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topic: 2273tandem turnouts again
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posted: 27 Jul 2013 12:26

from:

stuart1600
 
United Kingdom

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I've been following the guidance in Martin's reply to Richard T. back in 2011 to produce  the middle V-crossing for a tandem turnout; using Templot2.
Unfortunately I must be misreading something because I can't get this to work as it appears it should from the guidance notes.  I've also read the recent exchanges re:Brighton tandems, but still can't work out what I'm doing wrong.
I've positioned the peg using CTRL-F8 on the intersection of the two rails and put the notch on the peg.  I've created a new template with the crossing at 1:12 (it's obviously going to be much more than  that anyway), curviform, and gaunt options selected as per instructions.
I then peg this to the notch (using the *multiply key).  The notes then suggest using F6 to adjust the curvature to match the underlying template - but it's obvious that the control template is not aligned over the background template(s) at all and adjusting it's radius is not going to alter that.  But there is no mention of needing to use F8 to rotate the template to get an alignment - which is what leads me to conclude that I must have gone astray somewhere. 
What am I doing wrong, or misunderstanding here?  I'm sure there must be a simple explanation, but despite no end of playing around it still eludes me. :?
I've attached the box file with the three templates as they appear after "pegging onto notch".
I shall be very grateful if someone can explain what it is that I've got wrong in this process - but I will feel very guilty if someone spends their valuable time producing a nicely finished set of templates for me - I really do need to learn how to do this correctly myself. :D
Appreciate any help with this.
Kind regards,
Stuart


Attachment: attach_1633_2273_tandemturnout.box     220

posted: 27 Jul 2013 16:35

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Stuart,

I'm sorry you are having trouble with a tandem -- you are not the only one. :)

I need to write a much more detailed set of notes for tandems, containing about 59 ifs and buts. :(

When preparing the 3rd template, consideration needs to be given to the required hand. Generally when finding the intersection you should run the peg along the flatter radius of the two rails, and this should become the main road of the 3rd template. You can then see which hand will be required for the 3rd V-crossing. In your case this needs to be a RH template, whereas the one you are trying is LH. 

When doing CTRL-4 on the 3rd template take care not to inadvertently click/press this more than once (unless this is your real intention). To see the effect of multiple presses, try it on a dummy template. :)  CTRL-2 and CTRL-3 work the same way.

In suggesting the use of the V-crossing from a gaunt turnout for the middle V-crossing I was thinking mainly about double-sided tandems, i.e. where the middle road is the common main road.

In the case of a single-sided tandem such as yours, i.e. where one of the outer roads is the common main road, a gaunt turnout may not provide the required 3rd V-crossing -- indeed no type of turnout template may do so. This will depend on the type of V-crossing in the base turnouts, i.e. curviform or not.

With regular V-crossings in your base turnouts, your 3rd V-crossing requires a negative radius through the splice rail, and the way to do that is to use the V-crossing from an irregular half-diamond template rather than a turnout. One where the V-crossing is flatter than the K-crossing. The adjustments can then be made using the F9 and F10 mouse actions.

I've had a go at your tandem doing that, and arrived at a half-diamond with 1:15.95 for the V-crossing and 1:6.8 for the K-crossing:

2_271132_190000000.png2_271132_190000000.png

.box file attached below. I have done some preliminary customizing on the check rails. :)

Breaking off now because a thunderstorm is threatening and I need to disconnect the ADSL.

regards,

Martin.
Attachment: attach_1634_2273_stuart_tandem.box     265

posted: 27 Jul 2013 22:03

from:

stuart1600
 
United Kingdom

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Martin,
As always your very quick response is much appreciated.
Haven't had chance to look at your suggestions in detail, but will do so first thing tomorrow....
Regards,
Stuart

posted: 28 Jul 2013 00:00

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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Hi Stuart. Martin is absolutely correct. It is all to easy to select the wrong combination, the Peg for the notch can go on either of two rails, a left or right hand Turnout for the overlay and it is also possible to have the ctrl-4 peg aligned with either the main road or turnout road making a total of 8 possible all told  (of which I think probably 2 will give workable results) and this I think is a source of much confusion, I still get it wrong sometimes and have to go back to the original two templates and try again.
Inspite all the improvements / additions Martin has added to Templot over the years this still seems to be the greatest stumbling block for many people, and I really don't see an easy way to resolve it as there are so many permutations of Tandem turnouts that automating the process (as has been done so spectacularly for irregular Diamonds) is not a realistic option. Whilst it is possible to lay down a set of basic principles the different types with the third crossing in between the running lines and outside the running lines need slightly different approaches, as also do Three thows, so one standard set of instructions isn't realistically an option. I have thought more than once of trying to put together a set of steps explaining my approach as it differs in a number of ways from Martin's, but have found many of the snags Martin undoubtedly has.
Tony W.

posted: 28 Jul 2013 08:52

from:

stuart1600
 
United Kingdom

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Martin,
Now had chance to take a closer look at your solution.
Fascinating!  Hadn't occurred to me to use a half-diamond as the source of the middle V-crossing, nor indeed that part of the problem came from the underlying turnouts being 'regular' types.  I feel like I have learnt a good deal about pointwork design beyond solving a specific problem - so a very big thank you for your time on this.
As you say, the peg may well have been on the "wrong" position 4, as I hadn't used CTRL-4 because the gaunt option sets that automatically.  My mistake was in not realising that those instructions were for a double-sided tandem, and my limited knowledge of PW principles meant that I hadn't in any case appreciated the difference it makes when both turnout roads are on the same side - I do now :D
I now also understand the significance of the underlying turnouts being regular type - which prompted me to think that they don't have to be.  I'm assuming that there is nothing unprototypical about using curviform crossings in such a formation - the two turnout roads are sidings.
So I changed them both to curviform, which also enables an increase in the crossing angles to 1:9 and 1:7, and larger turnout radii as a bonus.  I could now create the middle-V from a LH turnout curved to match the turnout radius of the B9 which was straightforward to align over the base turnout and used CTRL-F6 to slide it into position - remembering (at the second attempt  :roll: ) to put the peg on 4 before using F9 to adjust the middle crossing angle.  This seemed like a simple procedure given my limited PW knowledge and might therefore be more appropriate for Templot beginners. 
In any event, I now have a better understanding of the principles involved which will increase my chances of being able to work out solutions to future problems....
I can also see how trying to write instructions for tandems is impossible given the almost infinite variety of combinations - which makes understanding the basic principles all the more useful.
Again, many thanks for your very informative help.
Kind regards,
Stuart

posted: 28 Jul 2013 09:04

from:

stuart1600
 
United Kingdom

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Tony,
Always reassuring to know that it's not just me with my limited knowledge of pointwork design who find somethings confusing.  And great to have this forum as an opportunity to enhance that knowledge courtesy of those of you who have a much better understanding of turnout construction.  Thanks for your contribution.
Kind regards,
Stuart

posted: 28 Jul 2013 13:56

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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Hi Stuart. You will now need to adjust the length of the turnout for the third crossing using "Do > Blank up to V-crossing" and adjust the blanking length with ctrl+F3 if necessary. You can adjust the overall length with the F4 key.  You now have the timbering to sort out via the shove timbers option Shift+F10. Use the timbering of the third crossing as these will be spaced correctly for that crossing. You will need to extend the length to match the underlying templates and store it, select the underlying templates then blank out the duplicate timbers  It is then a case of repeating this process for both the underlying templates to end up with one set of timbers for the resultant formation. NB always use the timbers under each crossing where possible as these are fixed in their spacing by the special crossing chairs on the real thing. This is where things can get interesting at times as conflicts can occur if the crossings get too close together and the timbers spacings won't suit both in the middle. I have known occasions where I this has resulted in a complete redesign to solve the problem.
Tony.

posted: 29 Jul 2013 20:19

from:

stuart1600
 
United Kingdom

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Tony,
Thanks for your further advice.  I recall having read elsewhere about the timbering at crossings being best left as Templot shows it, so that certainly would have been my starting point.  I note your comment that timbering can sometimes prove difficult or impossible.  In this particular instance if necessary I suspect I could replace the tandem with two separate turnouts - but that might feel a bit like throwing in the towel :( 
Still, this is at early planning stage and an awful lot else can change before any wheels roll through a point, tandem or otherwise....
It's been very interesting to discover the solution to what I had perceived as a problem.  Thanks for your assistance with that.
Happy modelling!
Stuart

posted: 30 Jul 2013 09:59

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Last edited on 30 Jul 2013 10:02 by Alan Turner
posted: 30 Jul 2013 10:16

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
In the diagram above just how exactly do you access the centre road (without the wheel having to slice through a rail)?
Hi Alan,

Stuart specifically asked that someone should not do all the work for him. So I left the partial templates unfinished for him to split out.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 30 Jul 2013 23:33

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Tony W wrote:
In spite all the improvements / additions Martin has added to Templot over the years this still seems to be the greatest stumbling block for many people, and I really don't see an easy way to resolve it as there are so many permutations of Tandem turnouts that automating the process (as has been done so spectacularly for irregular Diamonds) is not a realistic option.
Hi Tony,

It might be possible to automate something, at least as far as finding the intersection for the 3rd crossing and the required crossing angle. The maths is certainly doable -- I've been experimenting a bit more today.

The greater difficulty is in creating a user interface for it, as was also the case with the irregular diamonds. At present we don't have a means of highlighting individual rails within a background template, which is necessary so that a user can specify which two rails are intersecting at the 3rd crossing.

Something is needed, because it's clear that tandem turnouts are a stumbling block for many.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 31 Jul 2013 09:15

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

It might be possible to automate something, at least as far as finding the intersection for the 3rd crossing and the required crossing angle.

I think that just finding the intersection would be handy so that the FP can be positioned accurately.  I know it can be done by zooming in, but not if there are background picture shapes - zooming in too much just freezes my computer.  Finding the crossing angle would be a bonus, but then you have the complication if both roads are curved, in the same direction or opposite directions - I can see that bit getting complicated!

Cheers

posted: 31 Jul 2013 09:45

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
I know it can be done by zooming in, but not if there are background picture shapes - zooming in too much just freezes my computer.
Hi Paul,

Zooming in over picture shapes is vastly improved if you temporarily turn off the transparent option (if you are using it).

Alternatively you can temporarily hide the background shapes entirely -- trackpad > trackpad background options > hide background shapes menu option.

You don't usually need the background shapes while adjusting check rails, timber shoving, and similar final tasks such as this on tandems. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 31 Jul 2013 10:07

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin
Alternatively you can temporarily hide the background shapes entirely -- trackpad > trackpad background options > hide background shapes menu option.
That sounds like one I need to remember - thanks!  I must admit that, when I remember, I do it by deleting all the background shapes (having already saved them) then reloading them afterwards.

Time I took another browse through the menus :D

posted: 31 Jul 2013 10:40

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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Hi Paul. You are probably aware of this anyway, but I find it very useful to hide the background shapes before zooming in close using the Trackpad > trackpad background options > hide background shapes. This reduces the processor loading considerably at high magnification. They can easily be restored by turning them back on with the show background option.
Tony W.
Edit - I just knew Martin would get in first !!!!!
Last edited on 31 Jul 2013 10:43 by Tony W
posted: 31 Jul 2013 11:07

from:

David R
 
Hatfield Heath - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
The greater difficulty is in creating a user interface for it, as was also the case with the irregular diamonds. At present we don't have a means of highlighting individual rails within a background template, which is necessary so that a user can specify which two rails are intersecting at the 3rd crossing.

Just my tuppence worth re a possible user interface:

Do... menu item
Make tandem or 3-way...
Instruction to Select two background templates.
Show a dialog with a radio-button list for each of the selected background templates:
  main stock rail,
  main switch/closure/point rail,
  turnout stock rail,
  turnout switch/closure/splice rail. 
Highlight the relevant rail(s) as the radio buttons are selected. 
When an intersection occurs show it on-screen and enable the "OK" button.

Then do the maths and create the new crossing.

Must get back to work now!

Dave R
Last edited on 31 Jul 2013 11:09 by David R
posted: 31 Jul 2013 11:29

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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David R wrote:
Instruction to Select two background templates.
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the ideas, but I'm afraid that's impossible and gives me the screaming habdabs just to imagine what it would involve. :shock:

Any automation will have to involve one background template, and the control template (as for all the other similar functions).

Even for that we need a mechanism to select and show the required rail on the background template.

Several functions and menu items already refer to the "crossing rail" or "stock rail", etc. I know which rail is which, but I suspect quite a few users don't. I think it would be helpful to highlight individual rails when using these functions, so I'm looking at a general means to do that.

Of course it would render several screenshots and videos even more out of date -- a powerful disincentive to making any changes. :(

regards,

Martin.

posted: 31 Jul 2013 13:27

from:

David R
 
Hatfield Heath - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Thanks for the ideas, but I'm afraid that's impossible and gives me the screaming habdabs just to imagine what it would involve. :shock:

Just trying to pass on some ideas from a user's perspective. 

I'll agree with the "one background and the control template" but as I'm not allowed to install Templot here at work I was trying to do it all from memory!  Still think that the remainder of my post has its merits, even if impossible to implement (at the moment...), and highlighting individual rails on background templates is at the core of it.

Unfortunately you're the only one who knows how it works and what's possible and what's difficult to do and what's impossible to do.

Happy to help (brain-storming, alpha-testing etc) if needed.

Dave R

posted: 31 Jul 2013 13:59

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Dave,

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. :)

On further thought, it is necessary only to specify the rail for the control template. In a viable tandem there is only one other rail intersection, so Templot can simply search for any intersection with any of the rails in the background template. This would make the user interface much simpler, since we can already specify a rail in the control template by putting the peg on it. I will look at highlighting whichever rail the peg is on as a general feature, and change those menu options to a dialog window (at the expense of yet further demands on the Windows system resources).

regards,

Martin.

posted: 31 Jul 2013 14:25

from:

David R
 
Hatfield Heath - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
In a viable tandem there is only one other rail intersection, so Templot can simply search for any intersection with any of the rails in the background template. This would make the user interface much simpler, since we can already specify a rail in the control template by putting the peg on it.

Or also insist that the peg on the background template is also on the required "intersection rail" if that makes the programming easier at the expense of the user interface.

Just thoughts, you know the product best.

Dave R

posted: 31 Jul 2013 16:23

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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All this starts to sound very interesting - do I detect that this thinking "almost" opens up the possibility of inserting a crossing at the intersection of two rails? [or at least nearly that...]

If this were doable, it would seem to open up a million possibilities!!!

Just to be able to select [and do something with] an individual rail on a background template would be really useful!

Don't worry about the manuals and videos Martin, this sounds much more interesting!!

Best wishes,

Howard.

posted: 31 Jul 2013 17:47

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
All this starts to sound very interesting - do I detect that this thinking "almost" opens up the possibility of inserting a crossing at the intersection of two rails? [or at least nearly that...]

If this were doable, it would seem to open up a million possibilities!!!
Hi Howard,

You can already do that with plain tracks. :)

See screen 5 at:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?fit_turnout_to_existing_curves.htm

Just to be able to select [and do something with] an individual rail on a background template would be really useful!
What did you have in mind that you can't do by copying it to the control and then storing again?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 31 Jul 2013 18:10

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
You can already do that with plain tracks. :)

What did you have in mind that you can't do by copying it to the control and then storing again?

Martin.
Hi Martin and thanks for this.

However, I had in mind being able to select any two rails and inserting  a V or K crossing where they intersect. Quite a long way from putting a whole point in plain track I would have to say:(  My thinking is that this would reduce the need for partial templates in complex formations.

Re selecting and manipulating individual rails, I had in mind being able to "blank" an individual rail rather than a whole template.

Hope that is a bit less ambiguous if no less ambitious:D

Best wishes,

Howard.



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