Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 02:40 from: Martin Wynne
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Dear all, Following activity today, as a temporary measure I have disabled the posting of attachments with messages. This is to give me time to think about this dilemma: Is it better to allow users to post a rash of "beginners tutorials", which while done with the best of intent do not properly cover the features of Templot2 or even 091c, and do not match each other? Leading to a mish-mash of help for new users of TDV and Templot2 which must surely cause more confusion than it cures? Or should I simply close the whole of Templot down until I have got Templot2 released AND written a completely new beginners guide which properly covers all the changes in the 12 years since 074b? Heaven only knows how long that will take -- I can barely spend any time on Templot at present. But letting new users start on Templot2 with the present unholy mess of documentation is surely going to create a storm of support problems. Templot2 will be entirely free to everyone, so there is likely to be a big rush of new users. TDV is currently free to all too, and has seen a big increase in downloads. But it is at least plastered with "unfinished" notices and I can pull it back at any time via the server. If you find the entire Templot site off the air in a day or two, my apologies. It will be back, but I must find a way forward which preserves my sanity. Somewhat at the end of my tether, Martin. |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 11:19 from: Les G click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I think Martin is correct about the confusion created by a multiplicity of Beginners' tutorials,  especially with the variety of versions covered.I also believe that it is time to call a moritorium on major forum contributions, [ valuable though they can be in the wider scheme] in favour of KISS - keeping it short and simple... Short questions: eg where is the bit that does that? and short answers: either a link to where it is at, or a couple of sentences pointing at which level of which menu. This would allow the struggling user to continue to get the little bit of help needed to keep going with basic formations.  More importantly, Martin could relax,  and leave the helping-hands task to the willing, experienced users; thus freeing him up to enjoy Christmas and apply his time, in his own time, to completing his labour-of-love project, but without further risking the loss of his sanity.Finally, To Martin, hope you feel that you can keep the site open. To voluminous posters: please take a short break to give Martin a break. To those who need help: please search first, then keep it short. To everyone else, and all the above: best wishes, Peace and goodwill for Christmas and the New Year.Les G |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 14:43 from: mike47j click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin, why not set up a wiki that any templot member can edit, and then leave it alone. This works for many projects. There are enough good people on this list that want to help but can't, that something useful should come out of it. If nothing good comes out of it, you always have the option to delete it all. Mike Johnson |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 14:49 from: Alan McMillan
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Oddly enough I had the same thought this morning. Good plan Mike. Alan |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 15:49 from: John Shelley
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mike47j wrote: Martin, why not set up a wiki that any templot member can edit, and then leave it alone. This works for many projects.On the face of it a quite good idea, but if anyone can edit it then you could well end up with erroneous information which would be even worse than no information. Cheers for now John from 33820 St Ciers sur Gironde, France |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 16:04 from: Les G click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Dear Mike and Alan, edited posting: I had thought that a mini-wiki could be quite a good idea for the future, but then I read John Shelley's post so changed my opinion: I have deleted what was my second paragraph in light of Martin' post on the subject which was obviously being compiled as I was preparing my original. He is so much more erudite that I am. Surely, we should acknowledge, and respect his pleas of recent weeks . We can do this best by refraining from adding to his already unacceptable work-load. best wishes, Les G |
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| Last edited on 20 Dec 2011 17:06 by Les G |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 16:10 from: Martin Wynne
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Why am I reaching the end of my tether? Every single email from Templot Club contains this line: Please use the above link to reply to this message. It is not possible to reply to this message by email. Yet I have already received several replies to this topic by email, suggesting wikis and similar schemes. I just don't have time to reply to them. If folks can't even get this right and post on Templot Club, what chance of correct information being posted on a wiki? It would be a nightmare, taking more of my time to edit and correct it than to write it myself in the first place. Utterly fed up. Martin. |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 17:05 from: Phil O
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Martin Wynne wrote: Why am I reaching the end of my tether? Every single email from Templot Club contains this line: Please use the above link to reply to this message. It is not possible to reply to this message by email. Yet I have already received several replies to this topic by email, suggesting wikis and similar schemes. I just don't have time to reply to them. If folks can't even get this right and post on Templot Club, what chance of correct information being posted on a wiki? It would be a nightmare, taking more of my time to edit and correct it than to write it myself in the first place. Utterly fed up. Martin.Hi Martin Why not change your email address, then no one can contact you apart from those to which you have given the new address to, DO NOT POST IT ON HERE. With regard to tutorials etc. delete all those which are not applicable I.E. all those pre 0.91c as there is no reason that anybody should not be on that or TDV. Just my ten pen'orth Cheers Phil PS. disable your PM link |
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| Last edited on 20 Dec 2011 17:08 by Phil O |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 17:12 from: Nicholas Geti
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I don't understand why you would feel the need to edit a Wiki site. So what if the information is wrong? There are enough users who would gladly correct any mistakes. New users would find out soon enough that something is wrong and start asking questions. It certainly is worth the try. Setting up the site should only take a few minutes. The main time spent would be deciding which one to use. There are many reviews in PC Magazine, and others, to help make a decision. I am not clear why one has to use the "Please use the line.....". Isn't this a Yahoo site? There is a line at the bottom of the page for replying by Yahoo. It is one click. I find there is more preamble/postamble text than the actual message in every item which makes each message harder to read. I am getting used to it but ... Nicholas Geti |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 17:28 from: Martin Wynne
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Nicholas Geti wrote:I am not clear why one has to use the "Please use the line.....". Isn't this a Yahoo site?Hi Nicholas, No it isn't. The Yahoo group is simply a searchable backup archive, containing also the pre-2007 email group messages. Since that date Templot Club has been a web forum separate from Yahoo. If you are receiving Templot Club emails from Yahoo, you can change your Yahoo group settings to "No Email." Then go to: http://85a.co.uk/forum/my_account.php?watched_forums=1 Tick the boxes for the forums from which you want to receive emails, and then click the Save button at the bottom. You will receive emails directly from Templot Club without the Yahoo delays and without the Yahoo junk at the bottom. But you must still click the link to reply. If you reply directly by email it will simply end up in my inbox instead of being posted on the forum. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 18:20 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Les G wrote: I also believe that it is time to call a moritorium on major forum contributions, [ valuable though they can be in the wider scheme] in favour of KISS - keeping it short and simple...Les I think you're right. Email systems have a habit of running away with things. It should be possible with some self-discipline to cut right back to bare questions which need answers, and to keep the answers concise. A lot of recent Templot messages I've just deleted without reading them; there's only so much anyone can take. Cheers Nigel |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 18:21 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi Martin My tuppence ha'penny's worth  The existing tutorials etc are not too far out of touch for 0.91c, although I appreciate that there are some significant differences, so I would be inclined to leave that as the release version until Templot 2 is better documented. Can you also make it a condition of purchase that users understand that the current online documentation is a little out of date, but they must come here to ask for help? And you don't need to reply instantly to every request for help! There's a déja vu feeling here... This may be controversial, but I had a feeling of foreboding when you made Templot 2 a free-for-all, or even made it available to users who hadn't really understood the basics. Unfortunately, people expect "big company" service these days even from a one-man band (I get that with the stuff I sell on eBay - some people seem to think I am eBay!) so there may be a view that as you've released it, you have to support it, whilst ignoring the great big yellow "Unfinished" flag and any other caveats! My understanding of the idea behind releasing the TDV was for users to help find bugs and to make suggestions, not to ask how to use it. Nope - I think that if I was in your position I would say that 0.91c is the current release, and Templot 2 is only to be used on the understanding that the user has at least grasped the basics of Templot on an earlier, better documented version. Call it a beta release - I think most people understand what that means. This might sound harsh, but at the moment you're being pulled this way and that - you have to draw a line somewhere. Maybe draw the line now with Templot 2 as it stands and start documenting it. I know it isn't finished and has some bugs, but Windows 7 isn't finished and has bugs, and that costs a darn sight more than Templot! As far as a Wiki goes, I can't help feeling that that will have the same effect as the beginner's tutorials. Someone will post something, someone else will edit it because they think there's a better way of doing it, or just a different way. That won't help anyone. Finally, walk away from Templot until the New Year! ...sorry about the ramble - have a good Christmas |
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posted: 20 Dec 2011 18:25 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Wynne wrote: Is it better to allow users to post a rash of "beginners tutorials", which while done with the best of intent do not properly cover the features of Templot2 or even 091c, and do not match each other? Leading to a mish-mash of help for new users of TDV and Templot2 which must surely cause more confusion than it cures?Martin No it isn't better. It would be hugely confusing. Time I think to draw a line, and only allow Templot2 documentation, as and when it can be produced. One product, one set of documentation; that's worth waiting for. Cheers Nigel |
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posted: 24 Dec 2011 15:43 from: Tony W
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Hi all. I tried to reply to this post a couple of days back, but for some reason it did not go through. When I wrote my beginner's guide to 0.91c my main consideration was that there were sufficient differences from 0.74b to make it worthwhile doing. There is more than enough coverage of the earlier versions without others adding to it. I see little point in supporting pre 0.91c (the current official release) versions as these are effectively obsolete although still as workable as they ever were. A plethora of beginner's guides really does nobody any favours. Although I still use 0.78e occasionally, that is my choice, but I would not expect any support for it from the forum other than that which already exists. I think other users who make a similar choice should also accept similar restrictions. It follows that I would accept similar limits of support for 0.91c when Templot 2 is officially launched. It makes no sense to expend precious time and effort in this way when it is so limited. Having said this, I am quite willing to update and expand my current version of the guide to cover Templot 2 once I have become familiar with it, if thought to be beneficial. Tony. |
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posted: 26 Dec 2011 13:06 from: AlanD click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Yes Tony, Please do! I have not made the move across to the TDV and when Templot2 is go I will appreciate all assistance Rgds, Aland |
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posted: 27 Dec 2011 14:12 from: sevenmil click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Martin Martin! stop this right now you will make yourself ill, concentrate on what you want to develop, Post in large letters that you will no longer answer any E-mails or Forum queries re Templot until further notice . Happy New Year My very best to you Peter |
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