Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 2258Track building publication
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posted: 14 Jul 2013 08:05

from:

SimonH
 
Launceston Tasmania - Australia

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Hi there,

So I've discovered that there is a huge difference in building soldered track, to glueing track in place with plastic chairs ect. I seem to have a number of places within each point that I'm not totally conviced are being properly held/supported by the plastic base plates I'm using.

Can any body recommend a "how too" publication that might give me some tips please.

Cheers

Simon Handby

posted: 14 Jul 2013 08:25

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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SimonH wrote:
Can any body recommend a "how to" publication that might give me some tips please.
Hi Simon,

This recent book by Geoff Jones contains lots of track building ideas:
106_121039_460000000.jpg106_121039_460000000.jpg

It's mainly for 2mm modellers but includes a lot of material applicable to all scales.

More details: topic 2112

regards,

Martin.

posted: 14 Jul 2013 09:38

from:

Dasatcopthorne
 
 

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SimonH wrote:
Hi there,

So I've discovered that there is a huge difference in building soldered track, to glueing track in place with plastic chairs ect. I seem to have a number of places within each point that I'm not totally conviced are being properly held/supported by the plastic base plates I'm using.

Can any body recommend a "how too" publication that might give me some tips please.

Cheers

Simon Handby
Hi Simon.

I use plastic chairs on ply sleepers.

Where gauge is critical - point blades, crossing V etc - I introduce a rivet or two. Another way is to replace the chair with a piece of 1mm copperclad. Solder to the rail and then superglue to the sleeper. (easier done on a ply sleeper).


Dave (in 16.2mm)

posted: 14 Jul 2013 11:24

from:

Richard_Jones
 
Heswall - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote
106_121039_460000000.jpg106_121039_460000000.jpg
What a nice photo of Shrewsbury - now there's inspiration for you...... (if you've got the space!)

best wishes

Richard

posted: 14 Jul 2013 14:26

from:

LSWRArt
 
Antibes - France

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Hi Simon
I am also new to track building, but found it best to use a piece of copperclad (or nickel silver strip) across the crossing V and the wing rails to hold it exactly to gauge.
I do not know if they are available in your scale, but I also found it useful to use proper check rail chairs to hold the check rail the correct distance from the running rail, but you could again use a piece of copperclad to keep the checkrail exactly to gauge.
Then I just cut the chairs in half and use them cosmetically where the copperclad is installed.

Question for Dave: Do you use a delayed action Superglue for fixing all your chairs to the ply sleepers? I found that the liquid which C&L supply for fixing plastic chairs to plastic sleepers had no strength on ply sleepers and another glue I used has also failed on one of my point blades.
Ideally the glue should allow a good many seconds for me to align everything with the roller gauges and it should not show up horribly shiny on my nicely stained plywood, where the chair has been pulled into position by the gauge.
What do you find best?
Thanks, Arthur

posted: 14 Jul 2013 16:15

from:

wcampbell23
 
Hamilton, Scotland - United Kingdom

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Hi Arthur

I have used both Plastic Weld and Butanone (the latter is that supplied by C&L) with great success on ply timbering. No issues with adhesion or leaving a mark on the stained surface. I used diluted Humbrol enamels to stain the timbers on my own layout.

Perhaps the problem may be the stain you have used to colour the ply - was it by any chance a varnish-based stain?

If so, it may leave a coating on the surface of the ply and this would give rise to the problems you have experienced.

For checkrail chairs in 7mm scale I use 4 bolt chairs with the inside of the chair trimmed back using a simple jig to leave 30 thou of the chair on the inside of the rail. The same trimmed chairs are used inside and outside of the checkrail. The chairs at the flared end of the checkrail are trimmed at a slight angle to give a good fit.

Regards.

Bill Campbell.

posted: 14 Jul 2013 22:55

from:

SimonH
 
Launceston Tasmania - Australia

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Evening All
I suppose the main area for concern was the check rails.
I'm using C&L base plates (OO) which are about as close as I can get without maunufacturing from scratch. The only way to get them close to the running rail was to cut the base plates down and then glue the rail to the half of the base plate that is left.
I've been using Loctite 406 which is a super glue and my local Loctite man suggested I run some fine wet and dry over the bottom of the rail, to rough it up a bit, but also that increases the surface area for the glue to bond to???
He further suggested that Loctite 435 might be a bit better in glueing to ply.
I notice the name Butanone in this thread. Something I've never used.
I take it that this is good N-S to plastic and then plastic to plywood (eg check rails)
My first ply sleepered point has not thrown itself to pieces yet, but it is only 24 hours old and only been looked at so far.

With lots of point work to go for the new layout, best to get as much info on board as possible.
Cheers
Simon handby

posted: 15 Jul 2013 09:02

from:

LSWRArt
 
Antibes - France

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Hi Simon
Butatone is a liquid adhesive, so I guess it slightly melts the plastic of the chair. It is really designed for glueing plastic chairs to plastic sleepers but, depending on the wood stain you use, it sometimes seems to work between the plastic chairs and wooden sleepers.
I suspect that it would not work between plastic chairs and metal rail.
How long does Loctite 406 give you to adjust the rail position before grabbing hard? Also, have you any idea what is the difference between 406 and 435 and why you would use one rather than the other?
We are lucky in 0 gauge that we can buy proper checkrail chairs, so I only glue the common crossing soldered strip to the sleepers. On all the other chairs the rail can slide through to allow for expansion and contraction. Obviously if you are using split chairs you have to glue the rail to these and the chair to the sleeper, but I would then make sure that the checkrail sleepers were not rigidly fixed to the underlay, or use foam underlay, to still allow for expansion and contraction of the rail.
Regars, Arthur

posted: 15 Jul 2013 09:35

from:

John Arkell
 
Tunbridge Wells - United Kingdom

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Butanone is a solvent not an adhesive; there is a difference. I have used Butanone between plastic chairs and plywood sleepers successfully the bond is formed by the solvent softening the base of the chair. The softened plastic is then forced into the woodgrain by light pressure and when the solvent evaporates the plastic resets but mechanically locked into the woodgrain. 

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"As there are no check rail chairs available in EM the method used is to have a check rail five chairs long. Three full chairs are put on the check rail and the detail cut off the top of the chair to allow them to slide under the running rail. The running rail is only fitted with two full chairs in the length opposite the checkrail and these are also modified to fit under the checkrail. The crossing flangeway gauge is used to set the check rail at the correct spacing and the five chairs glued down. Then five half chairs with keys are glued down at the outside where there are spaces (two on the check rail and three on the running rail.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"The alternative is to fit nickel silver strips to gauge the check rail correctly to the running rail and then use half chairs on the outside.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"Regards

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"John Arkell

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"Tunbridge Wells   

posted: 15 Jul 2013 09:43

from:

Dave Summers
 
Urchfont, Devizes - United Kingdom

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Simon

You could do worse than read this thread on RMWeb. David Siddall gives a blow-by-blow account of the trials and tribulations of building a 7mm scale turnout-in-a-bag. Don't let the scale bother you, the principles are the same. There are several other similar threads giving useful trackbuilding information and advice.

Cheers

Dave

posted: 15 Jul 2013 10:06

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi all

Arthur asked:
have you any idea what is the difference between 406 and 435 and why you would use one rather than the other?
I use both at work, and I've often extolled the virtues of 435 on this forum for track building.  The gist of it is that 406 is a very thin liquid that's formulated for plastics (and rubber), but does act as a good general purpose adhesive.  It whips into joints by capillary action very readily.  435 is a toughened adhesive, slightly more viscous than 406 but when used correctly produces a joint strength far in excess of that which is needed for our purpose, therefore no worries about joints failing - I've previously mentioned have to chisel remains of broken chairs off the rail if I've had to rework anything.  Neither really gives you any time to work.  Given the cost, I only buy one and I choose 435.

Incidentally, I mainly used 435 for gluing slide chairs to the rail sides, before using butanone to glue the chairs to the ply timbers.  Seems to give the best of both worlds, I think.  These days I'm using the Masokits system though, so no glue in sight!

Cheers

posted: 16 Jul 2013 09:08

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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John Arkell wrote:
 The crossing flangeway gauge is used to set the check rail at the correct spacing and the five chairs glued down.

Err NO. The check gauge must be used to set the check rail.

Alan

posted: 16 Jul 2013 11:52

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
The check gauge must be used to set the check rail.

That's right. Here's this diagram and notes again:  
2_010658_360000000.gif2_010658_360000000.gif

A is the check gauge. It is the most critical dimension in pointwork. If this dimension is too small, wheels running from left to right can hit the nose of the vee and very likely derail, or at least bump. If this dimension is too large, the wheel backs will bind or jam across the check and wing rails. To make sure the check gauge is correct, the check rail is always set using the check gauge tool from the opposite running rail.

B is the crossing flangeway gap. It's also important. If this dimension is too small, the wheel backs will bind or jam on the wing rail. If this dimension is too large, the gap in front of the nose of the vee will be too wide, and the wheels may drop into it with a bump. This gap is set using a small piece of metal shim called a crossing flangeway gauge shim.

C is the track gauge. It shouldn't be less than the specified dimension, but can be wider. It is often widened on sharply curved track to ease the running of long-wheelbase vehicles. The track gauge is normally set using roller gauge tools, or alternatively using a 3-point gauge tool, which automatically widens the track gauge on curves.

D is the check rail gap. The width of this gap doesn't matter a damn, providing it is wider than the wheel flanges. It's whatever you end up with after setting A and C correctly. The crossing flangeway gauge shim should not be used to set this gap.

But where the check rail is combined with a wing rail in complex formations (i.e. in parallel-wing V-crossings) D must be the same as B. Which in turn means that there cannot be any gauge-widening in such formations.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 17 Jul 2013 10:53

from:

SimonH
 
Launceston Tasmania - Australia

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Hi Arthur
The Loctite man got back to me today and as mentioned, 435 seems a little better in that it will with stand a
"shock" where as 406 will possible shatter. When challenged he suggested not hitting it with a hammer. I explained that that didnt happen all that often: oh dear?
My own test with both suggested no difference and you really had to bash said track to make it give at all.
Re setting time you need to have every thing where you need it as you have no wriggle room at all.
Cheers
Simon

posted: 17 Jul 2013 11:17

from:

richard_t
 
Nr. Spalding, South Holland - United Kingdom

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Hi

To get back to the original question - Iain Rice's trackwork book "An approach to building Finescale Track in 4mm" is still a good buy/read. Don't let the 4mm in the title put you off if you don't model 4mm.

The Norman Soloman DVD from Right Track is pretty good as well - except it's sold out and discontinued.

Hope that helps.

Richard.



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