Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
|
|||
| author | remove search highlighting | ||
|---|---|---|---|
|
posted: 22 Aug 2010 12:52 from: donald peters
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin, I have looked through the current majesty of Templot to try and précis my concern about the complexity it has developed, a bye-product of it’s expanding breadth of capability and it’s creators work limits. To answer you fully would require a total recapitulating of the material provided.. If you will take as read that my only interest in verbalising my thoughts is, and always has been, my belief that Templot deserves wider acceptance by beginners in near scale modelling, then read on. Because of the breadth of its capability and its dedication to cater for the smallest nuance of full scale practice, it has grown such as to appear a monster to the first time user. Almost everything can be achieved and in consequence the amount of instruction confronting the FTU has become prodigious, scattered and unsettling. Having collaborated over the years on several user manuals the ones that had sections, (broadly) ‘what do you want to do’, ‘how to do it’, ‘how it does it’, plus various examples in a logical connected sequence, always got the thumbs up. It is the orderly sequence that seems to generate a comforting reassurance of an authorised start or entry point. Templot operations on first sight can present an awesome prospect with it’s array of video’s, headings and examples, warnings, and no single starting point into a structured learning way through pandora’s box. Video’s are another but transient guide through examples. This is an undoubted benefit to your time schedules but adds yet another facet of information alongside tutorial lists and “a little gentle geometry” type of sources, altogether they do present a daunting scattering of information with no clear index Your amount of work answering queries, creating new video’s etc. indicates there is something significantly amiss with the facility offered as being an ‘instructions for use’. It may be appropriate for this question of a structure for the correlation of the kaleidoscope of help screens and instruction material be posted for Templotter’s comments? Ideas on ways to organise an easy and progressive way into Templot may encourage previously unthought of suggestions and might just avoid in the future the kind of exchange you apparently had recently with a disgruntled customer. Kind Regards, Donald |
||
|
posted: 22 Aug 2010 13:59 from: Bill_Lobb
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I am possibly not the best person to comment on this, as by and large I have not found Templot confusing. With the help of the notes, videos and this forum I have managed to find out everything that I have needed to know without too much trouble. Having said that there are vast swathes of Templot's functionality that I have never touched and am probably unaware of. But therein lies the difficulty - we all have different needs in its use. For example I regard the F7 snapping facility as the work of the devil, and the only time I have sworn at Templot is when I inadvertently switched it on  . Other people seem to love it.That is fine, it can be switched on and off so everyone be happy.My biggest problem is not Templot itself, but my limited knowledge of full size track. That causes me most confusion - eg when timber shoving what would full size practice be? I don't think that Templot itself could ever answer that. If it could there would be no need for a timber shoving function. Being slightly provocative, could it be that some of the frustration expressed at Templot is really more to do with the the fact that a certain amount of prior knowledge of prototype track is necessary before it can be really effectively used? Its obviously not the case for all - Brian Lewis is one of the most persistent in calling for improved documentation, and I am sure he has no lack of knowledge. Just a thought though. Bill |
||
|
posted: 22 Aug 2010 16:27 from: Jonathan Wells click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Templot is a truly flexible application that will replicate almost any permutation of full size track practice and one really needs to understand the trackwork of the prototype one intends to model to get the best out of Templot. Railway modellers have any number of reference for locos, rolling stock, buildings etc but reference for trackwork is rather scarce by comparison. I've recently purchased a copy of GWR Switch and Crossing practice from the GWR Study Group and though I don't model GWR it is a very useful book which made the point that GWR practice was significantly different from the other Grouped companies which used REA turnouts. From that book, I reckon that using REA trackwork for layouts based between 1930 and 1980 is a safe bet until you have properly researched the trackwork of your prototype. Of course if I want to build Ashburton then the book I mentioned is perfect! |
||
|
posted: 23 Aug 2010 17:41 from: donald peters
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi, Some time ago a Templotter wrote a beginners walk through for a novices first attempt at using Templot (No. It wasn't Martin). Can anyone remember the posting identity? Incidentally. I found the roythebus thread most interesting. Regards, Donald |
||
|
posted: 23 Aug 2010 18:03 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
donald peters wrote: Some time ago a Templotter wrote a beginners walk through for a novices first attempt at using Templot (No. It wasn't Martin). Can anyone remember the posting identity?Hi Donald, Do you mean Allan Ferguson's excellent beginner's tutorial? It's here, but bear in mind it uses version 091c: http://85a.co.uk/getting_started_with_templot_allan_ferguson/ regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 24 Aug 2010 14:14 from: donald peters
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Exactly right Martin, Many thanks Regards Donald |
||
|
posted: 24 Aug 2010 20:42 from: nigel bown
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
mmmmmm may I just add my two penny worth. I purchased Templot after seeing What COULD be achieved. at first I must admit I struggled . but after persevering (and a few emails to Martin) I have got to the stage where I can do what I set out to do. Perhaps a new help function with a more ordered index might be useful. other than that Keep up the good Work Martin Might the problem that most people have is they try to sprint before they can crawl and dive straight into '' the track plan'' |
||
|
posted: 25 Aug 2010 13:15 from: donald peters
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Your two penny worth is worth a lot more than that, believe me.I hope that many Templotters will take the time to do the same. Might I ask if you were aware of Alan Ferguson's beginners guide? If not, could you please have a look at it. Then, with the eyes of a novice employing a scale from (1) encouraging/reassuring to (5) useless/disappointing and rate it as either one or the other or above or below 3. I would be grateful. Regards, Donald |
||
|
posted: 25 Aug 2010 17:30 from: Templot User
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
donald peters wrote: Might I ask if you were aware of Alan Ferguson's beginners guide? If not, could you please have a look at it. Then, with the eyes of a novice employing a scale from (1) encouraging/reassuring to (5) useless/disappointing and rate it as either one or the other or above or below 3. I would be grateful. After a number of years trying to get to grips with Templot (and failing!) I viewed Alan's beginners guide and proceeded to plan two layouts, one P4, the other 0-16.5 and then I used the templates to build the track for the P4 layout. The results can be seen here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/19096-wigmore-road-sidings/ The track for the narrow gauge layout is this winter's project. So on a scale of 1 to 5 I most certainly give it a Great Big ONE (and a star if available). Regards Arthur |
||
|
posted: 25 Aug 2010 21:16 from: donald peters
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Visited your rmweb site ref. I would agree it looks a great success. Many Thanks for reply Regards, Donald |
||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 08:55 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Arthur Budd wrote:After a number of years trying to get to grips with Templot (and failing!) I viewed Allan's beginners guide and proceeded to plan two layouts, one P4, the other 0-16.5 and then I used the templates to build the track for the P4 layout. Wow! I have updated Allan's text with a few extra remarks in places. I hope you don't mind Allan? There was no mention of F7 snapping, which is mainly for beginners, so I added a note about that: _________________ Update: In the latest versions of Templot you can simply snap the templates together using the mouse with F7. Just move the brown template until one end is close to the end of a blue template, and when you click or release the mouse it will jump into alignment. So store and background for this first part of the siding. Now I want to attach another bit of track to the end of the siding. To create this new bit of track, right click anywhere, then mint from control template. Then using the mouse with F7, snap the new template onto the end of the last one. And skip the next part... The next part of this sequence is some practice in using the peg and notch functions to do the same thing. These are normally used only when creating the more advanced track formations. ________________ I have also re-formatted the images so that the menus are legible, and numbered them so that it is easier to keep track of where you are when scrolling a long page. The link is the same as before: http://85a.co.uk/getting_started_with_templot_allan_ferguson/ If you have previously visited this page, you will need to press CTRL+F5 in your browser to update it. Many thanks again Allan for preparing this.  regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 11:44 from: donald peters
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin recommended the video in response to roythebus' query http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/flash/startup/startup/_em.html. Altho' this is a response to a specific query it incidentally shows some interesting aspects relating to switch construction itself in the way that the form changes in 'steps' as the length changes Would this demo highlight more clearly (for those new to the structure of the prototype)how the individual component parts that make up a switch have to change in dealing with O/A length and radius alterations? | ||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 15:49 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
donald peters wrote: in the way that the form changes in 'steps' as the length changesHi Donald, I think you are referring to the switch size changing as the V-crossing angle is adjusted with the F5 size mouse action? Unless you have set a custom switch, Templot changes the switch size in F5 to get the most likely prototypical match to the crossing angle. The well-known list of bullhead standard leads* is on the Clag web site at: http://www.clag.org.uk/protodata-bullhead.html You can see that there are a lot more possible crossing angles than switch sizes, so the effect is a step jump in lead length when a small change in the crossing angle causes the switch size to change. You can prevent the switch changing by right-clicking while using F5 mouse action, and then selecting lock switch on the pop-up menu. The colour of the descriptor bar in the information panel changes to pink to indicate that the switch size is locked. In this way you can try the less-common or unprototypical switch/crossing combinations and see the result quickly. You can also of course set up any switch/crossing combination you wish by using the template menu options. *to get an exact match to the prototype lead length shown in the list you need to be using an exact-scale track gauge, and in Templot you should set a generic type of V-crossing and do > convert RAM to CLM unit angles. (Where a dimension A is shown in the list, set a regular V-crossing instead.) regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 16:07 from: Brian Nicholls
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Martin, As a beginner myself, I think a point worth mentioning here is that when you are working zoomed in on an area and try to placed a template at a particular point using F7, sometimes the template disappears or moves away from the location you want when you release the mouse key. The answer to this, I have found, is to perform DO …> UNDO CHANGES twice (x2), this then brings the template back to the point where you last put it when you released the mouse key. The above usually happens when you have a cluttered formation and the control template jumps to a nearby background peg point instead of the place you want. This I might add, only happens using F7. Hope this does not confuse anyone, but thought it might clear up “The case of the disappearing or moving Templates”.  Regards Brian Nicholls. |
||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 16:14 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Brian Nicholls wrote:when you are working zoomed in on an area and try to place a template at a particular point using F7, sometimes the template disappears or moves away from the location you want when you release the mouse key.Hi Brian, Hold down the SHIFT key to cancel the snapping function, or turn snapping off entirely. More info at: http://www.templot.com/martweb/f7_snap_demo.htm regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 16:44 from: Brian Nicholls
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Wynne wrote: Hold down the SHIFT key to cancel the snapping function, or turn snapping off entirely.Hi Martin, Many thanks for the advice. Just goes to show that I did not look deep enough to find the demo, might have saved you some time in responding to my posting. All the best. Brian Nicholls. |
||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 16:51 from: richard_t
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Wynne wrote: *to get an exact match to the prototype lead length shown in the list you need to be using an exact-scale track gauge, and in Templot you should set a generic type of V-crossing and do > convert RAM to CLM unit angles. (Where a dimension A is shown in the list, set a regular V-crossing instead.) <bobble_hat>And should I also modify the switch as well? I think I remember you saying/writing once that the switches that templot draws are based on Southern designs (except for F switches); where as some of the switches for the LMS (for example) such as A,B,C and F are different.</bobble_hat> |
||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 17:26 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
richard_t wrote:<bobble_hat>And should I also modify the switch as well? I think I remember you saying/writing once that the switches that Templot draws are based on Southern designs (except for F switches); where as some of the switches for the LMS (for example) such as A,B,C and F are different.</bobble_hat>Hi Richard, <bobble_hat>For all practical purposes the REA switches (i.e. non-GWR) up to size E are identical for all companies, using the same components. The differences are only in the way they are dimensioned -- whether the heel is taken to be at the last switch chair, or at the rail joint. This means that for non-natural turnouts, there is a short 13" length of rail which in one case is at the switch radius, and in the other case is at the turnout radius. The effect of this difference on the lead length is insignificant. Templot uses a virtual heel position on the last chair for all sizes, corresponding to SR practice. Only the SR and LMS used F switches, and they each had their own design. The LMS F-20 turnout is 6ft shorter than the SR F-20 turnout. Templot uses the SR design -- if you want a specifically LMS F switch, you must create a custom switch.</bobble_hat> regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 17:29 from: richard_t
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Thanks for all of that. Wish I had the space for an F-20! |
||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 18:07 from: Brian Nicholls
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Brian, Hi Marin, Not quite sure if this is the right place to put this, but it does follow on from my above posting and your reply to it. Any way here goes ! I used the shift key with F7 when moving a template, and sure enough, it remained where I put it (no disappearing). However, when finished moving, I then needed to adjust the curving using F6 key, but on applying F6 (without the shift key pressed) I found the movements (on screen) had become jerky as opposed to the normal smooth flow I got before.  I had previously set the response rate to 2000 for F6 & F8 for fine control, having used them earlier without the problem. I also tried F7 again (without the shift key pressed) and found that also had become jerky in operation. What I mean by JERKY is that there was a delay of a couple of seconds or so before the line moved on the screen when moving the mouse, such that it caused me to move the mouse again thinking I had not moved, thus giving a double movement which the program eventually obeyed. With the keys operating in this jerky fashion, it became awkward to set things accurately and became very irritating, so I decided to save all files and quit the Templot program as an experiment. I then opened templot afresh and when asked, requested my Last working files. I then started where I had left off using F6 to curve, and found all keys, including F7 had returned to their normal smooth flow operation. On the face of it, once you use the SHIFT key together with F7 it appears to cause this jerky delayed operation thereafter, and to recover from it, you have quit to restart the program. Other than this I cannot explain why this should have happened. Perhaps I will try the SHIFT key again and see if the problem repeats. BTW am using version 0.91.c on my PC running XP SP3 Regards. Brian Nicholls. |
||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 18:41 from: nigel bown
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
WOW Alan Ferguson's startup guides brilliant. Martin May I suggest you direct people to that as well as your video working with the two i am know have even better iea of why i get what i do when i do some thing ....... ish | ||
|
posted: 26 Aug 2010 18:55 from: allanferguson
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Wynne wrote:
As the perpetrator(!) of this guide I feel I should comment. (1) I'm very happy with your amendment, Martin. (2) If even one person has found it helpful in getting started, I'm delighted. (3) This was never meant to be even an incomplete guide to Templot. My view was, and is, that most effective learning of any software program (or anything else new) occurs when you try things and see what happens. However, if you can't get anything to happen then the result is frustration, disappointment, and irritation. So my objective was to enable a complete beginner to create something recognisable without having to do any previous learning, and thereby to feel that although there is much to learn it is at least worth pursuing it. Then it's worth making the effort to go through the considerable amount of guidance available; but to do this at the start is simply too frightening for many users. (4) One reason I felt I could create such a guide is that I know very little about Templot, so cannot burden my reader with more information than he immediately needs; I suspect that Martin (with respect!) would find it much harder to create such a guide, because he knows too much! Regards Allan Ferguson |
||
|
posted: 27 Aug 2010 13:20 from: donald peters
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Thanks for reply Martin. My point was really about the the steps in the F5 mouse video that reveals the fact that a template is not a unit (as in model tinplate) but really an assemblage of elements/entities and items have to change individually in sizing. The video shows the effect of 'sizing' a template in best prototype practice where our template uses incremental standardised parts and tailored parts to obtain the final turn-out. To a newcomer it may be of help (in view of the opinion of two replies that a good starting point for an introduction to using Templot would be a section on typical prototype turn-out practice) to have attention drawn to what is happening in the real world when 'sizing' F5 Mouse-wise in the intoduction. The video would do that I think. |
||
|
posted: 28 Aug 2010 11:48 from: donald peters
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I would like to draw attention to another excellent run through called "For confused newbies Part 1 and 2" and circulated by Tim Peacock 01 March 2004. This is slightly different to Allen's and because of that may suit some people more than that one. Two heads are better than one they say why not two runthroughs especially as we have Martin's tutorials as well. REgards, Donald |
||
|
posted: 28 Aug 2010 12:15 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
donald peters wrote: I would like to draw attention to another excellent run through called "For confused newbies Part 1 and 2" and circulated by Tim Peacock 01 March 2004.Hi Donald, Thanks for reminding me about Tim's guide. The original is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/message/3670 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/message/3671 and with some additional comments from me: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/message/3675 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/message/3676 Although those cover the peg and notch functions in some depth, I would like to remind beginners that you don't need those functions for a simple track plan. If you follow this video you can see that they are not explicitly used: http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/flash/starter/em_starter.html And for situations where those methods don't apply, in 082d and later there is also F7 snapping: http://www.templot.com/martweb/f7_snap_demo.htm regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 29 Aug 2010 12:38 from: donald peters
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin, a bit OT but I have tried umpteen ways to access the message id's you give snd all I get is Firefox 'created errors/will shut program and IE claiming that the site ID is unintelligable and 'Ask Jeeves' which says the same or sending me to oo-SF. It only seems to be happening (I checked a couple of others) re these messages. Any ideas?) Regards, Donald |
||
|
posted: 29 Aug 2010 12:56 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Donald, Do you mean the Yahoo group links which I posted in my previous message? They are working fine here. I have just tried them again in both Firefox and IE. Anyone else having trouble? Martin. |
||
|
posted: 29 Aug 2010 13:11 from: Geoff Cook
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi No problem using IE8 Geoff Cook |
||
|
posted: 29 Aug 2010 13:43 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Fine here using Firefox Nigel |
||
|
posted: 29 Aug 2010 15:13 from: Bruce A Wilson
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Just a thought. Is he a member of the yahoo group? | ||
|
posted: 29 Aug 2010 15:25 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Bruce A Wilson wrote: Just a thought. Is he a member of the yahoo group?He doesn't need to be. The message archive is public. regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 29 Aug 2010 16:25 from: John Lewis
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin wrote: Do you mean the Yahoo group links which I posted in my previous message? > They are working fine here. I have just tried them again in both Firefox and IE. > Anyone else having trouble? Works fine using Opera. |
||
|
posted: 29 Aug 2010 16:51 from: Alan Turner
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
OK with IE7 Alan |
||
|
posted: 29 Aug 2010 19:42 from: donald peters
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi, Many thanks guys......I think. :-( Regards all, Donald |
||
| Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so. |