Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 15 Sep 2011 16:13 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi All, I wonder if someone would be kind enough to enlighten me (advise me, call it what you will) regarding the radius dimension on the drawing shown below. The radius dimension is, as shown, 594 ft, or 9 chains The question is, would that dimension shown be for the centre line of the turnout track, or would it be for the curve of the crossing rail only as shown ? I know in most cases, the turnout radius, when related to the turnout as a whole, is referred to as the centre line radius, but this one has me guessing (which is something I don’t want to do when inputting data).  All the best, Brian Nicholls. 1853_151110_270000000.png  |
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posted: 15 Sep 2011 17:26 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Brian, It's the radius in the rail, which Templot matches exactly: gauge > other gauges... > set exact scale... > 4mm/ft geometry > straight template > switch settings... > 12ft straight heel switch template > V-crossing settings... generic crossing, 1:8 do > convert RAM to CLM The result shows the turnout radius is 2376.32mm. Dividing by 4mm/ft = 594.08 ft. 2_151223_570000000.png  Unfortunately the lead length (minus the 12ft) is not quite so accurate. You will find this often on old drawings that it is impossible to reconcile all the dimensions using modern methods. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 15 Sep 2011 19:55 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi Martin, Many thanks for the very quick and detailed response, that certainly does answer the basic question I asked,  however, as is usual with me, it often leads to a raft of other questions.Q1. For example, I’ve just dropped down onto the pad, a raw 12ft straight heel RH 1 in 8 RAM (1 in 8.03 CLM) turnout template (in the TDV). This shows the heel line mark as being between the S6 & S7 timbers, where as the switch rail break line is shown between the S7 & S8 timbers (this is the same as in your picture of the turnout in your reply above). Now I was under the impression, that the switch rail break was the heel point, except of course for flexible switches. The heel being at the switch rail break point, is shown on most, if not all, the LNWR Pt Way drawings I have on turnouts. Now what has happened in Templot about the heel marks, why the difference between the rail break and the mark line ? Or am I missing something ? Martin Wynne wrote: do > convert RAM to CLM Q2. In your reply you do a conversion from RAM to CLM to get the rail gauge face radius dimension, do I have to always do this and use CLM to view the data, or write data in ? Q3. On the subject of the timbers, is it possible to customize a template with interleaved timbers along most of the lead length, (other than by shoving timbers when the template is on the workpad) ? The reason for this question is, that earlier LNWR switches (approx from the 1870‘s until almost the 1900’s) used considerable interleaving in their construction, and I thought it might be worth trying to customize them since they would then have all the chair positions correctly placed (i.e. the centre line of each timber). I think that’s enough disturbance for you now Martin, many thanks again for the reply it certainly cleared that up. All the best, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 15 Sep 2011 21:21 from: Martin Wynne
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Brian Nicholls wrote:Q1. For example, I’ve just dropped down onto the pad, a raw 12ft straight heel RH 1 in 8 RAM (1 in 8.03 CLM) turnout template (in the TDV).Hi Brian, The pre-set straight-type switches in Templot are based on those listed in Table 7 in BRT3 (1964). In these the nominal switch length is taken to a virtual heel position, and the actual switch rail longer. For a 12ft switch the switch rail is 14ft-6in long to the rail joint. 2_231113_100000000.png  More about the above: topic 1129 I have to keep repeating that if you have some specific prototype data, it is up to you to use Templot to create corresponding custom templates. You can't expect Templot to contain pre-set data for every pre-grouping company and period. I don't have that information, and if I did the user interface for it would be a nightmare. If you post a full drawing of an LNWR 12ft switch, I will create a custom switch for you. At present I don't have that information, but obviously you do.  Also I don't know for certain that the LNWR used CLM unit angles. I would be mighty surprised if not, but until I see it stated on a drawing, or I can derive it from the quoted dimensions, it is just an assumption. Like so much else. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 16 Sep 2011 00:54 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi Martin, Many thanks again for the detailed response. Strange as it may seem, I drew a diagram almost exactly like yours, but I did not have the lead length to heel as you have since, the detail I am working from, has that set at the same as the length of switch rail, as explained in my previous message. However, I am most grateful for the diagram, it has clearly answered that question. Martin Wynne wrote:
I think there may have been a slight misunderstanding here, and I think it may have been in the wording of my question for which I apologise.  I was not necessarily asking if Templot could do interleaving directly from the set of templates already contained in the program, I know it cannot (other than shoving timbers when in control), but what I was asking, was could I, by inserting the right data in a particular way, customize such a template. Here again I suspect not, because I can imagine, it would need extra timbers adding to the list, and putting the right data to throw and twist the interleaving timbers to the correct positions, however, that’s only supposition on my part. I think on this one we should leave it alone for the moment, as I don’t wish to take more of your time up in answering my questions.
I thank you for the kind offer to create a template for me, and may well take you up on it, in order to use that as a ‘pattern’ for other customized templates I would like to do. However, at this time I have a problem with copyright of the L&NWR Society, but will broach the subject with the archivist and drawing officer and obtain permission to send you a copy. As a matter of interest, it was my intention to send you a complete set of all the LNWR drawings I have, plus others which are on the way, having got permission to do so first of course, but there has been a slight hitch, in that the source files from which the copies of the drawings were done, were themselves of very poor quality, due to the incorrect way they were scanned in the first instance. Now I have been onto the L&NWR Socy and have been into contact with Ray Berry the drawings officer on several occasions, who has recognized the poor quality of their source copies and is, at this time, trying to locate the original drawings, which were done on linen material, in order to get these drawings professionally scanned and much better copies obtained for their archives and for those that need to use them. I last spoke to him (Ray) towards the end of last week, and he tells me he thinks he has located the originals, and is making an effort to go and get the drawings for scanning, but due to whatever reason, Ray was not quite clear on this, he can only get the drawings on the 20th of the month, so if he misses this months opportunity (Sept), he can only go again on the 20th of October. I am therefore, waiting with baited breath for Ray to call me, or email me, that he has the drawings and is getting them scanned, he will then send me new copies of what I have, and some for other additional drawing copies I’ve not yet seen. Also I don't know for certain that the LNWR used CLM unit angles. I would be mighty surprised if not, but until I see it stated on a drawing, or I can derive it from the quoted dimensions, it is just an assumption. Like so much else. Regarding, the RAM/CLM units of angles, although I have not seen anything about that on the drawings I have, I will now have a much closer look, just in case I have missed something, unfortunately, because of the poor quality, some details are obscured, and cannot be read. I will also ask the LNWR socy if they know which was used. If I get results on any of the above, you will be the first to know. Thanks again Martin, All the best, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 16 Sep 2011 12:16 from: Martin Wynne
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Brian Nicholls wrote:I was not necessarily asking if Templot could do interleaving directly from the set of templates already contained in the program, I know it cannot (other than shoving timbers when in control), but what I was asking, was could I, by inserting the right data in a particular way, customize such a template.Hi Brian, You have lost me there, sorry. If you create a custom turnout template containing interlaced sleepers, you should be able to curve and align it in the usual way. This topic may help: topic 1598 regards, Martin. |
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posted: 16 Sep 2011 15:20 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi Martin, Many thanks for the pointer, I remember Richard's wondering B1 timber. Will continue with my customized turnouts and see how things go. All the best, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 17 Sep 2011 21:38 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi Martin, Have just finished a short while ago, a sample LNWR Turnout customized template. It took me a while to sort out the basic data, and have also found conflicting information regarding the timber layout, which I am trying to resolve with the LNWR Socy. And possibly old original photos (if I can get them). The main conflict concerns interleaving timbering, so have only produced a simple straight forward timbered template, will do (and show) the interleaved version when appropriate info is available and is confirmed. The custom template, is as follows: The file is shown on my PC as “ my demo custom switch “ in the menu list under. < Template > < switch settings … > However, I will rename this appropriately when I know the template is satisfactory. LNWR 12ft Straight Heel Switch, with a ‘V’ crossing of 1in 8 (CLM); generic V-crossing. (shown in image below). Here, I have assumed CLM angles were used by the LNWR, although, have no documented confirmation of this, but am still trying to find out. The Turnout radius for the rail gauge face works out quite well being, 2375.87mm = 593.9675ft near enough 9 chains (594ft). Also the lead works out well too, Template Actual lead (switch toe to blunt nose) = 67.905 -12 = 55.905ft (the drawing shows 55ft 1in), just a tad out. I managed to calculate the “A” Timber centre to blunt nose tip as 4in, and is confirmed on the drawing I have put in the Image Gallery. This drawing is a scratch drawing I did which contains all the information “bits” from several of the original drawings plus some details that I have added where the info was not quite clear, and is ONLY related to a 12ft Heel switch, with ONLY a ‘V’ crossing of 1 in 8 CLM. I have attached the box file which contains just this template. I would appreciate your comments on the template. If you need any further information, please do not hesitate to ask. All the best, Brian Nicholls. undefined 1853_171628_500000000.png  |
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