UK's PSTN will be kaput by 2025

[AndyB]

As in: Public Switched Telephone Network

https://www.globe2.net/it-news/the-openreach-pstn-withdrawal/

It won't affect us as we are in the US and we already use VoIP (Voice over Internet Protocol) from our cable provider for land-line phone calls but that has some issues. We lose our "land-line" during a power outage (typically we get a few outages every year). Fortunately we have mobile phones that work at our rural location although that was not always the case.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Andy,

Thanks. Yes, I mentioned this in a topic on RMweb a few days ago, which has generated some interest:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/i...pe-first-look/&do=findComment&comment=4315794

It seems to have crept up on folks unawares, although BT originally announced it 3 years ago.

Still 4 years to go, and a lot can happen in that time, as we have discovered recently.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[AndyB]

I posted a link to this thread in RMweb

 

[AndyB]

For what it's worth the DTMF (dual tone multi frequency) hard-wired and wireless phones that we had long before we had VoIP simply plug into a phone jack on the modem supplied by our cable company. The modem digitizes and packetizes the dial tones and audio (voice) and routes them to the phone network. I believe the audio packets are prioritized to minimize latency. It all seems to work quite well.

I imagine the UK is adopting a similar system but I could be entirely wrong. After all, the UK is almost the only place on the planet that adopted the ring mains

 

[Martin Wynne]

For what it's worth the DTMF (dual tone multi frequency) hard-wired and wireless phones that we had long before we had VoIP simply plug into a phone jack on the modem supplied by our cable company. The modem digitizes and packetizes the dial tones and audio (voice) and routes them to the phone network. I believe the audio packets are prioritized to minimize latency. It all seems to work quite well.

Hi Andy,

Having this very day received a new router from my internet service provider, it does indeed have a couple of sockets labelled FON/DECT which are intended for phones. I believe DECT phones are what we normally call wireless/cordless phones (as distinct from mobile phones/smartphones). But if they are wireless, why do they need a socket?

However, the sockets do not match the standard BT landline phone socket, and I do not recognise them. So there is no way our existing landline phones will plug into them.

No doubt all will become clear in due course. Usually by filling landfill with redundant electronics and buying new yet again.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

However, the sockets do not match the standard BT landline phone socket, and I do not recognise them. So there is no way our existing landline phones will plug into them.

Or maybe it does. Lurking in the bottom of the box I have found an adaptor clearly marked 411 (?), which does fit one of the FON sockets and accepts a standard BT landline phone plug. So maybe our existing phones will plug directly to the router (or via a BT extension cable). I think Google is calling me.

Martin.

 

[AndyB]

I think wireless phones need a base station wired to the network, at least the system we have does. It's a bit sad because the builder wired phone jacks into every room in the house but now we only need two. One for the wireless base station and another for a conventional DTMF phone and it is pretty much redundant. I installed Ethernet cable all over the house too. It's also redundant

 

[Martin Wynne]

Google says:

The socket I didn't recognise is called a TAE socket. It's the German version of the standard UK BT analogue phone socket:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAE_connector

The other analogue phone socket is a common RJ11 for which BT adaptors are readily available:

https://boxed2me.co.uk/product/newlink-rj11-m-to-bt-f-adapter-30056

As far as I can tell only one of those two connectors can be used at any given time:

It also has a built in base station for 6 cordless phones. And a USB socket for network printers and external drives.

Given that my internet provider is required to provide only the ADSL modem, LAN, and Wifi access point, this extra phone stuff is very welcome. Unfortunately at present I have no means to make use of it, but I'm looking.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[AndyB]

I get the impression BT would like to lock you in to their "solution". In the US the modem, the router/wireless router, and the cordless phone base station would all be separate units that you can buy from multiple vendors. That lets you upgrade any feature independently and you don't have to pay monthly rental fees.

 

[Martin Wynne]

I get the impression BT would like to lock you in to their "solution". In the US the modem, the router/wireless router, and the cordless phone base station would all be separate units that you can buy from multiple vendors. That lets you upgrade any feature independently and you don't have to pay monthly rental fees.

Hi Andy,

It's not all BT. There are a great many other internet service providers. Most are simply acting as resellers of the BT service, but not all.

But they all tend to provide, or at least offer, their own routers, even though you can buy your own if you prefer.

It's a bit risky to do that, because at the slightest hint of a fault or any other problem, they home in on any non-supplied kit and blame that. If you use the kit they supply, they don't have that get-out.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[AndyB]

That's good to hear Martin. Actually I rent the modem from the cable company and own the other bits. If there's a problem I plug my laptop into the modem bypassing everything else and ask the cable guy to " 'splain this "

I've sort of lost count of the number of things that attach to our wireless LAN. Something like three TVs, three PCs, a Chromebook, a couple of iPads, two mobile phones and my Kindle. I've given up with wireless printers. They are attached to PCs now. Then there's the security system.

Oh, and there's a wireless repeater to get the LAN into my shop. The shop is completely clad in steel so I had to mount the repeater at a window. I should have buried a Cat-5 cable from the house to the shop when I put in the power cable but I only thought about that after I had backfilled the trench. Doh!

 

[Pierre]

Martin,

What you call a wireless phone is better called a cordless phone. The base unit plugs into your modem or landline phone socket and the remote units (there are often a number of them which can be placed in various spots around your house/property) communicates with the base unit by a wireless link. The wireless link taking the place of a fixed wire system in your house.

Regards,

Pierre

 

[Martin Wynne]

What you call a wireless phone is better called a cordless phone. The base unit plugs into your modem or landline phone socket and the remote units (there are often a number of them which can be placed in various spots around your house/property) communicates with the base unit by a wireless link. The wireless link taking the place of a fixed wire system in your house.

Thanks Pierre.

Yes, I already have such a system. The base unit plugs directly into the PSTN landline socket (public telephone system). Many residential users in the UK have a similar system.

In this case however, I have a new broadband modem/router which includes an integral base unit for several such cordless phones. I would need to buy the phones separately.

However, as far as I know, they can only connect with the public telephone system via VoIP (voice over internet) through the modem, which at present is not provided on my landline socket. It can be, but it is normally available to businesses rather than residential users, and is more expensive. This will change in 2025.

To use VoIP at present I would need to do so via my computer and the normal broadband system independent of the telephone network, a method which is used by only a minority of users in the UK.

Many folks have decided not to have a telephone landline, using instead the 4G/5G mobile system for both phones and internet. Which has the disadvantage that you can't continue to use your previous landline telephone number.

However, rural users lucky enough to have line-of-sight to a radio-broadband transmitter can use VoIP easily, see for example:

https://www.airband.co.uk/technology/fixed-wireless-broadband/

(above posted for interest only, I have no connection with Airband.)

I'm happy to be corrected on any of this -- the situation in the UK is in permanent flux.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Pierre]

Martin,

Somewhat different to here in Australia. Our local PSTN providers usually also supply a broadband service and over the last few years have pushed the VIOP solution as a way of lowering their costs by relieving them of the need to maintain the copper cable phone network. The main disadvantage here is the loss of the exchange battery 50v DC so that in the event of a power failure you loose your VOIP phone when your mains powered router dies, unless you have paid for a battery back-up system to keep your router going when the mains power goes out and they are a bit pricey. We are all suposed to have mobile phones for the power failures. To sweeten the VOIP deal number portability is generally available so we maintain our old landline phone numbers when we shift to VOIP and they generally throw in free local and long distance calls from the VOIP phone as well (some (my mum whose an OAP) even get free calls to mobiles within Australia).

 

[Martin Wynne]

over the last few years have pushed the VIOP solution as a way of lowering their costs by relieving them of the need to maintain the copper cable phone network. The main disadvantage here is the loss of the exchange battery 50v DC so that in the event of a power failure you loose your VOIP phone when your mains powered router dies

Hi Pierre,

That's where we are going in the UK in 2025. Apparently some of the existing copper cable phone network is 80 years old or more. BT (British Telecom) want to be rid of it. They are fed up with topping up the Leclanché jars in the exchange.

Wikipedia commons

Martin.

 

[S-Club-7]

Apparently some of the existing copper cable phone network is 80 years old or more. BT (British Telecom) want to be rid of it.

<pedant mode on>
OpenReach is responsible for the majority* of the UK's comms infrastructure (no longer BT OpenReach, they were pulled apart several years ago). The situation is similar to Network Rail controlling our railway infrastructure and the various TOCs actually providing the services to customers - BT, TalkTalk etc provide the services in the comms world.
* Virgin networks could be likened to London Transport with its own infrastructure in restricted geographical locations.
<pedant mode off>

 

[Tony W]

The problem with cordless phones is that they need mains power for the base unit to work. We got a set of these when our old fixed line phone died some years ago. When we recently had a power cut for several hours, we had no phone system as although the handsets were charged, the base unit no longer functioned and our mobile phones were useless too as the the local masts lost their power supply. So we couldn't even report the fault. It made us realise how much we have become dependent on modern technology which is far from infallible.

Regards
Tony.

 

[Martin Wynne]

The problem with cordless phones is that they need mains power for the base unit to work.

Hi Tony,

If your cordless base station doesn't have battery-backup, it's worth keeping an old wired phone to plug in for emergencies.

Until 2025, that is. The time's coming when we will all need one of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Briggs-Stratton-SPRINT-1200A-Generator/dp/B0744K67GW

p.s. you get a prize, or at least a warm glow -- message no. 500 on the new forum.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Tony W]

Thanks Martin.
I won't spend it all at once!
Tony.

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Orange and others in France have been pushing VOIP for some time. Guess what, when the Broadband goes down so do the phones!

 

[AndyB]

Orange and others in France have been pushing VOIP for some time. Guess what, when the Broadband goes down so do the phones!

We've used VOIP provided by our cable company for about eight years. It's quite reliable but goes out when the power goes out which happens when a storm drops trees on the power lines. That forced us to get mobile phones for backup.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Jumping back to this topic following this report on BBC News today:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-59564480

One not-mentioned solution remains:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Briggs-Stratton-SPRINT-1200A-Generator/dp/B0744K67GW

At least until we reach zero emissions. After that it's a wind turbine on every roof. Or solar power and a battery.

How about a wind-up clockwork emergency radio transmitter in every home?

Martin.

 

[Stephen Freeman]

5 years in rural France and I could have told them it was a bad idea.

 

[Nigel Brown]

Was switched to VOIP by BT a few months ago. They said it was coming, but didn't receive the supposed email giving me the date. When the phone stopped working (worked but dialling out didn't go anywhere I guessed they'd switched and so plugged the phone into the modem. Fine but what they didn't tell me was that a basic answering service was included. A month or so later started getting a funny dialling tone, checked and realised I had an answering service, and had a months worth of messages I hadn't answered!

Think Ofcom needs to start enforcing some sort of reliable emergency service backup.

 

[Stephen Freeman]

We've used VOIP provided by our cable company for about eight years. It's quite reliable but goes out when the power goes out which happens when a storm drops trees on the power lines. That forced us to get mobile phones for backup.

Which is OK if you don't have to go the bottom of the drive (about 100yards) when we lived full-time in France. The mobile signal there is now a bit better but not much.

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Was switched to VOIP by BT a few months ago. They said it was coming, but didn't receive the supposed email giving me the date. When the phone stopped working (worked but dialling out didn't go anywhere I guessed they'd switched and so plugged the phone into the modem. Fine but what they didn't tell me was that a basic answering service was included. A month or so later started getting a funny dialling tone, checked and realised I had an answering service, and had a months worth of messages I hadn't answered!

Think Ofcom needs to start enforcing some sort of reliable emergency service backup.

Which is OK if your modem/router has a socket for the phone! We current have this white small Openreach box to which our Router plugs into, something to do with Faster fibre or something. Lord knows what we do to go VOIP, not looking forward to it.

Was switched to VOIP by BT a few months ago. They said it was coming, but didn't receive the supposed email giving me the date. When the phone stopped working (worked but dialling out didn't go anywhere I guessed they'd switched and so plugged the phone into the modem. Fine but what they didn't tell me was that a basic answering service was included. A month or so later started getting a funny dialling tone, checked and realised I had an answering service, and had a months worth of messages I hadn't answered!

Think Ofcom needs to start enforcing some sort of reliable emergency service backup.

 

[Nigel Brown]

Which is OK if your modem/router has a socket for the phone! We current have this white small Openreach box to which our Router plugs into, something to do with Faster fibre or something. Lord knows what we do to go VOIP, not looking forward to it.

Went in for BT Ultrafast broadband a couple of years ago (150mbps) which is via fibre to the home. For that they added a new larger white wallbox where the fibre terminates, and a cable from that to the new modem. The socket is in the back of the modem. It comes with a sticker over it to discourage shoving the wrong thing into it.

Still have the redundant small white box. A cable went from that to a splitter which fed both the old modem and the phone, latterly just the phone. Just had to unplug the phone from the splitter and plug it into the new modem.

Very happy with the broadband. Reliable, fast. And getting broadband, phone and mobile in the same package I saved about £20 per month. My old ADSL broadband was about 2 mbps.

 

[John Lewis]

We lost our internet for some 18 hours+ the other day, fortunately our land line still works! It was a BT problem, apparently. Where I live we have fibre to the cabinet at the end of the road, then it uses the copper wire to the house, as I understand it. Come 2025 will they have had to provide fibre for the last hunderd yards or so, or will we have to continue useing the old copper wires?

John

 

[Martin Wynne]

Come 2025 will they have had to provide fibre for the last hundred yards or so, or will we have to continue useing the old copper wires?

@John Lewis

Hi John,

They will continue to use the copper wire for the last few yards to your house. It is called FTC broadband (fibre to cabinet).

Getting fibre all the way to your house, called FTP broadband (fibre to premises) is the long term aim, but it means digging up half the country's roads, so don't hold your breath.

p.s. The term "broadband" seems to be here to stay, despite there no longer being any narrow band. It could now just be called "band".

Martin.

 

[Stephen Freeman]

@John Lewis

Hi John,

They will continue to use the copper wire for the last few yards to your house. It is called FTC broadband (fibre to cabinet).

Getting fibre to your house, called FTP broadband (fibre to premises) is the long term aim, but it means digging up half the country's roads, so don't hold your breath.

p.s. The term "broadband" seems to be here to stay, despite there no longer being any narrow band. It could now just be called "band".

Martin.

Some of it is broader than others and some are just not as broad as they should be.

 

[John Lewis]

Thanks, Martin
John

 

[Nigel Brown]

@John Lewis

Hi John,

They will continue to use the copper wire for the last few yards to your house. It is called FTC broadband (fibre to cabinet).

Getting fibre all the way to your house, called FTP broadband (fibre to premises) is the long term aim, but it means digging up half the country's roads, so don't hold your breath.

p.s. The term "broadband" seems to be here to stay, despite there no longer being any narrow band. It could now just be called "band".

Martin.

Not what the original notice said:
Before December 2025, you will need to upgrade your current broadband if you are with a provider on the Openreach network and have FTTC or ADSL broadband. These need to be upgraded as they both are installed on a WLR line.

The good news is that if you upgrade to FTTP then you should get much better broadband and it might cost you less.

Nigel

 

[John Lewis]

That would be nice.
John

 

[Martin Wynne]

Not what the original notice said:
Before December 2025, you will need to upgrade your current broadband if you are with a provider on the Openreach network and have FTTC or ADSL broadband. These need to be upgraded as they both are installed on a WLR line.

The good news is that if you upgrade to FTTP then you should get much better broadband and it might cost you less.

Nigel

@Nigel Brown

Hi Nigel,

My understanding is that the new SOGEA system (the replacement for FTTC when the PSTN closes) uses fibre to the cabinet and copper from there to the premises. From the cabinet to the premises remains the current ADSL copper system for broadband, but the old copper line from the exchange to the cabinet (the current PSTN line rental, WLR) will be disconnected. Leaving only fibre from the exchange to the cabinet.

Are you saying that you have a new fibre cable all the way to your house? How did it get there? How far are you from the cabinet? How much roadworks were needed? How much mess did it make in the house?

I know there is currently a program in some selected towns to dig and install fibre along all the roads in a selected area, but it's surely not credible that every home in the country that currently uses FTTC+ADSL+Line Rental or ADSL+Line Rental (i.e. the majority) will have a new physical fibre cable installed into the home by 2025?

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Nigel Brown]

@Nigel Brown

Hi Nigel,

My understanding is that the new SOGEA system (the replacement for FTTC when the PSTN closes) uses fibre to the cabinet and copper from there to the premises. From the cabinet to the premises remains the current ADSL copper system for broadband, but the old copper line from the exchange to the cabinet (the current PSTN line rental, WLR) will be removed.

Are you saying that you have a new fibre cable all the way to your house? How did it get there? How far are you from the cabinet? How much roadworks were needed? How much mess did it make in the house?

It's surely not credible that every home in the country that currently uses FTTC+ADSL+Line Rental or ADSL+Line Rental (i.e. the majority) will have a new physical fibre cable installed into the home by 2025?

cheers,

Martin.

Hi Martin

The strange thing is it wasn't advertised at all. I'd knew my somewhat remote area would get a replacement to ADSL sometime, but every time I checked it was "sometime". Then I noticed some engineers working on the pole opposite next door, and stringing a second line across to their house. So I asked him. Turned he was getting fibre to the home. Wow! I was interested! Looked at BT's deals and it turned out I could get their highest offered deal in a package which overall saved me £20 p.m. It's all poles up here; nothing to do with roads.

You get small villages here. I suspect that by the time they got the fibre to the village it was simpler to take fibre to the houses rather than install a cabinet feeding copper wires.

No mess in the house. Just like installing wire to a phone. The fibre goes the same route as my old phone line, from a pole over the road to a pole by my house with the other next door also uses, to the eaves of the house then down to the same opening the phone line uses, then along to the fibre wall box alongside the old wall box.

So, for houses using above ground phone lines, it's dead simple.

Nigel

 

[Martin Wynne]

So, for houses using above ground phone lines, it's dead simple

Thanks Nigel.

That explains it. But that tends to be only rural areas using poles all the way. Generally in urban areas there is an underground copper cable from the cabinet to a single pole, from which radiates the overhead lines to all the houses within reach.

Even areas with pole lines can't necessarily get FTTP -- I've just checked one and the answer is no.

I think there is going to be a lot of confusion and explaining needed over the next 4 years.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Matt M.]

So good to see that another country is making a mess of the 'Broadband' information revolution.
Here the Liberal Party undermined the quality of the NBN rollout mostly on "We aren't going to
support anything the Labor Party started" grounds. Also the Neo-liberal belief that governments
shouldn't own anything meant some really dubious decisions were made to allow a quick sale at
some point.

The net result has been a hodge-podge of technologies that don't really talk to each other properly
and a system that has cost more than it should (being great economic mangers and better at business
than the other party, we did the cost benefit analysis so we know this will work better and be cheaper).

All the medical alarm people went across to the mobile network well before the NBN was halfway done.
For the elderly and infirmed they also supplied phones with internal batteries that swapped across to the
mobile network when the system went down. Not 100% effective but useful, when they work.
But they do light up and tell you that you have missed a call due to voltage drop over the copper network.

But the net result is the landline phone system has gone backwards in quality. I have a friend that several times
a year has to get his 'Service Provider' to sort out the problem at the exchange which stops his phone
from actually ringing. I have severe static at times in the phone line but can't get any sense out of my provider
or the NBN. Probably a poor joint or water getting in somewhere. Phone calls that drop out for no reason.
Strange noises on the lines like constant clicking.

And outside the major population centres the system really sucks.

Now the Liberals have announced they to rebuild this new network to be FTTP so it works properly.
Would have been cheaper if they hadn't stuffed it up and had done it that way from the beginning.

Matt M.

 

[Tony W]

Thanks Nigel.

That explains it. But that tends to be only rural areas using poles all the way. Generally in urban areas there is an underground copper cable from the cabinet to a single pole, from which radiates the overhead lines to all the houses within reach.

cheers,

Martin.

In our village they have been running new fibreoptic cables in the existing ducts as far as the local poles, using the existing copper wires from there to the houses. Ours was done this way and after they had installed it we discovered we had the internet, but no phone, so had to get them back to sort out the problem, (they broke one wire to our house in the process). The exception has been the houses further down our road that were wired up using Aluminium cable and these have been more troublesome, Openreach are replacing those as a priority with fibreoptic right into the properties. I found this out from one of the engineers doing the work.
Regards
Tony.

 

[Hayfield]

In our village they have been renewing the telegraph poles, according to my son in law our broadband speed is very high, but its (copper) wire from the post to the houses. The interesting thing is the Telephone (and internet box) is 50 yards from the telegraph poles

 

[Martin Wynne]

In our village they have been running new fibre optic cables in the existing ducts as far as the local poles, using the existing copper wires from there to the houses.

Hi Tony,

Thanks, that's interesting. Presumably therefore there are no roadside cabinets? Or a small cabinet alongside each pole?

For existing FTTC, the cabinets contain the combiner units which combine the fibre optic cables from the exchange with the PSTN copper wire from the exchange, for the final combined ADSL copper hop to the premises. They need mains power (or at leat the ones here do -- you can hear the equipment humming inside, also I believe they have fans to maintain a positive air pressure inside the ducts from the exchange to keep the very old cables dry and free from corrosion.)

For FTTPo (Fibre to The Pole?) there's no copper from the exchange, so need for the combiner units, but they do need fibre-to-ADSL converter units at the pole which presumably need power. Is there a mains connection to each pole? Or maybe a low voltage power supply is included in the ducts? Or maybe they use your power, feeding it back through the copper to the pole?

I have tried to find a web site explaining all this stuff without success. Anyone? How many different systems are OpenReach using?

A friend has given up on endless problems with OpenReach and is using radio broadband instead, which is working very fast and is not significantly more expensive than ground-based broadband:

https://www.airband.co.uk/technology/fixed-wireless-broadband/

(I have no connection with the above company.)

cheers,

Martin.