The 47S Project?

[Martin Wynne]

I was just thinking about the concept of bricks and more importantly the bed size of the FDM printer. and its implications.

I guess my next comment may be a bit transversional, and is not meant as a dig at FDM printing.
But I think the majority of people using plug track to build the trackwork of full layouts. Are using the laser method to create the sleepers and timbers. I can't but think that has as much to do with the bed size of said lasers, typically 400 x 400mm, in addition to the speed the laser generates the timbers.

In other words, lasers with 400 x 400mm do appear to be able to create timbering components much quicker than doing it the FDM method.
Does that matter, I am not sure. But it can't be argued if your looking to build a full layout, the laser is the faster method.

Anyway in reference the purpose to the 47 project. I do think we should also look to include the DXF files required to laser cut the components this way as well.
Please note we must also emphases if you do go the laser route, whist there are other types of software to control the laser lightburn is unquestionably the go to leading software for this application. Lightburn does require a one time purchase cost.
cheers
Phil,

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

I remain to be convinced.

What is the material cost of say 3mm plywood, for the whole 47S layout?

In FDM, a quick dab on the calculator suggests that the whole thing could be done for well under 2 reels of filament, including the filing jigs. That's under £30 total with current costs of PLA+ showing around £13-£16 per reel (Prime):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0BHYZJQY9
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07Y5K1TB5
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FQKP7NS

And if you don't have an FDM printer, what do you do about the filing jigs?

What is the lowest cost of a laser cutter with the required resolution accuracy? Currently a fast FDM printer (Neptune 4) can be had for £175 post free to the UK:

https://www.3djake.uk/elegoo/neptune-4

For a short A-5 turnout in 00-SF using my suggested 0.12mm profile, Cura is saying 2 hours-15 minutes for the Neptune 4. That could be shortened a lot using 0.16mm layers. It doesn't take much forward planning to make some timbering bricks in advance of a track-building session.

Where in a typical home would you put the laser cutter, including the smoke extraction? An FDM printer can be used on the kitchen table if necessary, even while eating your breakfast.

But each to his own. In 10 years time when every modeller has a laser cutter I shall have to eat my words, in addition to my breakfast.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

And if you don't have an FDM printer, what do you do about the filing jigs?

Hi Martin,
Two things, nowhere did I say anything about there is no place for a FDM printer. clearly there is.
More to the point was simply saying two things.
1, The bed size of a laser is typically 400 x 400 which could be a big benefit no matter which system you use.
2, why can't we add DXF files to the 47 project? Or are you basically making this project exclusively for FDM printed timbers? If so I think that will be a missed opportunity.
The debate should not be what option people want to choose, its about presenting the choice. That is all I was getting at.

As to your question about the smoke, why don't you ask all the people on this forum who have got and are using Lasers to build there layouts?

Personally speaking I have a purpose built wheeled table for my laser, which has both smoke and fire protection built in to the cover system. In my case I simply wheel it onto my deck.
If I was purchasing a new one I would get a Falcon 2 most likely 22w for cost reasons. (Although I note James seems to be pushing his 60W unit in his videos) ensuing it comes complete with hood and extraction.
cheers
Phil,

 

[Phil G]

Hi Phil,
What does lightburn give you that is not already in the .DXF file?
Steve

Hi Steve,
Lightburn is simply the best software to interface with the laser, in other words you take the DXF file and import it into the chosen Laser control software. be it Lightburn or laser GRBL (free version) and from there you can control the laser.
Given laser power and cutting speed are key things to control with lasers, the software to control these is important, and its generally accepted Lightburn is the best. But its not a free piece of software.
Quite a few of James early videos do explain this topic very well, and are worth watching.
cheers
Phil,

 

[Martin Wynne]

2, why can't we add DXF files to the 47 project? Or are you basically making this project exclusively for FDM printed timbers? If so I think that will be a missed opportunity.
The debate should not be what option people want to choose, its about presenting the choice. That is all I was getting at.

@Phil G

Steady on, Phil.

I haven't said anything about excluding anything. Nor have I decided actually to do anything. I was just floating an idea.

The basic idea being that you get to try making some 3D-printed track without needing to know anything about Templot or even switching it on.

Anyone capable of using a laser cutter and Lightburn is clearly capable of understanding Templot enough to export their own files. The BOX file would be available for anyone to do anything they wish. Including most likely changing the plan.

I've recently discovered an excellent free open-source CAM program, which means I haven't forgotten the CNC option and I want to make sure it is included in the plug track options going forward:

https://docs.grid.space/projects/kiri-moto

It is nominally browser-based, but can be installed as a normal Windows executable if preferred:

https://github.com/GridSpace/grid-apps/releases/download/4.0.17/KiriMoto-win-x64.exe

It's also an open-source FDM slicer, so we might be able to integrate bits of it into Templot5, specifically to create accurate sockets, connector clips, and a clean top surface, with a much more rapid rough fill for the remainder which gets lost in the ballast. Just maybe, some random scratching with a lower temperature nozzle might produce a more "grain"-like textured top surface. But generating G-code is a whole separate project and I can't begin looking at it yet.

This is the Windows executable version:

Martin.

 

[Richardb]

Hi Martin,

I'm new to Templot and learning as I go along. I wanted to say that the Plug track feature is exactly what I’ve been looking for—a prototypical-looking track in OO-I that doesn’t require hunting down tools and gauges from various societies and vendors. I’m also incredibly grateful that you've open-sourced your lifetime of work—thank you!

Now, the idea of a ready-made plan that’s ready to go is really appealing, especially for beginners like me. It would remove a lot of the indecision at the start while still offering a prototypical plan that looks realistic. From my beginner's perspective, many layouts tend to look quite similar—not the modeller's fault, of course—but there's nothing more exciting than a layout with realistic-looking track. This would allow me to focus on honing the skills needed to craft rail, build turnouts, and interesting formations, rather than learning Templot from the ground up or indeed butchering rtr track and turnouts.

Nothing wrong with learning Templot by the way, it's a very capable tool, and as I said before, I’m happy and grateful it’s open source.

P.S. The distinction between templates and bricks makes perfect sense to me!

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Richardb

Hi Richard,

Welcome to Templot Club.

Glad you like what we are doing. Do you have 3D printers? It's all new to most of us too.

Any questions, just ask.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Richardb]

Hi Martin,

No not yet, I also wargame so hoping to get a resin and fdm printer with decent resolution which will meet the needs of both hobbies nicely

 

[James Walters]

@Steve_Cornford @Hayfield @James Walters @Paul Boyd

It dawned on me recently that plug track is attracting a new group of users to Templot -- modellers with a 3D printer who would like to try printing track but are put off by the need to learn to use Templot first. This turns on its head my original thought that it would be only for experienced Templot users with a good knowledge of prototype track.

I wondered if a way forward might be to post a full set of mesh-fixed STL files for a complete small layout. All the timbering bricks, all the chairs, all the filing jigs. Just print them all out, buy some rail and a nice new sharp file, and off you go. Even if you have never built track before. With no need to switch Templot on if you don't want to, although it would make sense to print out the BOX file for the paper templates.

I left the idea on the walk where I thought of it, until this morning the latest issue of the Railway Modeller dropped onto my screen (September 2024).

An attractive RM issue, reminiscent of the old days. Scale drawings, and two articles on locomotive building -- an etched kit in 7mm and in N gauge scratch building (well 3D printing) a new body for a commercial loco chassis.

And on page 722 is Norton Vale, based on CJF's Plan 47s in "60 Plans for Small Railways" from the 1960s. An old-style layout from those days -- a busy branch-line terminus compressed onto not much more than a bookshelf, 13ft x 1ft-6in. Admittedly now stretched a bit to 18ft. Looking at the photos reminded me of so many such layouts from the past -- all fun to build and operate with limited stock, and achievable.

I can't post the plan or pictures for copyright reasons -- you will have to go out and buy a copy, or subscribe to the digital version.

So how about it for the 47S Project? A full set of STL files ready to download and 3D print? The updated plan does include a short double-slip, which is not yet possible in plug track. But that might be replaced in the short term with a Barry slip -- which is.

Is this another daft idea born out of a boiled egg, or might there be something in it?

Martin.

Hi Martin,
I'm so sorry to have been absent on here recently. I finally found some time to catch-up (at 2.15 am), and in the few weeks since I last spent any real time 'at the club', the world seems to have moved on. Templot5 is exciting - I don't understand it but well done to all involved.
Anyway, having just read this post, and the entire thread, I would like to endorse this as an excellent idea.
I used to read RM avidly as a youngster and always enjoyed the 'Plan of the Month' feature the most. This has 'PotM' written all over it, and would be an excellent starting point (pun intended) for someone who wanted to get into Plug Track but who frankly does not care for the PWI rules and practices. I think the initiative would be especially beneficial for junior modellers and clubs. RTR track is too expensive, and let's face it not very interesting in an of itself. Making one's own track, which goes wherever the imagination wants it too is far more appealing.
As a teacher, I can't think of an academic discipline in school which exercises the noggin in quite the way Templot does. Yet youngsters enjoy using technology, and are quick to pick it up.
Having an proven starting point through which the 3d printing technology can be understood first, would be an excellent gateway to getting to grips with the Templot 3d tools more generally.
There's a significant finescale anniversary coming up, wouldn't it be nice if some of the Cressex School children came along to Scaleforum '26 and built a 47S Project from a kit of parts as part of the exhibition? Just a thought...


James

 

[KHC1]

I have been thinking about a possible plan as an alternative to a CJF version. I was wondering about Devils Dyke. The plan would include straight and curve track. Also a crossover and turnouts on a curve. A headshunt that could be extended into an engine shed using rule 1. I may even do it for myself especially as I have the design of the signal box already. The station would be renamed Saddlescombe top.

Keith

 

[James Walters]

Hi Martin,
Are you thinking about physically building the 47S project?

If so, I'd happily laser-cut you a kit of baseboard parts to get you started.
I'm sure others would chip-in with drawing-up some of the buildings etc. The whole lot could be added to downloadable files.
It could be a wonderful collaborative project.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Are you thinking about physically building the 47S project?

@James Walters

Hi James,

It has crossed my mind. I do have a space where it would just about fit. And the files would need to be physically test-printed before being posted.

But all my modelling time is currently needed for Templot. Building a layout takes more than 5 minutes. It's more 20 years since I last did any layout building:

https://85a.uk/GNRI/adavoyle.htm

It would also need some 00 RTR rolling stock -- not a lot, the CJF plans were designed in the days when most folks had very limited stock. Hence the short platforms and limited hidden siding(s). Suggestions of what I might get welcome -- it's impossible to keep up with what's currently available. Say 1950s/60s. It does seem to me that DCC sound goes a long way to make up for the limitations of a minimum-space layout.

Many thanks for the offer of the baseboard parts. If several folks take up the idea, you might be able to sell them? I suspect it would need something shorter than 13ft for the idea to really take off.

Perhaps better suited as a project for a local club?

cheers,

Martin.

 

[James Walters]

You needn't build an entire layout, just some timbering bricks on boards would be sufficient to prove the concept, and if you're test printing anyway.....

Do you have a particular region in mind, I'm guessing BR(WR) - just thinking about rolling stock.

Btw, the Adavoyle page is quite stunning. I'd have enjoyed the opportunity to see it in the flesh. Is the layout still going?

Best,

James

 

[Martin Wynne]

Btw, the Adavoyle page is quite stunning. I'd have enjoyed the opportunity to see it in the flesh. Is the layout still going?

@James Walters

Thanks James.

Yes, the layout is now in the care of the South Dublin Model Railway Club:

http://sdmrc.ie/2021/10/18/adavoyle-update/

I remember building that turntable well. The baseboards in that area used hardboard-faced interior doors, with a cardboard web core. The strength relied on the integrity of the two skins. I remember drilling and gluing in place a ring of ramin dowels linking the top and bottom skins, before cutting out the hole inside the ring. You can just see the dowels in one of the photos.

The chaired track was made by moulding chairs in situ around the plywood rivets. Using a hot-melt glue gun, injecting into brass mould tools which I made on the spark eroder. The chair electrodes were made by pantograph-milling from a full-size chair.

I was recently contacted about Tony Miles's loco building methods. Here is my reply.

---

Tony was a skilled modeller. Two of his engines had crank axles and moving inside valve gear, one of which won a Gold Medal at a "Model Engineer" exhibition, unusual for a 4mm/ft model.

His writings were in Railway Modeller magazine. There was a seminal series of articles about his locomotive building methods with the late David Goodwin, starting in January 1982.

Fortunately the entire Railway Modeller archive back to 1949 is available to subscribers on the Peco web site. Searching for "Adavoyle" found 42 results:

https://reader.exacteditions.com/magazines/21465/search?q=Adavoyle

Also articles about the original Adavoyle layout at Merseyside Model Railway Society (RM May 1980), and the later Adavoyle Junction layout which he built with a group of friends at his home in Ludlow. There are some pictures on my web site at:

https://85a.uk/GNRI/adavoyle.htm

That layout is now in the care of the South Dublin Model Railway Club:

http://sdmrc.ie/2021/10/18/adavoyle-update/

The layout was also heavily featured in an issue of Model Railways magazine, although I don't have the issue details to hand.

I shouldn't be calling them "layouts". Tony disliked the term, and always called them "railways".

---

cheers,

Martin.

 

[James Walters]

Amazing. I had no idea that a 4mm model could (or had ever) won a gold medal at the Model Engineer Exhibition. That is outstanding.

Nice to see the railway is still in service and being cared for.

 

[Phil O]

I remember seeing Adavoyle, but I can't remember when or where. I thought it was amazing, because of the dual gauge track in places, not often seen in model form.

 

[Martin Wynne]

I remember seeing Adavoyle, but I can't remember when or where. I thought it was amazing, because of the dual gauge track in places, not often seen in model form.

@Phil O @James Walters @David Sutton

Hi Phil,

It was on the exhibition circuit for over 20 years, with two outings most years. Including Warley, Scaleforum North and South, ExpoEM, Bristol.

First outing while still under construction was at Scaleforum 1986 at the City University, London.

A couple of pictures of the layout under construction in 1985:

For point motors we used P.O. relays, all mounted on the surface and hidden under buildings and structures. This row operated the junction pointwork. For some reason I left my lens cap in the picture.

It was finally retired and went to its new home in Dublin in 2009:

In 2019 the Dublin club held a special open day to celebrate 10 years of hosting Adavoyle Junction. It's now 15 years in Ireland, and the layout is over 40 years old.

Here's an article about the Dublin club from 2019 with a description of Adavoyle Junction (scroll about half way down):

https://dublininquirer.com/2019/11/06/in-knocklyon-an-oasis-for-model-railway-lovers/

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Paul Boyd]

I remember seeing Adavoyle, but I can't remember when or where. I thought it was amazing, because of the dual gauge track in places, not often seen in model form.

Hi Phil,

I was lucky enough to see it at Scaleforum in 2006. I've posted the not-brilliant photos here before, otherwise the first one (of just four) is on my Flickr page here - use the arrow on the right to go to the next one. (I use a different name on Flickr, but it's still me!).

I'm not sure why I took so few photos - I'd been using digital cameras for long enough by then to know that I didn't have to worry about how much film I had left!

Cheers,
Paulo

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Paul Boyd

Thanks Paul,

For Scaleforum that year it was featured in the August 2006 issue of BRM. I found this photo of the article on the web:

Click it twice to see it better.

I do have a copy, when I have found it I will post a proper scan.

Martin.

 

[Paul Boyd]

His writings were in Railway Modeller magazine. There was a seminal series of articles about his locomotive building methods with the late David Goodwin, starting in January 1982.

Fortunately the entire Railway Modeller archive back to 1949 is available to subscribers on the Peco web site. Searching for "Adavoyle" found 42 results:

Hi Martin,

Those loco building articles were another huge inspiration to me, although at the time the methods were beyond my abilities and available tools. Possibly why I ended up following Iain Rice who built stuff with a lump hammer and a big file - I could relate to that!

My personal Railway Modeller archive goes back to 1981 when I started buying it - I still have every copy, still go back to old issues and still buy it. I was most disappointed when RM went digital with a subscription that it wasn't possible to download copies and that access only lasted during the subscription period. I was hoping I could free up space in my flat - 43 years of RM takes up a lot of space!

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Phil O]

Martin,

It was either ExpoEM or Bristol. Did it ever go to the Glades?

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Phil O

Hi Phil,

Glades? Where is that?

Martin.

 

[Phil O]

Hi Martin,

The Glades, used to be in Kiddy. I helped out on my friends layout there back in the late 80s or early 90s, the show was organised by the Wyre Forest club. It was on the left as you go around the ring road between Comberton Hill and the Birmingham Road.

I was also a visitor to the show, a couple of times.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Martin,

The Glades, used to be in Kiddy. I helped out on my friends layout there back in the late 80s or early 90s, the show was organised by the Wyre Forest club. It was on the left as you go around the ring road between Comberton Hill and the Birmingham Road.

I was also a visitor to the show, a couple of times.

@Phil O

Hi Phil,

I remember now. Closed 2016 and demolished. Now looks like this:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/EuTMEBhkhZqwVMt3A

I don't recall Adavoyle being there, @David Sutton would know.

Kidderminster now has a new leisure centre, on the Silverwoods development (site of the former sugar factory):

https://maps.app.goo.gl/CWeBXTsjLE2pkzqu6

cheers,

Martin.

 

[David Sutton]

Yes, March 1997.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Yes, March 1997.


View attachment 10595

@David Sutton

Many thanks David. I don't recall ever seeing that list before. Or the Kidderminster show.

The first 2 on the list were with Old Adavoyle. There is one missing -- we took Old Adavoyle to Holmfield House Wakefield in I think 1984. It may have been for ExpoEM North. I remember because we had to dismantle the work we had done on the Adavoyle Junction baseboards and re-erect Old Adavoyle for show preparations. Tony announced that I was responsible for the electrics (which were falling to bits) despite my never having had any previous knowledge of the layout. Although I do remember seeing it at a show in Birmingham about 5 years previously. It featured in the May 1980 RM -- the issue which came out in September because of a strike at the printers.

I'm sure there was a trip to Bristol, but it's not listed?

For those wondering about the Nash International Model Railway Show in 1998 -- it took place here:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/QAvhuo1eNQfBKU936

cheers,

Martin.

 

[David Sutton]

The list was compiled by me from memory after the railway had been taken to Ireland, so everything on it definitely took place, but it I guessed that a couple of shows would have slipped from mind. It seems a bit academic to revise it at this distance in time but I am sure that you are right.
Best wishes, David.