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    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.
  • The Plug Track functions are experimental and still being developed.

    For an updated overview of this project see this topic.   For some practical modelling aspects of using Plug Track see Building 3D Track.

    The assumption is that you have your own machines on which to experiment, or helpful friends with machines. Please do not send Templot files to commercial laser cutting or 3D printing firms while this project is still experimental, because the results are unpredictable and possibly wasteful.

    Some pages of this and other topics include contributions from members who are creating and posting their own CAD designs for 3D printing and laser-cutting. Do not confuse them with Templot's own exported CAD files. All files derived from Templot are © Martin Wynne.

Tynemouth Station from NLS maps

Quick reply >

Mike-Venus

Member
Location
United Kingdom
Hello Everyone,

I am new to Templot and I am struggling with particular map I want. I am interested in Tynemouth Station in the North East of England. There are a number of maps for this through the OS in different years.
The series that is of interest to me is OS 1:500/1:528 Towns, 1880s-1890s. This map shows all track work with the canopies removed which what I want to see. When the NLS loads into it shows one tile missing. Somehow I managed to obatain that tile and to view the station as I wanted.
Somehow I failed to save this. This is where my problem actually starts.
I have gone back into the NLS but after I do everything to get the map. It will not load the correct one. It loads a map where the canpies cover the track which is not what i want.

Is anybody able to tell me what I am doing wrong?

Any help greatly appreciated

Mike
 
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message ref: 6565
@Mike-Venus

Hi Mike,

Welcome to Templot Club. :)

The problem is that on some of the latest map additions to the NLS web site they are using a different method of displaying the map tiles, which Templot cannot load. I'm fearful that if they roll this out across all of their maps the very useful tiled maps function will cease to work. We have already lost the screenshot maps function because Microsoft removed the embedded IE web browser component from the latest versions of Windows.

It is still possible to get all the maps into Templot, but we might lose the option to have them automatically scaled and extendable at will. Nothing stays the same for 5 minutes nowadays. The NLS web site is a constantly changing system and it is difficult to keep up with it.

To get the map you want:

1. get the available tiled map of the area required, even if it is not the one you want.

2. make a screenshot, or several screenshots, from your browser of the map area(s) you do want.

3. import it manually into Templot as a picture shape, and temporarily set it to display transparently.

4. drag it over the tiled map and re-scale it manually to match the underlying tiled map.

5. delete the unwanted tiled map.

6. change it back from transparent to solid.

This method also works where NLS have only the scanned single sheets at the required date available, and not a georeferenced slippy map.

I can make a video showing this method if you wish, or we can demonstrate it in the next Zoom meeting.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 6568
@Mike-Venus

Hi Mike,

To illustrate that, here it is in Templot:

tynemouth_maps.png



On the left is the NLS Tynemouth 25" georeferenced tiled map loaded by Templot and automatically scaled (to 4mm/ft scale EM). You didn't state your model scale (no-one ever does when asking for help!).

On the right is the older NLS 1:500 town plan, grabbed as a full-screen screenshot from my browser (Firefox). I have imported it as a picture shape, but it is not yet scaled to the correct 4mm/ft size.

To achieve that, I have temporarily made it transparent, and I am dragging it over the tiled map. I shall then re-size (scale) it until it is an exact match over the tiled map. There are several buttons and options in Templot to make that quite easy.

When the two maps match exactly I shall delete the tiled map, and revert the top one to solid instead of transparent.

I am new to Templot and I am struggling with particular map

Always the same -- someone arrives new to Templot and immediately wants to dive into something tricky!

It is so much easier if you learn the basics of Templot first. :)

Maps are part of the background shapes, in particular the picture shapes, and there are lots of functions to handle them, save them, etc., and align track templates over them.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 6570
Hi Mike,

I will have a go for you, what scale are you modelling in?
Hi Phil,

I am using FS160 so that I can use Finetrax and I also have a need to build a junction which does not conform to what is available. I need to work out a way to modify Finetrax or ask Wayne Kinney if he produce it for me.

There are two reasons for wanting to use the particular maps. Clarity is fantastic compared to the later maps produced. It is like they are photocopies of the original with mods or changes added. The second is the canopies as mentioned.

Martin Wynne also replied, so I would just like to say this.

1) I have digital copies of both parts of the station with the clarity I want.
2) I have also managed to join these two maps together so I have one complete map although there is a very slight difference in scale.

May be these could be imported into Templot, but that is something I definitely don't know how to do.

I am attaching the files, the 2 separate and the combined. May be you have ideas

Regards
Mike
 

Attachments

  • OST_(247)_001 (1).jpg
    10.6 MB · Views: 63
  • Tynemouth_Station.jpg
    Tynemouth_Station.jpg
    236.7 KB · Views: 61
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message ref: 6571
@Mike-Venus

Hi Mike,

To illustrate that, here it is in Templot:

View attachment 5658


On the left is the NLS Tynemouth 25" georeferenced tiled map loaded by Templot and automatically scaled (to 4mm/ft scale EM). You didn't state your model scale (no-one ever does when asking for help!).

On the right is the older NLS 1:500 town plan, grabbed as a full-screen screenshot from my browser (Firefox). I have imported it as a picture shape, but it is not yet scaled to the correct 4mm/ft size.

To achieve that, I have temporarily made it transparent, and I am dragging it over the tiled map. I shall then re-size (scale) it until it is an exact match over the tiled map. There are several buttons and options in Templot to make that quite easy.

When the two maps match exactly I shall delete the tiled map, and revert the top one to solid instead of transparent.



Always the same -- someone arrives new to Templot and immediately wants to dive into something tricky!

It is so much easier if you learn the basics of Templot first. :)

Maps are part of the background shapes, in particular the picture shapes, and there are lots of functions to handle them, save them, etc., and align track templates over them.

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin,

What you have done is very much appreciated.
I did however follow a Tutorial for loading maps into Templot which worked very well for me as I could pause at the appropriate position and then copy what was shown.
Just have not been able to get the drawing in that I want.
The scale I am using is FS160 so that I can use Finetrax.

I will have a go with what you suggest.

Regards
Mike
 
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Mike,

You totally lost me with FS 160, but a quick Google, tells me that it's one of the 2mm scales. I will have a look and see what I can do later.
 
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message ref: 6573
May be these could be imported into Templot, but that is something I definitely don't know how to do.

I am attaching the files, the 2 separate and the combined.
@Mike-Venus

Hi Mike,

You could use those, but as they have been rotated you would need to rotate them back in order to scale them easily.

The same maps are available on the NLS web site, and I think it would be easier to use screenshots of those. Once correctly scaled the map can be rotated (twisted) if it would make track planning easier.

Here I have aligned the1896 1:500 map over the 25" map, and the extra detail is very evident. It is such a shame that such maps are not available for later dates. Nowadays the OS maps are all digital and constantly updated, so in 100 years time getting an accurate map of today's world will be almost impossible or extremely expensive.

tynemouth_maps1.png


The slight discrepancies are due to differences in the map projection for georeferencing. This is 4mm/ft scale, so I need to re-scale it to 1:160 scale.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 6574
@Mike-Venus

Hi Mike,

You could use those, but as they have been rotated you would need to rotate them back in order to scale them easily.

The same maps are available on the NLS web site, and I think it would be easier to use screenshots of those. Once correctly scaled the map can be rotated (twisted) if it would make track planning easier.

Here I have aligned the1896 1:500 map over the 25" map, and the extra detail is very evident. It is such a shame that such maps are not available for later dates. Nowadays the OS maps are all digital and constantly updated, so in 100 years time getting an accurate map of today's world will be almost impossible or extremely expensive.

View attachment 5665

The slight discrepancies are due to differences in the map projection for georeferencing. This is 4mm/ft scale, so I need to re-scale it to 1:160 scale.

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin,

I am not the most computer literate person in the world. Struggled all afternoon with this. However it has eventually clicked with me. Whether I remember is another matter.
I have my map in as a picture and I am happy that I have shifted it to the correct position and scaled it correctly.
I deleted the map where the clarity of the image was not that good. I have managed to put a piece of track on the map. (A simple curve)
I apologize for asking a question but Templot tells me I am out of memory and failed to save my efforts. What did I do wrong, or could anybody answer that.

Regards

Mike
 
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message ref: 6582
Could you set the gauge/scale, edit the name of the box, save the box file (so that we have a starting point)
Then repeat your map processing and save the background shapes(so that we now have a restore point co sisting of the box file & shape file)
Upload both to here so that we could try repeating the addition of a simple curve.
What is the operating system & version, how much memory does it have?
 
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message ref: 6583
Sorry to hear you are having a problem.
I have had second thoughts. .
Was there rotation involved?
If so , assemble your maps etc, but before rotating, save .
If that worked ok, perform the rotate and the try saving. If that fails then it is the rotating within Temit that is causing issue.
If so you need to perform the rotation outside of Templot.
Let us know how you get on, and someone on here might be available to help, however I'm out for the day now so will not be available.
Steve
 
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Mike,

You totally lost me with FS 160, but a quick Google, tells me that it's one of the 2mm scales. I will have a look and see what I can do later.
@Phil O

Hi Phil,

You did not need Google. :)

It is in Templot:

fs1601.png


cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 6585
@Mike-Venus

Hi Mike,

One of the images you posted yesterday is a massive 12405 x 8496 pixels. If you used it in a picture shape, I suspect the XML engine which Templot uses for the BGS3 files might have choked on it when saving. Generally it is better to break such very large images into a few smaller picture shapes.

I will do your Tynemouth map for you and post it here. But first, please confirm that you want it scaled at 1:160 and not the more usual UK N Gauge (1:148) or 2mm/ft (1:152.4).

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 6586
Could you set the gauge/scale, edit the name of the box, save the box file (so that we have a starting point)
Then repeat your map processing and save the background shapes(so that we now have a restore point co sisting of the box file & shape file)
Upload both to here so that we could try repeating the addition of a simple curve.
What is the operating system & version, how much memory does it have?
Hi Steve,
Sorry to hear you are having a problem.
I have had second thoughts. .
Was there rotation involved?
If so , assemble your maps etc, but before rotating, save .
If that worked ok, perform the rotate and the try saving. If that fails then it is the rotating within Temit that is causing issue.
If so you need to perform the rotation outside of Templot.
Let us know how you get on, and someone on here might be available to help, however I'm out for the day now so will not be available.
Steve
Hi Steve,

Thanks for replying. While I had some fu learning this, and also finding out how clever the concept is. It was also frustrating at the end to lose what I had finally got, the quality in the position I wanted. I will post the the map I used although I think this forum's settings told me the file is too big!
Whar I would like to understand is why Templot tells me the memory is full. I have a Dell Inspiron with 700GB spare. So I am assuming that I Templot is trying to put my effort into a place inside itself own allocated area.
So question is, how do I get around that?

Can I store into my documents?
I think I am missing the how to step, which may be is more obvious with the like of word, excel etc!
Hopefully you can give me direction or where I might find a specific tutorial that may cover it.

Regards

Mike
 
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message ref: 6587
@Mike-Venus

Hi Mike,

One of the images you posted yesterday is a massive 12405 x 8496 pixels. If you used it in a picture shape, I suspect the XML engine which Templot uses for the BGS3 files might have choked on it when saving. Generally it is better to break such very large images into a few smaller picture shapes.

I will do your Tynemouth map for you and post it here. But first, please confirm that you want it scaled at 1:160 and not the more usual UK N Gauge (1:148).

cheers,

Martin.
This is very much appreciated Martin.
But they may be two complication, there are two maps required for the station. What I will do is crop them when i get home from work. I could not get both maps from the NLS.
The 1st is from the NLS. The 2nd is from the British Libary as believe it or not, that is the only missing map of Tynemouth with the NLS, and a one that I needed.
As the maps came from different Library’s they are very slightly different in scale. Will that be OK with you Martin.
I Will confirm later today the scale.

Regards
Mike
 
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message ref: 6588
@Mike-Venus

Hi Mike,

I noticed that the northern sheet on the NLS is too early and pre-dates the construction of the railway.

I can use your British Library scan in its place. i notice however that it is scanned to a poorer quality than the NLS scans.

I'm happy to do your map for you and post the files here.

What I can't do however is explain the process, or at least not right now. I have been explaining and re-explaining Templot over and over again for more than 20 years and I am exhausted by it. I never will get the 3D plug track project finished if I don't stop the ever-lasting explaining.

To align two maps to the same angle, use the marker-line: Fixed and marker-line: Twist functions. To scale two maps to match, move the notch to a prominent location on one of them. Lock the scaling to the notch, set the other one transparent and scale it over the first one until it matches.

If you search the Templot Club archive you should be able to find more about this. Here for example:

https://85a.uk/templot/archive/topics/topic_1199.php#p7351


notch_shapes_scaling.png


cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 6589
This is very much appreciated Martin.
But they may be two complication, there are two maps required for the station. What I will do is crop them when i get home from work. I could not get both maps from the NLS.
The 1st is from the NLS. The 2nd is from the British Libary as believe it or not, that is the only missing map of Tynemouth with the NLS, and a one that I needed.
As the maps came from different Library’s they are very slightly different in scale. Will that be OK with you Martin.
I Will confirm later today the scale.

Regards
Mike
Hi Martin,

I think it is N gauge, please see the statement on the drawing for a double slip it say N gauge 9mm by Finetrax, that's the track I will use in most places. I understand I can modify a lot of these to fit what I want to achieve, but there is some I will have to make, especially the curved junction with the 3 crossovers.
Regards

Mike
 

Attachments

  • N Gauge_1in8_Double Slip_template.pdf
    3 MB · Views: 69
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message ref: 6590
@Mike-Venus

Hi Mike,

For N gauge 9mm gauge there are 3 different scales in use:

1:160 is an exact scale from the prototype down to 9mm gauge. This scale is used by most American and European N gauge models.

1:152.4 is a scale of 2mm/ft. It is used by the 2mm Scale Association. This scales the prototype down to 9.42mm track gauge, which is the track gauge the Association mostly uses.

1:148 is the scale to which a lot of UK N Gauge models are made. I do not know where that scale comes from or what it is intended to represent. Scaling the prototype at 1:148 would produce a track gauge of 9.7mm, so using 9mm gauge for such models is under-scale.

The template which you posted says 9mm gauge, 2mm/ft scale.

That means the turnout and crossing template lengths have been scaled a 1:160 for 9mm gauge, but the timber sizes and spacings have been scaled at 1:152.4. This is similar to what happens in 00 gauge, 2 different scales are used on the templates.

You need to decide which of these 3 different ratios to use to scale the map. You will get more of the map into your model space at 1:160 . However if you will be using 1:148 models, they will be larger than the 1:160 map. For example you won't get the proper number of coaches in a platform, or you might find that there is insufficient running clearance for them on double-track.

If you are modelling Tynemouth in pre-grouping days, it is likely that you will be scratch-building most of your rolling stock rather than buying N gauge models. In which case I would suggest joining the 2mm Scale Association and building your models to 2mm/ft scale, 1:152.4 , and scaling the map to that size:

http://www.2mm.org.uk

You might also decide to build your track to 9.42mm gauge rather than 9mm, but that decision doesn't affect the map scale.

If you let me know which of the 3 scales 1:160 , 1:152.4 , 1:148 you want the map scaled to, I will get on with it. In practice, once the map is scaled to one of them, and you know which it is, it would be easy to re-scale it to one of the others.

cheers,

Martin.

p.s. It has taken me the best part of an hour to prepare and type this reply. It illustrates why I just can't go on doing all this endless explaining. The information above should be well-known in the hobby, and I can't understand why nowadays I spend so much time explaining such basics. It didn't happen in the early days of Templot 20 years ago, when everyone seemed to know what they were doing and what they wanted.
 
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message ref: 6591
Hi Martin,

Please hold fire. I will talk to John Jones who is going to help me build some turnouts, and is much more knowledgeable than myself.

Regards

Mike
 
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message ref: 6592
Hi Martin,
I have just got a reply from Wayne Kinney of Finetrax and he tells me it should be 1:148.

Regards

Michael
 
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message ref: 6599
Hi Martin,
I have just got a reply from Wayne Kinney of Finetrax and he tells me it should be 1:148.

Regards

Michael

@Mike-Venus

OK Mike.

That doesn't match his template which is labelled 2mm/ft (1:152.4) but I long ago gave up trying to make sense of the N Gauge standards.

I will scale the map for 1:148

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 6600
@Mike-Venus

Hi Mike,

Here is your 1896 Tynemouth map. :)

The right-hand part from the British Library is a much lower-quality scan.

tynemouth_1.png


tynemouth_2.png



I tried aligning an N gauge template over it. A couple of points to note:

1. at 1:148 scale the track gauge should be 9.7mm. When aligning 9mm gauge templates over it you will see that the rails are inside the rail lines on the map.

2. this is a pre-grouping map, and as usual the switches look extremely short to modern eyes. For this turnout I needed a 9ft switch with 1:7.5 crossing angle. That's not a size combination you would see nowadays outside of a goods yard. If your layout is representing a later date I would suggest using a B-7.5 instead to look right. If using a Finetrax kit, a B-7 would be a close fit.

The BGS3 file is linked here. Right-click on this link and click Save Target As... or Save Link As...

https://85a.uk/templot/bgs3/tynemouth_50inch_148scale.bgs3

It is too large at 73MB to be posted as an attachment.

I split the map into 3 separate picture shapes, but they are still very large and the file will be slow to load into Templot.

(For Templot old-timers -- this would have been so much better in the old BGS/SK81 format. Sharper images and loading a lot faster. I changed it to a single file because I got so much grief about it. :( )

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 6602
@Mike-Venus

Hi Mike,

Here is your 1896 Tynemouth map. :)

The right-hand part from the British Library is a much lower-quality scan.

View attachment 5682

View attachment 5681


I tried aligning an N gauge template over it. A couple of points to note:

1. at 1:148 scale the track gauge should be 9.7mm. When aligning 9mm gauge templates over it you will see that the rails are inside the rail lines on the map.

2. this is a pre-grouping map, and as usual the switches look extremely short to modern eyes. For this turnout I needed a 9ft switch with 1:7.5 crossing angle. That's not a size combination you would see nowadays outside of a goods yard. If your layout is representing a later date I would suggest using a B-7.5 instead to look right. If using a Finetrax kit, a B-7 would be a close fit.

The BGS3 file is linked here. Right-click on this link and click Save Target As... or Save Link As...

https://85a.uk/templot/bgs3/tynemouth_50inch_148scale.bgs3

It is too large at 73MB to be posted as an attachment.

I split the map into 3 separate picture shapes, but they are still very large and the file will be slow to load into Templot.

(For Templot old-timers -- this would have been so much better in the old BGS/SK81 format. Sharper images and loading a lot faster. I changed it to a single file because I got so much grief about it. :( )

cheers,

Martin.
Good Morning Martin,

Thank you for this. I will only get to see this later tonight when I get home from work, which will be late.
I look forward to loading this up and saving it safely in my documents before doing anything else. I now look forward to Monday when my lovely wife will be at work and i can have the PC to myself and practice placing track and working everything out on your system.

Many thanks for your effort, support and guidance.

Regards
Michael
 
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message ref: 6603
Hi Martin,

What you have done is very much appreciated.
I did however follow a Tutorial for loading maps into Templot which worked very well for me as I could pause at the appropriate position and then copy what was shown.
Just have not been able to get the drawing in that I want.
The scale I am using is FS160 so that I can use Finetrax.

I will have a go with what you suggest.

Regards
Mike
Hello Mike,
I am in a similar boat to you. I have followed Templot for many, many years and failed to come to terms with it but I've decided to have a concerted go at mastering it. So, I am effectively new to it, I'm looking at a station a little to the west of yours and quite a bit bigger. You mentioned a tutorial for loading maps. Can you give me a pointer to where the tutorial is, please?
Bob
 
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message ref: 7743
Hello Mike,
I am in a similar boat to you. I have followed Templot for many, many years and failed to come to terms with it but I've decided to have a concerted go at mastering it. So, I am effectively new to it, I'm looking at a station a little to the west of yours and quite a bit bigger. You mentioned a tutorial for loading maps. Can you give me a pointer to where the tutorial is, please?
Bob
@Central Station

Hi Bob,

Welcome to Templot Club. :)

There is a video tutorial on loading maps at:

https://85a.uk/templot/companion/get_map_from_the_web.php

Ask again if you need more.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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message ref: 7744
Thanks Martin.
I've found the videos and you are now a constant companion.
After many, many years of struggle, because of my own limitations, I think it's now starting to sink in. Constant repetition, back and forwards to the videos, is doing the trick.
I still have some issues and no doubt there will still be questions but your work will prove invaluable.

I'm starting with something which should be relatively simple but I'm struggling.
I'm trying to produce a template of a scissor crossing from a map of Central Station. C9 points and diamond on a straight road but I can't for the life of my work out how to produce the diamond.

Is there a video that might help or do you have any advice?

Thanks,

Bob
 
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message ref: 7818
@Central Station @Frank

Hi Bob,

Scissors crossovers seem to be the flavour of the month. :)

See these recent topics:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/scissors-crossover-alignment-problem.727/

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/scissors-crossing-conflict.724/

Here is a video recording of a Zoom meeting with Terry Downes covering the subject:

SCRUFF ZOOM 20th MARCH 2023

I have promised to make a proper tutorial video on the subject, and you have nudged my memory about it. Thanks. I will do it soon.

cheers,

Martin.
 
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Thanks Martin,
The links were and will be very useful but still a challenge for a new starter. I will persevere.
Back to the maps issue, which is where I came in, I was wondering if you could help on another couple of issues:
- I am only able to download maps into background from the OS 25 inch range. I realise from your video that these are the only source for rural areas but I'm trying to access Newcastle Central Station. Should I be able to access more detailed maps?
- Once I am finished a session, should I be able to save the map as a background or do I need to download for each session?

I'll continue with my attempts at a scissor crossover but if your video on the subject is a near future plan, maybe I should wait and jump on that band wagon.

Thanks,

Bob
 
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message ref: 7834
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