPD which seems by far the most common one used by business sellers but people in other areas may have different experiences. I can divert most of the parcels from them to the DPD locker which is 10 minutes walk away if I am going to be out. If ordering from (almost) anywhere in the UK you can get DPD to go the sellers address and collect the parcel which then gets it to you a couple of days later. See their website and click on 'Send'. The only slight issue is that whilst they send an email to the seller informing them of the parcel collection time that may not suit a small business who may have other things going on during the day. As Martin points out a business seller is responsible for the safe delivery of the parcel. If you send your choice of courier then I guess they are responsible as soon as it is collected.

I have heard of too many budget courier deliveries going pear shaped, stories of parcel being opened so they could squeeze items through letterboxes or parcels being thrown over garden walls and landing with the goldfish ! The image of a battered Toyota Yaris with it's boot open, full of parcels while the driver wanders up and down the street trying to find a place to leave the parcel isn't exactly calming on the nerves...........

Rob

 

[Stephen Freeman]

I remember popping over to his house to pick up some more of his S scale Timbertracks products (email in the morning from me, email back from Brian that sheet is in the cutter, ready early afternoon). We were sitting at his desk having a cup of Mrs. Lewis' tea and I mentioned that the SSMRS society were having great problems in getting supplies of wagon wheels on axles from our then supplier. Brian then picks up the phone, dials, says "David, here's someone who needs your help", and hands me the phone to talk to David White at Slaters. Discussions were opened which were carried on a day or two later and Slaters became our supplier with excellent wheels. I've a feeling that Brian probably followed up to see if David had sorted something out.

Jim.

He still sells the Timbertracks stuff even if he says he is trying to retire, can't blame him for that, none of us are getting any younger. I have a reasonable amount of his 7mm scale timber strips on hand, which will probably suffice for me. He did bring the Coopercraft 7mm wagon kits up to a better spec, mainly I think because he wanted a few for his own layout but we all were the beneficiaries of his actions, plus he actually saved C&L from disappearing altogether at the time he took it over.

 

[Hayfield]

I knew Brian Lewis quite well and visited his house several times where the C&L operation was a well built building attached to the house. Brian ran a good operation but what he did have was a frequent small army of helpers to assist him. I don't know who they were - friends or relatives or both - but they did a lot of the donkey work in return for a very comfortable bed and Mrs. Lewis' hospitality. I've often wondered if Phil could have magiced up a similar low cost army to help him out.

I also remember Brian telling me the costs he had to cover to update or renew the moulds when he took the business over from the previous owner. It was a lot of money and minimum orders for new chairs had very high minimum order quantities.

Critics should get to know more about the rail and chair business. I remember the SSMRS ordering a run of Code87 bullhead rail from Wintwire. The late Trevor Nunn was handling the order and he was looking for 1000 yards to match the minimum run of injection moulded chairs. About 1800 yards was delivered because that was the length generated by the billet of nickel siver used and the society had to pay almost double the cost expected.

Jim.

Jim

Firstly 10 plus years ago I had a chat with Mark of "Markit fame", at his workshop when I was picking up an order, assistance was something I mentioned. The simple fact was the range was so large, even with some form of model railway knowledge, it would take months to get someone up to speed

As for C&L Phil has friends but most have jobs to do, I have on a few occasions gone to Surry to help him fulfil orders when he had to move out of the house for health reasons. Its very difficult for someone to be quickly up to speed to add value rather than hinder. His range of products is massive, its not just plastic chairs and rails which make up a small percentage of his inventory.

Phil moved house 2 years ago and now he has a purpose built and fitted out room, this in itself does make a massive difference, but the business has proved it cannot support more than one person.

Minimum orders are getting bigger and bigger resulting in capital tied up in stock which takes ages to sell. The onething that has reduced is the tooling but its costs have to be spread over years.

I am not saying Phil is perfect or the business could be run differently. BUT what no one accepts is that C&L was days away from shutting down for ever. A previous negotiated sale to an existing model railway company fell apart. For the first time in years not only have the existing tools been rebuilt/up graded, but new products have been released.

Phil had issues at the start, mainly due to the wat the C&L & Exactoscale products had been thrown into packing boxes (some of this was from the time Exactoscale transferred from Len to Pete. Not on this site but on other forums there was a small group wishing him to fail. Phil has stuck it out and moved the business on, just remember he is not Amazon

 

[Hayfield]

I agree with Martin's view in that people anticipate differing levels of service when you have a flash web site. There isn't anything wrong with operating a 'one man business' and taking orders either by phone or even by post - we are dealing with hobby products here and many of us have other projects to work on while waiting for the order to arrive. George Watts manages to supply his gauges and tools like this (which are well made and quickly delivered ) and there are quite a few others producing etches and such like without email/Paypal or black friday deals!

Suggestion for Phil ( via John ) would be to concentrate on core products. It is OK having wagon kits and other products tacked on to give a wider product range and a stand that looks impressive at shows ( which Phil's does ) but try not to overstretch things. I don't know the story behind Derek Russan at Eileen's but he would not have been expected to be having troubles.

Brian Lewis was/is brilliant. You just needed to be on his wavelength when he could quickly become a friend.

Rob

Rob

People moan about poor websites, Phil invested in a new one. Now its too good !!! You just cannot please everyone

The core business does not pay the bills, it needs the other areas to keep going

Phil cannot offer a phone up and sent the next day, not even to me.

He has a system which works for him, which he can handle

 

[Hayfield]

Well what alot of replies . Interesting to read everyone's opinion.
I spoke to Phil yesterday and I really enjoyed the chat. I ended up ordering code 75 and 131 as he doesn't to 125. I have to say he was completely honest and upfront as to how the website worked he told me probably can't send for as few days and you know what that's ok.

I would much prefer his approach than the terrible experience with Precision Paints and DHL. Odering and paying was simple - Parcel was lost, no signature, DHL lied and told me it was delivered to another house 7 doors away with no signature, they stuff a paper card through my door that simply read "Under Cover / Rubble Sack with Breeze blocks". I sent 2 email to PP but got deleted as they had photos on there (have you ever heard of that - a business email throws away emails because they have photo attachments and no auto reply. Therefore PP never got back to me, finally called then today and they emailed me to report it was delivered 7 doors away. £66 quid lost.
Not happy.

Distant selling rules simply allows you to get your money back, I always use my credit card, but with debit cards you can get charge back for non delivered goods

Phil is a nice chap who is a pleasure to deal with

 

[Richardb]

In the interest of democracy, I ordered from C&L on Monday some code 75 BH and rail joiners which arrived yesterday with royal mail.