Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 10:31 from: BruceNordstrand
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Hi all Just wondering who created the USA turnouts box file? I ask as it does not seem to match any specs I have found for USA based turnouts. Well, let me qualify that..... I used the USA turnouts box file as the starting point of my layout. I started with a section of plain track from the box file and laid out the basics then inserted turnouts into that plain track. I made the assumption that Templot would insert USA turnouts into the track at the required points on the plans (using Template -> Insert turnout into plain track). However I found out tonight (WAY too late to do anything about it) that, for example, a #6 turnout on my Templot plan is NOT a #6 USA turnout, well at least not according to both the proto87 website or the templates available on handlaidtrack.com. So, have I totally stuffed up and designed turnouts that do not match my US based prototype? And if I have stuffed up what exactly HAVE I used? All I know is I cannot trust any of the turnout sizes I have defined because they definitely are not US turnout numbers.... I have attached my box file incase anyone feels like helping me figure out what exactly I have used for my plan....  Cheers Burce |
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| Attachment: attach_991_1390_RS-AUS-V3.box 236 | |||
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 12:09 from: Martin Wynne
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BruceNordstrand wrote:Just wondering who created the USA turnouts box file?Hi Bruce, If you mean this one: message 8260 It was me wot dun it.  I'm sorry that I seem to have made a mess of the plain track template. I didn't anticipate that anyone would do insert turnout in plain track on it -- I should have done. The turnout which you get if you do that is #5.5 V-crossing with a switch labelled "US-style switch", but the only US aspect to it is the timber size and spacing. The rest of it is a UK-pattern 12ft straight switch. It is now 3 years since I created that file and I cannot now remember where the plain track template came from. It seems that I found an old template with the required timbering and converted it to plain track, without considering the consequences of converting it back to a turnout. Normally when using Templot, after doing insert turnout in plain track the next action is to change the inserted turnout to the one required for the actual location. It's not often that you will want to use the inserted turnout exactly as-is. However, you should be able to do so if you wish. I need to be more careful about checking this in any sample plain track files I create in future. There are two sizes of US-style switches in the above file, 11ft and 16ft-6in (made from a third and a half of a 33ft rail, historically). Please note that these are generic examples -- they don't represent any specific American prototype, and I don't know how closely they match the Proto87 and Fast Tracks templates. You can of course create custom switches in Templot matching those or any other prototype if you have the data to hand. I see that you have added the sample templates from the above file at the bottom left of your plan. If you want to convert the switches in your plan to match those, this is what to do: 1. Click on the template in your plan and then click delete to the control on its menu. 2. Press CTRL+4 (once) to put the peg on the FP. 3. Click on the sample template which has the switch you want, either 11ft or 16ft-6in. 4. On its menu, click obtain to the control > obtain switch menu item. 5. Click main > store & background menu item. 6. Repeat for each turnout. please note as always that a "switch" in Templot, UK and Europe is only that part of a turnout comprising the moving points, not the entire turnout. I see that you have now posted on the Accu-Trak group about this. I think it would have been helpful to have waited for this reply first, although I understand your frustration. I now need to post a reply there to clarify some misunderstanding. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 12:12 from: BruceNordstrand
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Ok, definitely something going on somewhere... Just printed a #6 turnout from my plan and one directly from the USA box file and they are different even though they both say #6 US Style turnout. Here's some data from both of them Mine: switch front = 18.96 vertical lead = 185.63 actual lead = 186.51 blunt nose to timber A = 17 US turnouts box file version (sized up from the #5 in the file) switch front = 19.83 vertical lead = 166.07 actual lead = 166.96 blunt nose to timber A = 17 Now, using David Honers turnout calculator spreadsheet I see that the lead of a #6 turnout, based on AREA 1941 data for example, is closest to the USA turnout box file version of the number 6 with the lead at 166.6595382 mm Interesting...... |
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 12:20 from: BruceNordstrand
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Hi Martin I was off looking for info on real data and happened to be typing the above when you replied. I see now what happened after reading your reply. Please rest assured I had no intention of belittling Templot on the Accutrak list, I merely wanted to find out where I could get the correct data for turnout data which I was then going to turn around and ask here how I get it into Templot. However, after reading your reply above I see a way of possibly getting the track info right in my plan however if it changes too much I will just have live with what I have as I have already had 3 copies printed on A0 paper and now have all my roadbed in place based on the plan in the box file. Also, I in no way hold you responsible for this issue simply because you created the file originally, it should have been up to me to ask how it worked (inserting into plain track) before rushing off to get my plan done. Cheers Bruce |
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 12:40 from: BruceNordstrand
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Ok, I just checked a printed version of my turnout changed as per your instruction and rail wise, including throwbar, it is an exact match for the turnout template available on the proto87 website which I am ultra happy about. Not true however for a #6 template from Fastracks, theirs are out on both Templot and proto87 but that is by the by. Now, if I can just figure out how to customise the timbering to my specs and spacing I will be more than a happy man. I want to replicate proto87's tie (timber in English speak) layout so if I decide to use one of Andy's cool jigs it all matches. Cheers Bruce |
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 13:34 from: BruceNordstrand
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Well, because of my wish to have close to correct turnouts it looks like a bit of a redesign is in order. I just changed a bunch of turnouts to the correct switch length and it threw a whole bunch of stuff out, especially where a number of turnouts are bunched together. I guess I won't be laying track this weekend after all. I just hope that once I am done with the "refining" of switch lengths that the overall configuration hasn't changed so much that the roadbed needs replacing..... Now if I can just find where that darn turnout timber stuff is again....... |
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 14:19 from: Martin Wynne
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BruceNordstrand wrote: I just changed a bunch of turnouts to the correct switch length and it threw a whole bunch of stuff out, especially where a number of turnouts are bunched together.Hi Bruce, ??? I can't find anywhere on your plan where that's the case. After converting as explained above, a little adjustment on F3 and F4 restores your plan almost unchanged. If you give me an hour or two I will do it for you. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 14:28 from: BruceNordstrand
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Martin Wynne wrote: BruceNordstrand wrote:Hi MartinI just changed a bunch of turnouts to the correct switch length and it threw a whole bunch of stuff out, especially where a number of turnouts are bunched together.Hi Bruce, There is something strange then. I have attached the actual one I am working with (V4) (the one above is prior to an change of siding direction) and also a version that I changed the switch lengths on (V4a) that threw track alignment out in the tipple area (the three parallel tracks to the left). I followed your instructions (notch on FP etc ) and this is what I got...... First up, version 4 of the plan, untouched. |
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| Attachment: attach_992_1390_RS-AUS-V4.box 226 | |||
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 14:32 from: BruceNordstrand
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Now version 4a with the changed turnouts... I really appreciate the offer to do the changes and I cannot thank you enough. I would definitely be alot slower at it than you would be. |
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| Attachment: attach_993_1390_RS-AUS-V4a.box 221 | |||
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 14:54 from: Jim Guthrie
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BruceNordstrand wrote: Ok, I just checked a printed version of my turnout changed as per your instruction and rail wise, including throwbar, it is an exact match for the turnout template available on the proto87 website which I am ultra happy about. Not true however for a #6 template from Fastracks, theirs are out on both Templot and proto87 but that is by the by.Bruce, I posted a link to details of Pennsy track and pointwork on here a short while ago PRR Track Drawings and I know that someone commented that the details would apply to the PRR only and not to other railroads in the US. It would appear that there are quite a few different designs of trackwork in the US, just as there were in the UK, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Proto87 drawings are based on one design and the Fastracks one on another. Jim. |
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 15:05 from: BruceNordstrand
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Hi Jim Just caught your reply before I headed off to bed (2 am here in Aus). I have known the PRR had some weird and wonderful track configurations but I also checked with a spreadsheet by David Honer who used AREA 1941 data to construct his turnout calculator. Davids, Martins and Andy's data was so close it hurt ( ) in lead length for a #6 but FT's seem to have a longer lead length. I suspect theirs is more inline with NMRA info than any specific prototype. As I am modeling the mid 40's in Virginia I tend to lean towards the AREA 1941 data more than anything else. Cheers Bruce |
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 16:07 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Bruce, Here is your original file, converted. There is no significant change to the roadbed or track alignments. Most of the switches are now 11ft, with a couple of 16ft-6in. I haven't made any other changes, there is still some timber shoving to do in places. Also there are several places where you have used #6 turnouts, where something a bit longer would fit. These are generic templates with evenly-spaced timbers. If you want exactly to match Andy's Proto87 templates for timbering, it will need some further timbering adjustments. regards, Martin. |
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| Attachment: attach_994_1390_modified_file_for_bruce.box 259 | |||
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posted: 25 Feb 2011 20:27 from: Martin Wynne
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BruceNordstrand wrote:that threw track alignment out in the tipple area (the three parallel tracks to the left). I followed your instructions (notch on FP etc ) and this is what I got......Hi Bruce, er, 4a. If the turnout is within a transition zone, adjust the zone position markers back to where they were before (SHIFT+CTRL+F3, or [ key). I did that on the templates I uploaded earlier. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 26 Feb 2011 01:03 from: BruceNordstrand
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Martin Thank you very much for modifying the turnouts to true US style, very much appreciated. You must cringe sometimes when you see what people are doing with your software Thanks also for the suggestion of upping a few of the turnout sizes, I will look into that with the background scan in place. Now, one last question if I may.... In the V4 box above the siding coming into the tipple area is opposite to the siding in V3. Can anyone tell me how I get the exact templates out of V4 and put them into exactly the same place in V3? Thanks again Cheers Bruce |
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posted: 26 Feb 2011 02:02 from: Martin Wynne
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BruceNordstrand wrote:Can anyone tell me how I get the exact templates out of V4 and put them into exactly the same place in V3?Hi Bruce, There are three methods: A. Use the parking bay. Recommended. Can be used for up to 3 templates. B. Use the rollback function. For one template only*. C. Save the template(s) to a file. Then add that file to the other track plan, or to any other track plan at any time. For as many templates as you wish. In other words: For method A: 1. in V4 click on the template and then click copy to the control on its menu. 2. click the do > parking bay > park template menu item, or press CTRL+P. 3. for more than one template, use the other parking bay menu items similarly (there is no keyboard shortcut for these). 4. reload V3. 5. when you are ready, click the do > parking bay > retrieve template menu item, or press CTRL+R. 6. main > store & background. 7. retrieve and store any other templates similarly. For method B: Same as A, but don't bother with the parking bay. After reloading V3, immediately click the do > undo changes menu item or press CTRL+U. For method C: 1. in V4 select the template(s) as member(s) of a group -- click on them one at a time and then click group select (toggle) on the menu for each. Or use any of the other ways of selecting a group of templates. 2. group > save group... menu item. 3. reload V3. 4. main > reload / add from file ... menu item, and click the add to existing templates option. Select the saved file and load it. *Method B actually works for up to 80 templates. But that requires clicking things in exactly the right order, so only for those who like to fly Templot on a wing and a prayer. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 26 Feb 2011 02:47 from: BruceNordstrand
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Once again, thank you for your time and effort. I'll do A as there is 3 templates involved, B looks like alot of work and need to stay on the ball, hard to do with 3 kids playing Wii right next to me One last question on this if I may, just where do I go to customise the turnout timbering? I need to add 2 15' timbers on either side of the throwbar and then respace the remaining timbers to match AREA 1941 prototype.... I'll upload the changed version of the plan when I am done. I have also reconfigured the plain track for 33' rails with 22" tie spacing as per branch track settings. If I am brave enough I might even try timber shoving around the turnout exits. After all that I will reprint again on Tuesday and start my tracklaying in earnest... Cheers Bruce |
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posted: 26 Feb 2011 03:38 from: Martin Wynne
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BruceNordstrand wrote:One last question on this if I may, just where do I go to customise the turnout timbering? I need to add 2 15' timbers on either side of the throwbar and then respace the remaining timbers to match AREA 1941 prototype....Hi Bruce, There isn't a single place. The timber sizes are set at real > timbering > timbering data... menu item. The timber spacings in the switch are set in the custom switch settings. The timber spacings at the V-crossing (frog) are set at the several real > customize V-crossing > menu items. For odd sized timbers and unevenly spaced timbers, you must use the shove timber functions. Alternatively you can do the whole thing by shoving timbers, if you are working from someone else's drawing or template rather than actual dimensions. Ideally you needed to set all this to match the Templot templates to your prototype before designing a track plan with them. Now that you have your track plan designed with the wrong timbering and/or lead lengths, you need to do some re-working. Fortunately you have used only a few sizes, mostly 11ft switches + #6 crossings. You can create a fully customized 11ft / #6 straight template off-plan, and then use the align function to replace each of your track plan templates with a copy of it. If you want to copy Andy's Proto87 templates exactly, I suggest having them on-screen as a picture shape and shoving the timbers to match. You can get the lead length to match exactly using the action > mouse actions: real > adjust V-crossing entry straight mouse action. Bear in mind that most of your templates are curved, including some on transitions, whereas Andy's assembly fixtures are all straight. Alternatively you can enter the data directly from the AREA* dimensions. I have full details of those here, but no time at present to do detailed templates, sorry. If you want to change all the plain track rail lengths and tie spacings, you can do that in one go using the modify on rebuild functions. *for those wondering, that's the American Railroad Engineering Association. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 26 Feb 2011 09:41 from: BruceNordstrand
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Hi Martin Thanks for the explanations. I have decided to create each turnouts tie layout as I lay them. I found that proto87's template is close enough in the first 15 or so ties that I can use that for the 1st 15 and then Templots for the remainder. This will give me 15' throwbar ties and the remaining spread between those and the frog. Bit more work at laying time but should be OK. I can really see there is so much more to Templot than I ever knew existed. I love the app and am now determined to just play around with a few plans to see what I can do with it. Anyway, here is the final version of my plan. I spent the afternoon rolling rails and shoving basic timbers around to get the ties as clean as I can. I will handle the finer details of ties around turnouts when I actually lay the track. This plan has now been printed to PDF all ready to be printed on A0 paper around Tuesday. Thanks again for all your help on this, it is appreciated more than you know. Cheers Bruce |
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| Attachment: attach_995_1390_Roanoke_and_Southern_DU.box 226 | |||
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posted: 1 Mar 2011 00:36 from: BruceNordstrand
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Help again! I decided to do full tie layouts based on the proto87 templates and was successful in creating an image to import into Templot to work with. Completed the 11' switch version and then tried to import another image for the 16'6 switch version. The original image was created in Photoshop (as was the first one), saved as BMP and moved to the SHAPES directory. This image can be opened by Windows however when I try to add it as a background shape to Templot I keep getting "Stream Read Error" and nothing I do can get around it. Anyone have any ideas of what is going on? Cheers |
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posted: 1 Mar 2011 00:45 from: BruceNordstrand
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BruceNordstrand wrote: Help again! I decided to do full tie layouts based on the proto87 templates and was successful in creating an image to import into Templot to work with. Completed the 11' switch version and then tried to import another image for the 16'6 switch version. The original image was created in Photoshop (as was the first one), saved as BMP and moved to the SHAPES directory. This image can be opened by Windows however when I try to add it as a background shape to Templot I keep getting "Stream Read Error" and nothing I do can get around it. Anyone have any ideas of what is going on?Well it seems the problem was Templot didn't like 600 dpi, reduced the image to 300 dpi and it imported OK. Will know for next time high res not good |
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posted: 1 Mar 2011 00:50 from: Martin Wynne
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BruceNordstrand wrote:Anyone have any ideas of what is going on?CheersHi Bruce, You may have saved it in OS/2 bmp format instead of Windows bmp, or as a compressed RLE bitmap. Try opening it in Microsoft Paint and then saving it again. If it's less than 5MB please upload it here so that I can take a look at it. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 1 Mar 2011 02:43 from: BruceNordstrand
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Hi Martin No worries, ait's all done now. The file is 193KB in size now and all I did in Photoshop was change from 600 to 300 dpi and save as BMP again. I will check in future that any images are not as you have explained above. Cheers Bruce |
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