Templot5 and plug track - progress discussions

[Martin Wynne]

.
I have added para 1a to the Templot terms of use: https://85a.uk/templot/companion/terms_of_use.php

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TEMPLOT SOFTWARE -- TERMS OF USE

Templot software is made available for your use subject to the following terms:

1. Templot2 software is the result of countless hours of development work over many years. It is and remains the copyright intellectual property of Martin Wynne. Nothing in these terms of use changes that.

1a. Templot5 software is the copyright intellectual property of OpenTemplot contributors, licensed for use under the terms of the GNU General Public Licence.

---

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Martin,

I have added another setting to the FDM shrinkage settings:

Have you added this (& any other new) parameter to the Save/Load procedures?

Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

Have you added this (& any other new) parameter to the Save/Load procedures?

Hi Steve,

Yes -- and two more I'm just about to add (timber thickness and web thickness for COT track).

if NodeIndexOf(FindNode('fdm_rail_fit_factor'))<>-1
then fdm_rail_fit_factor:=ReadFloat('fdm_rail_fit_factor',0); // FDM chairs (COT track) MW

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

In a lot of places the help note in the plug track dialogs is "refer to the Templot Club forum".

That could be replaced with a short explanation? Or a link to a post on Templot Club?

I have added a function in help_sheet.pas for club links, I will push it now so that you can test it:

// club link = club_ref12345.85a ..

if Copy(new_url,1,8)='club_ref' then begin club_help_click(Copy(new_url,9,255)); EXIT; end; // 555a MW

In the help note:

Click <A HREF="club_ref12986.85a"> for more about ...</A> ...

The ref number is the green message ref at the bottom of every post here.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Steve,

Now pushed/merged.

In the help note:

Click <A HREF="club_ref12986.85a"> for more about ...</A> ...

The ref number is the green message ref at the bottom of every post here.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

.
Well that works, but this is better. Pushed again.

Martin.

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Hi Martin,
Also looking at the drawing:-
BS95R ord'y chair length 14.5", inbolt/outbolt separation 11", gives inbolt & outbolt y value of 3.5"/2 = 1.75" from end of chair
OO ord'y chair length 15.5", inbolt/outbolt separation 12", gives inbolt & outbolt y value of 3.5"/2 = 1.75" from end of chair

In your chair_unit, all the _bolts_from_end variables are set to 1.75", which I thought was interesting.
I was thinking the "bolts_from_end" should be a family attribute rather that a prototype chair attribute?

We need a source of some SECR, LSWR, MR, LNWR chair drawings.

I have found some SECR & LSWR & SR darwings in Southern Times, but facsimile is rather poor.
Steve

Southern Way No 16 may be helpful. Amongst other details are drawings for SE&CR switches 1 and 2 and SER chair 82lb rail (so quite early 2 bolt). The South Western Circle may have something for the LSWR. Not sure on LNWR, I may have something. Midland Railway Society have a book on that railways track.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Stephen,
Sorry, I meant Southern Way, not Times.
@Stephen Freeman , @James Walters
By the way I noticed that on the SECR chair that James has acquired the word "middle" is cast onto the chair.

Steve

 

[James Walters]

It also has my initials on it.
Here's a drawing.

 

[James Walters]

And a Chatham section 'middle chair'. I think the joint chair/fish chair (or whatever it's called) might be difficult to categorise in your system Steve.

 

[James Walters]

Whilst we're at it, how about a 1905 GWR drawing. Note the corner radii.

 

[Phil G]

re difference position of the three holes. On face value having only one bolt on the gauging side and two on the keyway seems counter intuitive. Until you think about the whole chair is a casting, so it not really going to make any real difference.
cheers
Phil

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield @James Walters

Some progress today on the COT track for 0 gauge in Templot5.

The crossing chairs can have loose jaws. All other chairs with solid jaws. This makes it possible to slide in a pre-bent wing rail with knuckle bend (backwards from the crossing towards the switch). Once in position the loose jaws can be added to lock it in place. The pin slots for the loose jaws are only shallow, so the jaws will have to be glued in place. But there are only 6 of them for most common crossing angles.

Also the spacer blocks can be included. They are supported in place, so that the rails can slide against them into position. The supports under them will be hidden in the ballast, or could be cut away once everything is in place:

All the settings are optional, if not wanted:

I think this is all done, at least for now. So next I need to finish the picture shapes and maps.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi James,

And a Chatham section 'middle chair'. I think the joint chair/fish chair (or whatever it's called) might be difficult to categorise in your system Steve.

If it was left to me, I would just class it as :-
Family = SECR
Chair Type = S1J
Chair Description = Joint chair

and then treat the fishplate as a seperate item called.... err fishplate.

Thanks for posting the drawings.

Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

Whilst we're at it, how about a 1905 GWR drawing. Note the corner radii.

@James Walters

Hi James,

Well that puts me in my place, suggesting that the mismatched corner rads were a drawing error! On the GWR!

But we are no nearer an explanation. Also it throws yet another spanner into Templot, another fix needed to have multiple corner radii.

Are these from the excellent old-pway site? https://www.oldpway.info/opw_drawings.html

Thanks for posting them.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[James Walters]

@James Walters

Hi James,

Well that puts me in my place, suggesting that the mismatched corner rads were a drawing error! On the GWR!

But we are no nearer an explanation. Also it throws yet another spanner into Templot, another fix needed to have multiple corner radii.

Are these from the excellent old-pway site? https://www.oldpway.info/opw_drawings.html

Thanks for posting them.

cheers,

Martin.

Yes they are, the site is amazing, although a rabbit hole from which it is difficult to escape. I even managed to learn that the JW & Co, (as cast into my SE&CR chair) was Joseph Williamson & Co (iron founders) of Wellingborough, who cast all the chairs for the SE&CR.

When you are working upon multiple corner radii, perhaps you could include the cast lettering.

James

 

[Martin Wynne]

But we are no nearer an explanation.

@James Walters

I can think of a possible explanation. If the bolt holes were reamed or bored through, which I think they would need to be to use close-fitting locating bolts in a rough casting, the mismatched corners would prevent the chair being placed the wrong way round in the machining jig.

But I have no idea if that's true.

The REA design avoided the problem by using resilient tapered ferrules in tapered holes as-cast.

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

At S4 scale the difference between a 1.0" rad and a 0.5" rad is 0.006 thou or 0.15mm. Do you think anybody could actually pick that?
I guess for 7 mm scale it becomes a bit more obvious.
cheers
Phil,

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Martin,

Also it throws yet another spanner into Templot, another fix needed to have multiple corner radii.

I thought that you had already catered for differing inner and outer corner radii with variables such as:-
S1_chair_crad_inner
S1_chair_crad_outer
which for GWR could be set as 0.5" and 1.0" respectively, or am i misunderstanding what you mean by "multiple corner radii"?

Steve

 

[Steve_Cornford]

OO ord'y chair length 15.5", inbolt/outbolt separation 12", gives inbolt & outbolt y value of 3.5"/2 = 1.75" from end of chair

Sorry I got this wrong...
Should read the exam paper thoroughly before commenting....
The drawing actually shows the inbolt y value as being 2", and the outbolt y value as being 1.5".
Steve

 

[Steve_Cornford]

As it is a miserable rainy day, I attempted to produce a GWR OO chair:-

The differing inner & outer corner radii seemed to have worked,
but the bolts are both 1.5" from outer ends (as there currently is only one common parameter for this, need to be separate outer ends/inner ends para) rather than 2" and 1.5".

I didnt change any of the jaw parameters.
PLease note this was just a bit of playing to see what might be possible in the dim distant future...

Steve

 

[James Walters]

That's brilliant Steve.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Martin,

I thought that you had already catered for differing inner and outer corner radii with variables such as:-
S1_chair_crad_inner
S1_chair_crad_outer
which for GWR could be set as 0.5" and 1.0" respectively, or am i misunderstanding what you mean by "multiple corner radii"?

Steve

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

Yes and no. I had in mind originally to cater for chairs with semi-circular ends, such as the GWR slide chairs. Setting the corner radius to half the chair width.

But it's one thing to allocate a parameter name, and another to carry it through all the design calculations. There are knock-on effects for the plinth area, plinth corners, plug corners, socket corners, etc. None of which have yet been given any consideration -- it would be all wrong at present:

Also the GWR 00 slide chair strictly needs to be 8-sided, it is 7.1/2" wide at the inner end and 9" wide at the outer end.

So that's a lot of work needed to get something usable. I'm desperately trying to manage expectations and not let folks run away with the idea that any of this is likely any time soon. There is still all the REA stuff to finish first.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

And then there is getting hold of a suitable rail to represent GWR OO rail profile.

I did mention dim distant future.

It does show that you are on the right path with parameter driven furniture though.

And in my defense it is still raining!

Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

As it is a miserable rainy day, I attempted to produce a GWR OO chair:-
View attachment 11081

The differing inner & outer corner radii seemed to have worked,
but the bolts are both 1.5" from outer ends (as there currently is only one common parameter for this, need to be separate outer ends/inner ends para) rather than 2" and 1.5".

I didnt change any of the jaw parameters.
PLease note this was just a bit of playing to see what might be possible in the dim distant future...

Steve

Hi Steve,

It's a brave attempt.

But you have the single inner jaw rib running into the bolt. It should have 2 ribs, one each side.

The only non-REA chair which is reasonably practical in the short term is the GWR and BR(W) 2-bolt version of the REA S1. Made in large numbers in the 1950s.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil O]

And then there is getting hold of a suitable rail to represent GWR OO rail profile.

I did mention dim distant future.

It does show that you are on the right path with parameter driven furniture though.

And in my defense it is still raining!

Steve

Steve,

I can't tell the difference between GW 95 and 00 rail at 12 inches to the foot, so there's absolutely no chance of telling the difference at any scale. To see what's what at full size I have to look at the chair, to see which type it is, or look at the markings on the rail.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

@Stephen Freeman
Hi Stephen,

Southern Way No 16 may be helpful. Amongst other details are drawings for SE&CR switches 1 and 2 and SER chair 82lb rail (so quite early 2 bolt). The South Western Circle may have something for the LSWR. Not sure on LNWR, I may have something. Midland Railway Society have a book on that railways track.

I have found my copy of The Southern Way issue 16.
It does indeed have a drawing depicting SER 82lbs per yd rail, and on the same drawing a 2-bolt chair which is interesting in so far as the bolt holes are offset opposite sides of the centre line of this 14.5" long chair, such that it appears as though the edge of the bolt hole is touching the centre line.
ie inbolt_1x,inbolt_2x = 0.75 and outbolt_1x,outbolt_2x = 0-0.75, as think I read the bolt hole diameter as 1.5", but the drawing is a bit blurry.

Steve

 

[Stephen Freeman]

@Stephen Freeman
Hi Stephen,


I have found my copy of The Southern Way issue 16.
It does indeed have a drawing depicting SER 82lbs per yd rail, and on the same drawing a 2-bolt chair which is interesting in so far as the bolt holes are offset opposite sides of the centre line of this 14.5" long chair, such that it appears as though the edge of the bolt hole is touching the centre line.
ie inbolt_1x,inbolt_2x = 0.75 and outbolt_1x,outbolt_2x = 0-0.75, as think I read the bolt hole diameter as 1.5", but the drawing is a bit blurry.

Steve

Not sure on bolt hole but the fraction looks like something over 16 I think the SER chairs are probably well documented just not sure where.

 

[Martin Wynne]

.
I shall be moving these chair discussions to the prototype section shortly. Interesting though they are, it's going to be confusing to folks having them in this topic. There is no way any of this stuff is going to be in Templot any time soon. Or at least, not if it's me doing the coding.

All help very welcome, see:

https://github.com/Martin-Wynne/Templot5

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Cransford]

Steve,

I can't tell the difference between GW 95 and 00 rail at 12 inches to the foot, so there's absolutely no chance of telling the difference at any scale. To see what's what at full size I have to look at the chair, to see which type it is, or look at the markings on the rail.

Phil,

If recalled correctly, easiest way to tell difference between 95lb and '00' rail was fishbolt centres - 95lb 4.1/2" - 5" - 4.1/2" and '00' 5" - 5" - 5" (I recall many three bolted joints when defective rails changed!). Without checking, I also seem to recall only difference in sections was thickness of web, but might be wrong!

Paul

 

[Michael Woods]

@Hayfield @James Walters

Some progress today on the COT track for 0 gauge in Templot5.

The crossing chairs can have loose jaws. All other chairs with solid jaws. This makes it possible to slide in a pre-bent wing rail with knuckle bend (backwards from the crossing towards the switch). Once in position the loose jaws can be added to lock it in place. The pin slots for the loose jaws are only shallow, so the jaws will have to be glued in place. But there are only 6 of them for most common crossing angles.

Also the spacer blocks can be included. They are supported in place, so that the rails can slide against them into position. The supports under them will be hidden in the ballast, or could be cut away once everything is in place:


View attachment 11077


All the settings are optional, if not wanted:


View attachment 11076


I think this is all done, at least for now. So next I need to finish the picture shapes and maps.

cheers,

Martin.

Martin - in S Scale I managed to build the turnouts using 100% fixed jaws. There was enough strength in the chairs to enable everything to be slid in - a robust push fit but everything held together ok and a good few months later no stress fractures.....maybe the same in 7mm

 

[Hayfield]

Martin - in S Scale I managed to build the turnouts using 100% fixed jaws. There was enough strength in the chairs to enable everything to be slid in - a robust push fit but everything held together ok and a good few months later no stress fractures.....maybe the same in 7mm




View attachment 11087

Michael

The initial test of COT track plus the developments Martin has made in Templot 5 are showing in 7mm scale FDM bases and chairs are fine and robust

Seems better suited to Neptune 4 printers for speed and detail

 

[Michael Woods]

Michael

The initial test of COT track plus the developments Martin has made in Templot 5 are showing in 7mm scale FDM bases and chairs are fine and robust

Seems better suited to Neptune 4 printers for speed and detail

Thanks Steve.....I am trying the same with my gauge 2 project......here is a 30 ft section on my anycubic kobra 2 max. I need to spend some time on the rail profile - i am using gauge 1 rail. Plus I need to look at the printer settings as the chairs formed but I think the printer was running too fast...it is a really fast printer that can get a bit ahead of itself. If i have time this weekend I will try some different settings...but this project is a lower priority to my S Scale interests so will go rather slow.

 

[James Walters]

Not sure on bolt hole but the fraction looks like something over 16 I think the SER chairs are probably well documented just not sure where.

@Steve_Cornford @Stephen Freeman

It looks like 1 7/16ths.
Good quality image here:

https://oldpway.info/drawings/1895pw_pl13_SER.pdf

 

[Stephen Freeman]

@Steve_Cornford @Stephen Freeman

It looks like 1 7/16ths.
Good quality image here:

https://oldpway.info/drawings/1895pw_pl13_SER.pdf

Yes much better

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Steve_Cornford

I have finally persuaded Lazarus not to be frightened of 8-bit map tiles from the NLS.

Which means that the picture shapes and background maps are now working again in T5.

Which also means we are very close to being able to release Templot5. There are still quite a few quirky bits, but as far as I know it is all at least usable, and users will be able to swap back to Templot2 for anything which isn't (e.g. the sketchboard, drag-and-drop, scanning). We can then fix the quirky bits at our leisure later.

So I will push/merge all the WIP files shortly.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

WIP closed and a lot of files pushed/merged.

There is 1 new file in \TEMPLOT5_OUTPUT\internal\hlp\ too.

I am not now working on any T5 files, so you are free to do whatever you think needs doing.

I hope I haven't accidentally reverted any of your work.

Now back in Delphi to get the T2 update done.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Martin,
I have synced my fork, then pulled to my local github.
I then copied my local Github/Templot5 folder & contents to a new local folder on my c: drive called LazarusTemplot5.
I then used Lazarus IDE to open the project file contained there, and performed a Build.
Compiled successfully

I then ran some tests, all seems fine so far.

WIll perform some more testing tomorrow in breaks from my other domestic chores.

Steve

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Martin,

Only problem I have found so far is the usual Delphi > Lazarus conversion of some Tgroupbox objects on the map_clarity form which I will fix with the agreed replacement of TGroupbox with Tpanel+Tlabel.
Templot5 :-

compared with Templot2 :-

Steve

 

[Steve_Cornford]

So after ensuring parenfont = false, and replacing 4 of the Tgroupbox objects with Tpanel + Tlabel objects (leaving the two Tgroupboxes which are same colour as their container), we get:-

so all the radio buttons are now visible.

Would you like resolution : and filter : groupboxes converted to Tpanel + Tlabel as well, or just cosmetically adjusted slightly?

Steve