Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 11 Apr 2011 15:27 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi All, I have been doing a re-write of Richard_t’s excellent irregular diamond crossing help guide (without which, I may not have attempted this), in the hope of finally producing a video of it. I am still having teething problems with the video, not so much the actual screen capture and editing, but cannot seem to get the final production to go to either AVI or SWF, but that’s another story and not the subject of this posting. I order to make things flow smoothly in the video, it meant I had to make sure of every move (key stroke and mouse) had to be correct and spontaneous. With this in mind, I not only went through the process many, many times, but also had to write out in long hand each and every thing that was required. In doing this, I now realise that I have produced another document that may be of use to others regarding this topic, so have decided to post it, in the hope that it is of some help. (see attachéd PDF file below) Please note, there are not so many screenshots as Richard’s original, but my document covers every move (in words and instructions) that is required to complete an irregular diamond crossing from start to finish. I would be most grateful for any feedback on this document, just to see if it is of help and if it requires further explanations and modifying. All the best, Brian Nicholls. |
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| Attachment: attach_1037_1451_How_to_Construct_an_Irregular_Diamond_Crossing_v1.pdf 351 | |||
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posted: 11 Apr 2011 16:02 from: Raymond
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That looks most interesting Brian. I shall use the pdf, have a go at an irregular diamond and reports back in due course. Regards Raymond |
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posted: 11 Apr 2011 16:32 from: Brian Nicholls
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Raymond wrote: That looks most interesting Brian. I shall use the pdf, have a go at an irregular diamond and reports back in due course.Hi Raymond, Many thanks for the quick response, I look forward to your report in due course. Hope the PDF file helps. All the best, Brain Nicholls. |
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posted: 12 Apr 2011 07:48 from: richard_t
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If and when* I get a moment, I'll give your version a try. As with mine the list of instructions looks large, so I hope people aren't put off of trying either version. Once you've done one or two it becomes a lot easier, and it's a great way to learn about using partial templates. *It might be tomorrow as we have BT here... hopefully with faster broadband ... we'll see. |
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| Last edited on 12 Apr 2011 07:49 by richard_t |
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posted: 12 Apr 2011 13:31 from: Raymond
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Hi Brian, I have had a good play with that and, for a complete beginner it should prove an excellent way into using Templot for this complex formation. For me, with a little experience it became, naturally, very repetetive. Though I recognize that this is designed for a video, perhaps a few more screen shots would make it all the more clear for those who prefer a printed document. I do like the ease and elegance you have in using the centre lines to get things accurate, much better than the method I evolved anyway and I shall certianly use it future. However, I am puzzled as to why you keep so much in the 'Parking bay'. Surely it is far quicker just to pick up the Vee and expand that again for the next stage in making the wings and check or the half diamond? It is already lined up. Why not simply keep the info pad open (F2) and use that to put in the names before saving? No need then to faff about finding it again to change the name. Martyn's program is so versatile that there must be many ways to achieve the same end. Thanks for showing me a few new wrinkles. Regards Raymond |
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posted: 12 Apr 2011 14:01 from: richard_t
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Raymond wrote: Hi Brian, That's probably due to the original doing it that way. It's not necessarily the best way - just a way of doing it. |
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posted: 12 Apr 2011 14:43 from: Brian Nicholls
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richard_t wrote: If and when* I get a moment, I'll give your version a try. As with mine the list of instructions looks large, so I hope people aren't put off of trying either version. Once you've done one or two it becomes a lot easier, and it's a great way to learn about using partial templates.Hi Richard, Many thanks for your response. Please feel free to try my version as an when you can, I will very much appreciate your comments on it. I think both of us have in mind the Templotter who has not done such things before, and hopefully, these guides (yours) and instructions will help them along in understanding what can be achieved. I cannot agree more in what you say about doing things several times it gets a lot easier, also that, it is a good way to learn about using partial templates, as I think most of the time we spend designing our track-work falls into this category. Simply put more time is spent on complex partial templates than all the straight forward plain track and simple turnouts that might appear on our layouts. All the best, Brain Nicholls. |
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posted: 12 Apr 2011 15:51 from: Brian Nicholls
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Raymond wrote: I have had a good play with that and, for a complete beginner it should prove an excellent way into using Templot for this complex formation.Hi Raymond, Many thanks for your report on my instruction document. As you say, for a beginner, who probably needs help with such a formation, it should be of assistance, and frankly this is what I had in mind. Like yourself, I have now been using Templot for just over a year, and have learned a lot in that time. I have (and am still going through) a learning curve using Templot, and I try to understand (put myself in their place) how beginners must find difficulties in achieving complex formations without having previous experience, hence the instruction notes. Though I recognize that this is designed for a video, perhaps a few more screen shots would make it all the more clear for those who prefer a printed document.I take your point about adding more screen shots and will most likely do this on the next pass round. However, I am puzzled as to why you keep so much in the 'Parking bay'. Surely it is far quicker just to pick up the Vee and expand that again for the next stage in making the wings and check or the half diamond? It is already lined up.Regarding the ‘Parking Bay’ issue, as Richard_t said in the posting above, this was in the original. It is of course a matter of choice, and is six of one, half a dozen of another as to which you use. I did however, consider this and found, from a written instruction point of view, to do as you suggest would have added about three extra instructions per quarter diamond by the time you have to explain how to un-blank and reset pegs in different positions, so decide to keep the parking bays. Also if you observe in the instructions, when you put the turnouts into the parking bay’s they are already lined up at the vee, and when called back from the bay, will automatically line up back to the FP of the vee. Why not simply keep the info pad open (F2) and use that to put in the names before saving? No need then to faff about finding it again to change the name.Yes I agree that keeping the info pad open, one could title the template at that time and may well do this. Here my excuse was to remove all unwanted clutter from the screen (such as the info and zoom/pan boxes) as these add to the file size of the video recording I must thank you again Raymond for your comments, they are very much appreciated. I am also very glad to find that we can still teach each other a thing or two. Bye the way, have been thinking about a method that will reduce my instructions by 2 or 3 whole Steps (not just instructions) without compromising the accuracy of the templates, so look out for version 2 of the document. All the best, Brain Nicholls. |
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posted: 13 Apr 2011 17:01 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi Raymond, Richard_t As I mentioned in my last posting, I have sat down and completely rationalized and re-written the whole irregular diamond instructions set, and is designated version v2. This has resulted in a much shorter version, less steps involved, and all the superfluous junk taken out. In addition I have added many more screenshots of the operations involved and the results of those actions. If you have the time please give this document the once over and perhaps try using it. I will appreciate any comments you care to make. Have fun give it a try !! All the best, Brain Nicholls. |
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| Attachment: attach_1038_1451_How_to_Construct_an_Irregular_Diamond_Crossing_v2.pdf 302 | |||
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posted: 19 Apr 2011 09:29 from: Raymond
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I have now had time to go through this new version; much improved and should prove invaluable to newbies for an elegant way to produce curved diamonds. Regards Raymond |
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posted: 19 Apr 2011 10:47 from: Brian Nicholls
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Raymond wrote: I have now had time to go through this new version; much improved and should prove invaluable to newbies for an elegant way to produce curved diamonds. Hi Raymond, Many thanks for your most appreciated comment. I sincerely hope the instructions will be of help to others, that’s the reason for publishing. All the best, Brain Nicholls. |
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posted: 20 Apr 2011 11:34 from: richard_t
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Hi I've had a chance to look through this. I think I've found a mistake, which came from me. In 7.0006, it's suggested to do action/F5 sizing optins/length locked. I actually meant to say (when in sizing mouse action), right click and select "lock switch". I'm not that sure it's important anyhow, as the peg is on the FP and we don't really care what happens to the switch. Around step 10, you might need 2 templates here, as the check rails (at the vee end) from half diamond might overlap those from the vee set. I've had this a couple of times. I *think* also this template should have the diagonal-road check rails, rather than the main-road. It's all to do with what it's checking. But as I've said before, we'd use gauges for all this, so really it's just cosmetic. Otherwise good stuff :-D |
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posted: 20 Apr 2011 12:32 from: Martin Wynne
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richard_t wrote:I actually meant to say (when in sizing mouse action), right click and select "lock switch". I'm not that sure it's important anyhow, as the peg is on the FP and we don't really care what happens to the switch.Hi Richard, If you don't lock the switch when using F5 you will get sudden step changes in the turnout radius through curviform V-crossings, when Templot jumps to the next most appropriate switch size for the crossing angle. This may not affect the final result, but it can be very irritating if you are in the middle of a fine close-up adjustment. Note that such jumping doesn't happen for a custom switch, so an alternative to locking the switch is to use a custom switch on the template. This also lets you adjust the switch heel angle to fine-tune the turnout radius, but repeated iterations can be very tedious. All this changes in the next Pug -- if I ever get it finished.  A gaunt turnout (which doesn't have a switch) will be available for such partial V-crossing templates, and F9 will allow a V-crossing angle to be adjusted without any effect on the switch. The turnout radius through a curviform V-crossing will be adjustable independently of the crossing angle by changing the gaunt offset.regards, Martin. |
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posted: 20 Apr 2011 14:09 from: richard_t
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Martin Wynne wrote:If you don't lock the switch when using F5 you will get sudden step changes in the turnout radius through curviform V-crossings, when Templot jumps to the next most appropriate switch size for the crossing angle. This may not affect the final result, but it can be very irritating if you are in the middle of a fine close-up adjustment. Note that such jumping doesn't happen for a custom switch, so an alternative to locking the switch is to use a custom switch on the template. Is this the case if you're zoomed in around the fine point, and the peg is on the FP? Won't the turnout size change towards the switch end? Which is roughly the case with the irregular diamonds. Also any chance of "lock transition" in the next version? Cheers. |
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posted: 20 Apr 2011 17:08 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi Richard_t, First I would like to say thanks for your email response, it is very appreciated. richard_t wrote: I've had a chance to look through this. I think I've found a mistake, which came from me. In 7.0006, it's suggested to do action/F5 sizing optins/length locked. I actually meant to say (when in sizing mouse action), right click and select "lock switch". I'm not that sure it's important anyhow, as the peg is on the FP and we don't really care what happens to the switch. I’m a little confused here as, unless I am missing something, I cannot seem to find a “lock switch” option in any sizing menu in Templot !! Suffice to say, I have always used “length locked” and it appears to work OK each and every time since, as you say, the peg is on the FP and therefore providing a fixed datum point and switch is not of real significance. Around step 10, you might need 2 templates here, as the check rails (at the vee end) from half diamond might overlap those from the vee set. I've had this a couple of times. I *think* also this template should have the diagonal-road check rails, rather than the main-road. It's all to do with what it's checking. But as I've said before, we'd use gauges for all this, so really it's just cosmetic. Here, I agree with what you say, however, if you set things up very carefully (don’t rush things) the minute misalignment between the main road wing rails and turnout road wing rails is only the thickness of a line at full zoom in magnification. And as you say, these will be gauged to the correct position during actual mechanical construction of the crossing. If the individual wants to be pedantic and critical about this, I did discover a work round which gives complete accuracy, but does required two templates instead of one. I discovered this whilst doing an irregular diamond crossing for New Street, which had a very sharp (small angled) vee at the one end, this being 1 : 3.62 (I know Templot suggests that such small angles not be used [ less than 1 : 4], but the layout dictated this) Also I have recently received some copies of original LNWR civil engineering drawings of their Vee crossings and diamond crossings, and they go right down to prototype angles of 1 : 2 !!! When I first tried using F5 to align the diamond to the centre lines of the curves with this small angle, I found the main road wing rail alignment to the vee was grossly out and had to find a method of dealing with this, hence the work round. Now back to the work round, below is listed what to do when faced with either a small angled vee (less than 1 : 4 ) or if complete accuracy is essential (or required): This should be performed on the converted diamond, not the turnout switch. If the vee has been omitted from the template, then bring this back into view as follows: Use < do > < omit rails and joint marks... (CTRL+O) >. And tick the vee box, leave all the other boxes as was. First check the alignment between the main road wing rail and the vee (zoom in as required), if not acceptable then do the following: Ensure the peg is on the FP. Next set < action > < F5 V-crossing angles > < any angle > Then select < action > < F5 sizing options > < length locked >. Next, use < action > < mouse actions: real > < adjust turnout size only (F5) > so that the turnout side of the template vee matches that of the crossing formed of Exit roads (or Approach Roads as required) (only a reasonable portion of the vee needs to exactly match the crossing rails). You will need to ZOOM in very close to align the small portion at the vee, and then again re-select F5 to complete the fine alignment. Once you have achieved this alignment, you will now find that the centre of the diamond does not reach the centre point of the crossing made by the two curves so, we must use a copy of this template to correct this Next, use < do > < parking bay > < bay 1 : park template (CTRL+P) >. Or Paking bays 2 or 3 whichever is available. Now < do > < blank up to V-crossing > this will eliminate the K crossing end of the template up to as far as the front end of the check rails. Now remove all rails, crossing vee and joint marks, except for the main-road crossing rail, main-road stock rail and the main road check rails, un-tick all the boxes except the three rails mentioned, leave these ticked, Use < do > < omit rails and joint marks... (CTRL+O) >. Now store this using < main > < store & background (CTRL+V) >. Next use < do > < parking bay > < bay 1: retrieve “xxxx” (CTRL+R) > or bay 2 or 3 as appropriate. Ensure the peg is on the FP. Next set < action > < F5 V-crossing angles > < any angle > Then select < action > < F5 sizing options > < length locked >. Here, set < geometry > < track centre-lines >. Next, use < action > < mouse actions: real > < adjust turnout size only (F5) > Until the two track centre lines converging point of the diamond, matches that of the crossing point formed by the centre lines of the two Guide Curves. You will need to zoom in to achieve accurate line up. As in Figure 10 in my instruction document. You will need to ZOOM in very close to the centre line crossing point, then re-select F5 in order to accurately position the half diamond centre lines. Do not worry about one of the half diamond centre line not quite lining up with the centre line of Guide Curve, as this is not significant at this time, but do ensure the crossing point centre is correctly aligned by the other half diamond centre line. This will now give you an overlapping template to that previously set down, we must now remove the vee end of this new template. Now, un-set < geometry > < track centre-lines >. Next use < action > < mouse actions: geometry > < adjust overall turnout length (F4) >, and adjust the length of diamond until it just meets the blanked section of the previous template. Now remove all rails, crossing vee and joint marks, except for the main-road crossing rail, main-road stock rail and the main road check rails, un-tick all the boxes except the three rails mentioned, leave these ticked, Use < do > < omit rails and joint marks... (CTRL+O) >. Now store this using < main > < store & background (CTRL+V) >. You should now have your quarter diamond crossing with accurately positioned wing rails. Now do the same for the other quarter diamond on the same side of the crossing. I know this may seem a bit long winded, but it is a reasonable good way of getting accurate positioning of the template parts. All the best, Brain Nicholls. |
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posted: 20 Apr 2011 18:01 from: Martin Wynne
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Brian Nicholls wrote:I’m a little confused here as, unless I am missing something, I cannot seem to find a “lock switch” option in any sizing menu in Templot !!Hi Brian, On a turnout template, press F5. Then right-click and select the lock switch ( in F5 ) menu item. On a half-diamond template, this option is selected automatically. (There isn't a switch to lock of course, it means the K-crossing angle is locked to the V-crossing angle -- for a regular diamond.) regards, Martin. |
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posted: 20 Apr 2011 18:41 from: Brian Nicholls
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Martin Wynne wrote: On a turnout template, press F5. Then right-click and select the lock switch ( in F5 ) menu item. Hi Martin, Many thanks for the speedy response. Well you learn something new every day, I had never considered right clicking the mouse when an F5 control character was active. As you know doubt gather from the above statement, I’ve still got a lot to learn about Templot. At least I now know to try a few more things like this and find out what happens. Bye the way, (this is for the benefit of all others) in the mean time I have found that, you can apply a transition to a quarter diamond crossing road. But more on this when I have experimented further. All the best, Brain Nicholls. |
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posted: 28 Apr 2011 11:39 from: Martin Wynne
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richard_t wrote: Martin Wynne wrote:Hi Richard, Yes, regardless of where you are zoomed-in, or the position of the peg, if you use F5 on a non-custom turnout without locking the switch. The turnout radius will make step jumps as Templot swaps to the next switch size. The new alternative will be to use a partial V-crossing template from a gaunt turnout. This allows the turnout radius to be smoothly adjusted while the V-crossing angle remains fixed. See: message 6765 Also any chance of "lock transition" in the next version?Please explain. What do you want to lock, and where, when and how?  Have you tried using the action > transition zone options > transition fixed (roll-out) mode? If you do try it, please be aware of this fatal bug which I omitted to fix in 091c:topic 308 regards, Martin. |
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