Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 13 Jul 2012 05:23 from: Mark C
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Menu choice Output > Page Orientation / Origin>End-Run (or Side-Run) seems to have no effect when Trackpad > Page Outlines for PDF Export is selected. It works fine when Trackpad > Page Outlines for Printer is selected, however. style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"The only way to get the page outlines to change is to choose Output > Export a File (PDF...) and check Side-Run Pages under Export a Document (PDF):. You don't even have to actually create the document. Just clicking on the Create PDF... button changes the orientation on Trackpad. The orientation choice in the Output > Export a File (PDF...) menu choice seems redundant and confusing. It seems to me that it would be far more intuitive for the Output > Page Orientation / Origin > End-Run (or Side-Run) menu choice to control page border orientation for both printer and file export. Mark C |
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posted: 13 Jul 2012 21:52 from: Martin Wynne
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Mark C wrote: Menu choice Output > Page Orientation / Origin > End-Run (or Side-Run) seems to have no effect when Trackpad > Page Outlines for PDF Export is selected.Hi Mark, The orientation setting for PDF output is on the export dialog. This overrides the printer setting in the output menu: 2_131622_160000000.png  The PDF and image file exports are new features in Templot2. Previously the output menu was called the print menu, and applied only to the printed output. It was renamed output for Templot2 but not all the settings in that menu can apply to all outputs. The big difference here is that the printer is a real-world physical device with a physical paper size and physical printable area. The PDF engine is not so constrained -- it can create a document of any size you care to enter. The task of rendering that on paper takes place in the PDF reader program and not in Templot. Accordingly not all the printer adjustments are applicable. For example it is not possible to customize the trim margins in PDF output because the actual margins are determined by the printer settings in the PDF reader. And for image file exports, there are no trim margins at all. What all this means is that the output menu needs replacing with a new set of dialogs making clear which settings apply to which outputs. That's on my list of things to do, and has been for some time. I haven't given it a high priority because I believe most of the settings are self-explanatory and those which are not can safely be left on the defaults. The output settings also need to be added to the program preferences. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 14 Jul 2012 05:03 from: Mark C
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Martin, When I switch from "Page Outlines for Printer" to "Page Outlines for PDF output", I can see that the outlines change SIZE (more on this later). However, I don't understand what this has to do with page orientation. The confusion comes in the Output menu where you have a "Page Orientation / Origin" choice. This leads the user to believe that this controls whichever Page Outline choice is made in the Trackpad menu. Why can't the orientation selection in Output also change the PDF export dialog and vice versa? Then either would control the page outline display - problem solved. This is the way paper printing works, why not PDF? I have sent a trackplan directly to the printer (calibrated, btw) and then printed an exported PDF file of the exact same trackplan. When I compare them, the track gauge is enough different as to be unusable. Is there a way to make these match exactly, or is PDF not meant for printing of construction plans? Mark C |
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posted: 14 Jul 2012 08:02 from: Matt M.
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Hi Mark. PDF is for printing construction templates. I have printed a 30' layout plan at a professional printing house using it, (in four sections due to Adobe's very annoying size limits). All measurements were checked with a vernier calliper and found to be spot on. Recently also built a 7' long test track that using the transitional curve facility gradually curves down a 6' radius. for chassis testing. Built to Scale 7 using the template it is also spot on. Hope that answers part of your query? Regards, Matthew. |
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posted: 14 Jul 2012 08:37 from: Martin Wynne
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Mark C wrote:I have sent a trackplan directly to the printer (calibrated, btw) and then printed an exported PDF file of the exact same trackplan. When I compare them, the track gauge is enough different as to be unusable. Is there a way to make these match exactly, or is PDF not meant for printing of construction plans?Hi Mark, The default print setting in most PDF reader programs is fit to paper. To print accurate track templates you MUST change this to no scaling in the reader program print dialog. If you have large size PDFs printed at a digital copyshop, you must specifically ask for this (preferably 3 times to be sure  ).Also, there is no printer calibration function for PDF output (because the same file could be printed on several different printers). So if your printer needed a significant calibration correction, the printed PDF page from the same printer will be slightly different. But unless the printer is wildly out, it shouldn't be enough to make a noticeable difference in the track gauge. I will look again at the end-run/side-run settings. It is a very complex part of the code. The easiest solution is probably just to add the word "printed" to the menu captions. I don't want to link the settings in the code because eventually I want to create a separate dialog for the printer only. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 14 Jul 2012 20:34 from: Martin Wynne
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Martin Wynne wrote:For example it is not possible to customize the trim margins in PDF output because the actual margins are determined by the printer settings in the PDF reader.Hi Mark, That set me thinking, so I have made a slight change to the PDF export: 2_141358_330000000.png  With that new box ticked (the default), the entered dimensions refer to the page size between the red trim margins. This makes it much easier to have the trim margins aligned with the grid lines, and round-figure sizes for the trimmed pages. The margin widths are: left: 7mm right: 2mm top: 6mm bottom: 4.5mm This means that the actual document size (as shown in the PDF reader program) for the settings in the screenshot above would be larger at 270.5mm x 189mm. Those default margin widths can be adjusted for the printer output, but they are fixed for PDF. The actual visible margin for the PDF will be determined by the paper size and print settings in the PDF reader program. If the box is unticked, the page size settings refer to the full document as before, and the trimmed pages will be smaller to allow for the margins. This change will be in the next update. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 16 Jul 2012 15:14 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Mark, I have now re-arranged the output menu items to make clear which settings apply to the printer only: 2_161010_110000000.gif  Will be in the next update. Thanks for reporting this.  regards, Martin. |
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posted: 18 Jul 2012 05:30 from: Mark C
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Martin, This seems fine for the time being and I agree that ultimately there should be separate dialogs for Printing and for File Export. Each dialog would be devoted to settings that are relevant to only that function. This would simplify the Output menu where the first two choices could be links to the Printer and File Export dialogs. Any other choices in the Output menu would be for settings common to both printing and file export. As I see it, page orientation is something that would be common to both! Thus, I think page orientation should be shown in the Output menu and not in either the Printing or File Export dialogs. Then the page outlines choices in the Trackpad menu could be limited to just one check/no-check "Show Page Outlines" toggle and one "Page Outline Colour..." dialog link - much simpler. Here is what I would think is a very common work flow example... I've created a trackplan and before I print it to paper, I export it to PDF to view and check to be sure that everything is as I want it. If everything is OK, I would then have an archived version of the trackplan for future reference. Then I would print my trackplan to paper. Obviously, in this scenario, page orientation would be the same for both Print & Export. Frankly, I can't think of many situations where someone would want a different page orientation for Print than for File Export. Having page orientation in separate dialogs just seems to me like a superfluous complication for the user and for the programmer. I think it is far more simple and intuitive for the page outline orientation shown in Trackpad to be the orientation for any output. If the user wants to change the orientation for either output, they change the way it is displayed first. Mark C |
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posted: 18 Jul 2012 06:26 from: Mark C
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Martin, In Templot2, the page outlines are different sizes for Printer and PDF. Obviously, a printout of the outputed PDF file doesn't match the page sent directly to the printer. Thus, I can see why you can't have a universal page settings as the program wouldn't know which to display. However, I just did an experiment with Microsoft Publisher, another graphics program. In that program, you set paper size and margins in a universal Page Setup dialog. Then you have a choice to either Print to printer or export to PDF. I did both with a drawing I had created some time ago that fills the page right to the margins. After opening the exported PDF file I printed it and both printouts are absolutely identical! This is what I'm getting at. Why can't your program do the same thing? If it did, then you could do what I suggest in my previous message, ie. universal page settings. Mark C |
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posted: 18 Jul 2012 08:30 from: Martin Wynne
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Mark C wrote:However, I just did an experiment with Microsoft Publisher, another graphics program. In that program, you set paper size and margins in a universal Page Setup dialog. Then you have a choice to either Print to printer or export to PDF. I did both with a drawing I had created some time ago that fills the page right to the margins. After opening the exported PDF file I printed it and both printouts are absolutely identical!Hi Mark, I understand the point you are making, but the big difference is that programs such as Microsoft Publisher do not have a printer calibration function. If you want to create PDF output from Templot which is identical to the printed output, I would suggest using one of the many virtual printer PDF generator programs which are available, such as Win2PDF.* Templot will then see it as a printer, and you can calibrate it to match the calibration settings for your actual printer, and customize the trim margins to match. If you do that I would urge you please NOT to post the PDF file here or share it with anyone via your web site or anywhere else. Otherwise anyone printing it on a different printer will get an inaccurate result and will naturally believe that Templot produces inaccurate output. That is the reason the native PDF output in Templot does not have a calibration function -- the file cannot be linked to a specific printer, and if the file is shared with others many different printers will be used. The primary reason for including the native PDF output in Templot is as an alternative to the DXF output for printing on wide-format continuous roll paper. For that the traditional printer paper sizes do not apply, and it is better to set the document dimensions directly. As with DXF printing, any final correction needed can then be done in the PDF reader/printing software. *If you use the Nitro PDF Reader (free from http://nitroreader.com ), it includes an excellent free virtual printer PDF generator. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 18 Jul 2012 14:25 from: Mark C
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OK, I give! | ||
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posted: 19 Jul 2012 08:40 from: Alan Turner
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Mark C wrote: OK, I give! Resistance is futile! Alan |
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