Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
|
|||
| author | remove search highlighting | ||
|---|---|---|---|
|
posted: 14 Jun 2011 05:17 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I wish to draw attention to the following note on the Templot web site: THE TEMPLOT LICENCE IS SUPPLIED TO ORDER IN THE FORM OF A LOCK-RELEASE CODE NUMBER FOR YOUR COMPUTER. THE CODE NUMBER IS GENERATED TO YOUR SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION AND FOR YOUR SPECIFIC COMPUTER. IF I ACCEPT YOUR ORDER I SHALL START PROCESSING YOUR ORDER IMMEDIATELY IT IS RECEIVED AND YOU THEREFORE AGREE AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO EXERCISE ANY RIGHT UNDER DISTANCE SELLING LEGISLATION TO CANCEL YOUR ORDER. BEFORE ORDERING PLEASE MAKE SURE THAT TEMPLOT WILL MEET YOUR NEEDS BY REFERRING TO THE DETAILS DISPLAYED ON THE TEMPLOT WEB SITE. IF YOU ARE NOT COMPLETELY SURE WHETHER OR NOT TO PROCEED I RECOMMEND THAT YOU DO NOT PROCEED. Also, please note that the option to buy Templot by post is now withdrawn. Online via PayPal only please. I would just add that the price of Templot has now remained unchanged for over 10 years.  regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 14 Jun 2011 09:40 from: mike47j click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Have you checked that is OK ? I suspect it's not, and that DSR will still apply. I think the most you can do is to reduced the default period of 28 days down to 7 days and only if its clearly stated on your site. Also by having such a term in your contract there is a risk that the whole contract becomes worthless. Mike Johnson |
||
|
posted: 14 Jun 2011 11:22 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
mike47j wrote: Have you checked that is OK ?Hi Mike, DSR does not apply to items made to order, which includes a Templot lock-release code. A code created for one user is not usable by any other. Similar terms appear on other web sites where work is carried out in response to a click, for example the setting up of web hosting accounts. Regardless, if I am prevented from making my intellectual property available on terms of my choosing, I shall simply stop supplying it at all. regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 14 Jun 2011 15:10 from: Paul Whitaker
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin I am not a lawyer, so please take what I'm about to say with a huge pinch of salt... Martin Wynne wrote: DSR does not apply to items made to order, which includes a Templot lock-release code. A code created for one user is not usable by any other.I fear that you may be on very dodgy ground in claiming that a Templot lock-release code is something "made to the consumer's specifications" (or even "clearly personalised"), which are the actual words used in the regulations (see section 13 of http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2334/made) Similar terms appear on other web sites where work is carried out in response to a click, for example the setting up of web hosting accounts.I would expect that the example of web hosting falls under the provision of services, rather than goods, in which case there is a specific exemption from the right to cancel if the provision of the services has commenced before the end of the usual cancellation period (as long as the supplier has provided all of the necessary information in advance). I suspect you would be better off claiming an exclusion from the DSR on the basis that Templot is computer software that the customer has unsealed (which has a specific exemption), or that you are actually providing a service rather than physical goods, which the OFT's guide (http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf section 3.39) suggests would be the case for downloads of electronic books or music - so maybe software delivered electronically should also fall into this category. This would then allow you to claim the same exemption as the web hosting companies (though I suspect only from the point at which you provide the lock-release code, as section 3.21 of the OFT's guide suggests that admin/prep work done prior to the start of the service can't be claimed to be when the service begins) Regardless, if I am prevented from making my intellectual property available on terms of my choosing, I shall simply stop supplying it at all.That would be a terrible shame, though I completely understand your point of view - but I would hope there is enough leeway within the regulations to satisfy you (and I'm guessing that your concern is providing a lock-release code to someone who then chooses to "cancel", with no means for you to stop them continuing to use your hard work without payment - which would infuriate me too) Paul |
||
|
posted: 14 Jun 2011 15:47 from: Brian Nicholls
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Wynne wrote: Also, please note that the option to buy Templot by post is now withdrawn. Online via PayPal only please.Hi Matin, Sorry to have to chip in on this one. I would rethink your strategy on this point, I personally never use, and never will use, PayPal as a method of payment for goods. There have been far too many rumours and other peoples comments running around about deals going wrong and payments not being met and goods not being sent to customers when using PayPal and that’s to say nothing of the extortionate PayPal charges to yourself. I also never send any credit details over the internet, I either use the telephone or postal services to pay for goods. In a nut-shell, If this proposal to eliminate postal purchases had been in force in March 2010, I would not have bought Templot. All the best, Brian Nicholls. |
||
|
posted: 14 Jun 2011 16:22 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Brian Nicholls wrote:I would rethink your strategy on this point, I personally never use, and never will use, PayPal as a method of payment for goods.Hi Brian, I've just checked, and over the last 6 months the number of orders received by post is less than 1% of the total. It's just too much hassle and difficult for me to make repeated visits to the sorting office to collect mail, when 90% of the time there is nothing there and it is a wasted journey. I have had a PayPal account for over 10 years now without any problems at all, and use it in preference to any other when ordering online. It is extremely rare for anyone ordering Templot via PayPal to complain of having any problem, it must be several years since the last time I received such a complaint. PayPal have made their web site very easy to use now. The PayPal charges are not extortionate and compare reasonably with other merchant services, bearing in mind the extreme ease of use and the lack of any fixed fees. The charges are certainly less than the time and trouble involved in dealing with orders by post. regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 14 Jun 2011 16:37 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Brian Nicholls wrote: I would rethink your strategy on this point, I personally never use, and never will use, PayPal as a method of payment for goods.Hi Brian I'm extremely security conscious when it comes to using the internet. E.g. I do not as of yet use internet banking, as I'm not convinced that the security is, for me, good enough. But I have no trouble in using Paypal. It's a good idea as with any mail order transaction to ask yourself do you trust the supplier. So I only use those who I'm pretty sure are trustworthy. But given that I've never had an problems. The 3mm Society, of which I'm a member, is in the process of moving from credit cards to Paypal, as there is less confidential information about the consumer involved, and it works out cheaper and easier to manage. Cheers Nigel |
||
|
posted: 14 Jun 2011 18:01 from: Paul Boyd
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi BrianI would rethink your strategy on this point, I personally never use, and never will use, PayPal as a method of payment for goods. There have been far too many rumours and other peoples comments running around about deals going wrong and payments not being met and goods not being sent to customers when using PayPal and that’s to say nothing of the extortionate PayPal charges to yourself.I would suggest that you don't listen to rumours and start using it!  I have been for something like 6 or 7 years, both as buyer and seller, and have yet to have a problem, or frankly, to hear of anyone having a problem specifically related to Paypal itself. Any purchase can go wrong, regardless of how it's paid - in fact I would be much happier to pay someone using Paypal as the vendor never gets to see my card or bank account details. This is absolutely ideal for a small vendor as people will buy from them using Paypal, whereas they might be nervous giving card details.Cheers |
||
|
posted: 14 Jun 2011 20:24 from: Rob Manchester
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Wynne wrote: mike47j wrote:Hi Martin,Have you checked that is OK ?Hi Mike, Why not make new purchases of Templot available on an free 'Evaluation' period without a lock release code being needed. After a preset period ( 14 days maybe ? ) a new user would have to apply to you ( and pay for ) a lock release code for a specific computer or the program would not load. I am sure you could put the required coding into the program. There could be security issues with ANY form of payment. Paypal offers more safety than most do. Paypal is surely the best way for you to accept payment. Many people on here would be with me on insiting you do continue to supply Templot. Rob |
||
|
posted: 14 Jun 2011 22:59 from: Dellboy
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin,Martin Had a quick look through this topic and all the concerns mentioned. To my mind Robs suggestion of an evaluation period would seem the best way forward as it seems to be able to addresss all the concerns? Like many others I have never had a problem with Paypal. I have held an account for over four years and would always welcome it as a means for payment. More and more companies are now offering Paypal which is good news to me. Incidently I have used online banking for longer than I can remember, couldn't live without it! |
||
|
posted: 14 Jun 2011 23:08 from: Les G click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin, I am not a lawyer either, but as a customer, the provision of a personalised access code tailored to a my specific computer clearly seems to fit the description of being specifically personalised. There is also Caveat Emptor, which places a responsibility on the purchaser to ensure that what is being purchased is what they want. It is therefore up to me, as customer, to decide if the software will meet my requirements before I buy. Which I did, and I have. quote from the legislation: ( my bold underline) c)for the supply of goods made to the consumer’s specifications or clearly personalised or which by reason of their nature cannot be returned or are liable to deteriorate or expire rapidly;.It is convenient for purchasers to have a choice of payment method, but I also take the view that it is up to a vendor to determine what forms of payment are acceptable to do business. The penalty a vendor may have to accept is that any limitation of method of payment may result in lost sales. Given the statistics of your time in business, the potential loss is acceptably small, especially when the extra hassle of postal ordering is taken into account. This seems to be a bit of a storm in a tea-cup, or is someone trying it on? Best wishes, long may you continue with distributing Templot. Les G |
||
|
posted: 15 Jun 2011 03:45 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Thanks to all for your thoughts on this and detailed discussion of the DSR legislation. I'm satisfied that generating a non-returnable lock-release code from customer-specific supplied computer details falls within the DSR exemptions on two counts -- items made to order, and breaking the seal on computer software. I intend to continue as indicated in my first message. If a situation arises where I am forced to return a payment against my wishes I shall simply stop supplying Templot. It is my intellectual property and I alone shall determine the terms on which it is made available for use by others. regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 15 Jun 2011 08:13 from: John Shelley
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Dellboy wrote:Had a quick look through this topic and all the concerns mentioned. To my mind Robs suggestion of an evaluation period would seem the best way forward as it seems to be able to addresss all the concerns?Re Paypal. I live in France and have retained the UK bank account that I had before we moved, simply changing the registered address to my new French one. Paypal doesn't want to know about my UK bank card with a French address. Cheers for now, John from 33820 St Ciers |
||
|
posted: 15 Jun 2011 10:31 from: Glen Suckling
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
John Shelley wrote: Re Paypal. I have experienced the same experience with my UK bank account attached to my US address. Glen |
||
|
posted: 15 Jun 2011 17:53 from: Paul Boyd
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I've been reluctant to wade into the DSR issues because I can't see what the fuss is about - Martin has stated his terms - end of story. With absolutely no disrespect to Martin, this is not Microsoft we're talking about, but a guy offering a product that was developed for his own use and would like to share. But... just a random thought. The TDV has a mechanism to block it's usage. Is this on a per-user basis or global? If the former, then maybe something like a limited number of time-limited uses without a key could be allowed, and the lock release code then stops Templot asking to be unlocked. I'm writing this without any conviction though because I still feel there really is no issue |
||
|
posted: 15 Jun 2011 18:28 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Paul Boyd wrote:But... just a random thought. The TDV has a mechanism to block it's usage. Is this on a per-user basis or global? If the former, then maybe something like a limited number of time-limited uses without a key could be allowed, and the lock release code then stops Templot asking to be unlocked.Hi Paul, It's global. It could be made per user with a lot of faffing about and extra code on the server. I have no plans to get involved in all that, I have more than enough to do as it is. My intention is to remove it from the final Pug, not add to it. But free demos, evaluation versions, time periods, etc., do nothing at all to solve the DSR issue, because DSR only comes into force at the point where payment finally changes hands. Limiting full use after payment has been made would I feel be very user-unfriendly and create a lot of grief. I'm set against free demos etc., because the support load from so many users trying Templot and asking for help would knock me for six. It's only by insisting on payment first that I can keep the number of users within bounds and manage the support load. The Templot web site contains more than enough information including all the tutorials and videos for any intelligent user to decide whether Templot is what they are looking for. And if it doesn't, anyone unsure can come here on Templot Club and ask for friendly opinions and advice. Frequently I advise enquirers that Templot probably isn't what they want, and steer them towards AnyRail or 3rd PlanIt or SCARM. regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 15 Jun 2011 18:37 from: Paul Boyd
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi MartinIt's global. It could be made per user with a lot of faffing about and extra code on the serverNo, please don't do that! |
||
| Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so. |