Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 1960Diamond Crossing check rails not generated
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posted: 16 May 2012 00:50

from:

Andrew Fendick
 
Andover - United Kingdom

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When creating a diamond crossing the check rails where the two half diamonds meet are not generated if the V crossing angle is greater than 1:8.
I am using Templot Dev 2.05.b. OS is Windows 7 Ultimate 64 Bit on AMD Turion 64 X2 Mobile TL-60 processor. Gauge is set to EM 18.2mm.
I created a new template, REA B-8 Left hand turnout 10 Chains Radius. I then changed the V Crossing angle to 1:9. I then did tools > make simple crossover. Then template > convert turnout to half-diamond.
The check rails and gap that should be produced at the point where the two half diamonds would meet are not generated.
In the attached box file the two lower sets of track are from a 1:9 regular and generic turnout and have not produced the check rails, whereas the top one is 1:8 and has.

32_151949_370000000.png32_151949_370000000.png
Attachment: attach_1446_1960_DiamondCrossings.box 301
Last edited on 16 May 2012 00:53 by Andrew Fendick
posted: 16 May 2012 01:00

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Andrew,

Fixed K-crossings are not prototypically correct at angles flatter than 1:8, and would be extremely unreliable if modelled as such.

Switch-diamonds (movable K-crossings) are used instead, and Templot draws them as such, like this:

fb_movablek_dslip.jpgfb_movablek_dslip.jpg
© thanks to Mick Nicholson

An excellent picture from Mick Nicholson showing a flat-bottom double-slip with movable K-crossings.

Templot is drawing a switch-diamond instead (i.e. movable K-crossings) because that is what is required at this angle. Here are a couple of images to help explain:

switch_diamond_10bh.jpgswitch_diamond_10bh.jpg
© PWI

switch_diamond.jpgswitch_diamond.jpg
© PWI

regards,

Martin.

posted: 16 May 2012 01:06

from:

Andrew Fendick
 
Andover - United Kingdom

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Thanks very much for that information Martin. Sorry to have troubled you.

posted: 16 May 2012 07:08

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,

A small point but the timbering appears to be slightly different from Bullhead to Flatbottom. Does Templot correct this or is some timber manipulation called for?

posted: 16 May 2012 13:07

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Borg-Rail wrote:
A small point but the timbering appears to be slightly different from Bullhead to Flatbottom. Does Templot correct this or is some timber manipulation called for?
Hi Stephen,

Yes. Bullhead switch-diamonds have a single timber at the centre carrying both switch tips. Flat-bottom switch-diamonds have two separate timbers close together.

Templot draws the timbering accordingly, and has done since the half-diamond templates were first introduced in version 0.78.e

I think you could have easily answered this question yourself with a little experimenting. :)

There are some detailed notes about K-crossing timbering at real > timbering > half-diamond timbering > ? half-diamond timbering - help menu item. It's not straightforward.

Since the changes for irregular diamonds in Templot2, the timbering of short angle diamonds needs some further work. In the meantime if necessary use the shove timber functions to match your prototype.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 16 May 2012 18:34

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

Since the changes for irregular diamonds in Templot2, the timbering of short angle diamonds needs some further work. In the meantime if necessary use the shove timber functions to match your prototype.

I wonder if it would just be easier to switch off timbering for short angle diamonds?  The GWR used baulk timbers for less than 1:2, for instance, which I could never expect Templot to automatically generate.

I remember you said once that one reason for not having very short diamonds in Templot is that the timbering gets complex - not if it's turned off, it's not!  There would of course have to be a warning, and a way of turning them back on, but the very fact of that would be a subtle clue that the user is trying to do something unusual and is pretty much on their own.  You could then go down to 1:0.001 angles, maybe  :D (avoiding any "Divide by zero" errors along the way!!)

Cheers

posted: 17 May 2012 00:26

from:

Terry Flynn
 
Australia

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Martin,

I agree it is desirable not to make fixed K crossings above 1:8 for most model railway situations however there are many prototypes that used fixed K crossings larger than 1:8 such as the NSWGR. Is it possible to to have an option to allow fixed K crossings above 1:8 to cover all prototype possibilities. A suitable warning could be included about using the option.

Terry Flynn.

posted: 17 May 2012 01:39

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Terry Flynn wrote:
Is it possible to to have an option to allow fixed K crossings above 1:8 to cover all prototype possibilities.
Hi Terry,

Sure. Click the real > K-crossing options > fixed K-crossings menu option to override the automatic setting.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 17 May 2012 04:20

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
I remember you said once that one reason for not having very short diamonds in Templot is that the timbering gets complex - not if it's turned off, it's not!
Hi Paul,

Well yes and no. :)

I do feel that the current 1:1.5 limit* is the sensible minimum for the present generator algorithm. It will go shorter, but would need a knowledgeable user to understand what they are seeing and adjust things accordingly. There are check rail conflicts, truncated wing rails, and other artefacts to correct for. And the prototype varies so much that it's impossible for Templot to know what to do about them by itself.

I'm afraid a lot of my design decisions nowadays are based not on providing extra functionality but on minimizing support requests. You have only to look at this very topic to see how even the essential functions can confuse some users.

*was 1:2 in 091c.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 17 May 2012 22:25

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

It was worth mentioning!!  When someone wants to do this...

105_171719_120000000.png105_171719_120000000.png

...I think it's safe to say that Templot can never predict what is needed.
I'm afraid a lot of my design decisions nowadays are based not on providing extra functionality but on minimizing support requests.
Am I allowed to say that I think SketchBoard is extra functionality? :D 
You have only to look at this very topic to see how even the essential functions can confuse some users.
Yes - I guess you're plugging away at the Help pages at the moment!




posted: 18 May 2012 20:27

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
Hi Martin

It was worth mentioning!!  When someone wants to do this...

105_171719_120000000.png105_171719_120000000.png

...I think it's safe to say that Templot can never predict what is needed.
I'm afraid a lot of my design decisions nowadays are based not on providing extra functionality but on minimizing support requests.
Am I allowed to say that I think SketchBoard is extra functionality? :D 
You have only to look at this very topic to see how even the essential functions can confuse some users.
Yes - I guess you're plugging away at the Help pages at the moment!



At least it's not Retford, as the trackwork for that is mostly finished. :D

Cheers Phil
Last edited on 18 May 2012 20:28 by Phil O


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