Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 280Totally odd stuff Gn15
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posted: 9 Dec 2007 16:01

from:

Richard Morton
 
Warminster - Ontario Canada

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Hello all, I know , I know it has been what 6 months or more?? well I'm back at the application seeing if I can make heads or tails of it. And ya  Martin you are correct us Corel Draw types and Photoshop ppl are totally lost in learning this thing :)

Now here's the thing I got bit by an odd bug modeling industrial rail or sometimes refered to as trams. Modeled in Gn15 so one would use standard HO or 16.5 MM trackage but modeling in 1:24 or 1:22.5 Scale.  The Concept is rather attractive actually you are afforded extreamly stub switches and tight turns so a layout can be had in a very very small area. Some of you may be aware of this trend in the modeling area but it's totally new to me.

Now my main question is can some one help me sort out some switches as in making them correct? I have some base data collected such as average length of a switch and the two  almost standard radius's for curves.?

I have tried to create a custom gauge in my templot but got lost or was it confused :? I did get a stuby sorta switch out of the attempt though :cool:

So I guess I'm saying at this point a very loud "HELP":)
Attachment: attach_176_280_Templot.jpg 1308

posted: 9 Dec 2007 20:14

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Richard Morton wrote:
Now here's the thing I got bit by an odd bug modeling industrial rail or sometimes refered to as trams. Modeled in Gn15 so one would use standard HO or 16.5 MM trackage but modeling in 1:24 or 1:22.5 Scale.  The Concept is rather attractive actually you are afforded extreamly stub switches and tight turns so a layout can be had in a very very small area. Some of you may be aware of this trend in the modeling area but it's totally new to me.

Hi Richard,

Gn15 is new to me too. :) Can you clarify your prototype? Are you modelling a typical narrow-gauge railway (in this case very narrow) in G-scale?

Or making a G-scale model of a 15" miniature railway such as:

http://www.ravenglass-railway.co.uk

Perhaps the same question can be asked in a different way -- are you using G-scale wheels and rails, closing them in to 16.5mm gauge? Or are you using standard H0 wheels and rails?

It makes a big difference to the finished appearance of the track, because of the width of the rails and flangeway gaps, and the size of the timbers (ties).

In the former case you might produce something like this:

gn15_9ft_65.pnggn15_9ft_65.png

Is that something like what you are asking for?

In the UK and Templot, G-scale is called "No. 3 Gauge" and you can find it in Templot in the standard list: 2.5" track gauge, 13.5mm/ft (1:22.58) scale. It's exactly half of the model engineer's No. 5 Gauge (5 inch track gauge):

gauge3.pnggauge3.png

After which you can change the track gauge, timber (tie) sizes etc., to whatever the Gn15 variant needs.

The shortest standard switch in Templot is the GWR 9ft curved, as you found. Even with that the very narrow gauge means that the V-crossing (frog) falls within the switch itself, and some closure timbering needs to be omitted.

Ideally you need to create a custom switch* to fit. If you let me know some information about Gn15, such as typical rail width, flangeway gap, etc. I can help you further, but at present I'm in unknown territory. :(

*A "switch" in the UK and Templot means only the moving points section, NOT an entire turnout.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 10 Dec 2007 03:00

from:

Simon Dunkley
 
Oakham - United Kingdom

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Gn15 is generally "G" scale (it tends to be a bit variable) suing 00/H0 mechanisms.

For a taster, try this:

http://www.gn15.info/

Or this:

http://hometown.aol.com/Gn15modeler/index.html

It has been around for a few years.

Simon

posted: 10 Dec 2007 03:32

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Simon Dunkley wrote:
Gn15 is generally "G" scale (it tends to be a bit variable) suing 00/H0 mechanisms.

For a taster, try this:

http://www.gn15.info/

Or this:

http://hometown.aol.com/Gn15modeler/index.html

It has been around for a few years.
Hi Simon,

Thanks for the links. Since writing earlier I found the gn15.info site. It's all new to me! :) Another mystery -- how and why did Gauge 3 get renamed as G ?:?

Gn15 appears to be mainly industrial and contractor's railways using very light flat-bottom rail. Code 100 FB rail seems popular, but at 13.5mm/ft that scales to a rail only 2.1/4" high or about 15lbs/yd!

0 gauge FB code 143 rail would be a better option, scaling to 3.1/4" high, which is around 33 lbs/yd (somewhere between BS-30R and BS-35R sections), so still a very light rail.

Anyway, I can now scheme something for Richard based on BS-35R rail top (1.3/4" wide). The flangeway is still a mystery -- Peco 1.4mm flangeways scale up to only 1.1/4" which I suspect is under-scale for such contractor's railways.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 10 Dec 2007 08:09

from:

Richard Morton
 
Warminster - Ontario Canada

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Hey there Simon and Martin thank you both for replying and to Simon for attempting to help explain what I'm trying :) I had a great post going but it buggered up and got lost :( so I'll re try.



edit:

Text and image removed at the request of the copyright owner.

For reference it can be found in "RCL Narrow Gauge Handbook" by Roy C Link -- 1994.

See: http://rclpublications.co.uk




posted: 10 Dec 2007 08:28

from:

Richard Morton
 
Warminster - Ontario Canada

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you can see by the images of the switches that they are very very short and very tight in the turn radius. this is what I am attempting to replicate. So any help or advise will be most welcome, I guess my main problem is I am a model railroader not a model engineer. hence the lack of understanding of chain lengths and such :?

posted: 10 Dec 2007 09:30

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Templot User
 
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----- from Andy Reichert -----

For the 13 ft radius turnouts, you could use the ORR HO US tram turnouts and crossings in Code 100. See the Orr section on Trolleyville.com

A UK M/F, Tramalan, has done copies in white metal. I think there is web site of the same name.

Both are girder rail, but then you probably need continuous guard rails at those radii anyway.

Andy

http://www.proto87.com

posted: 10 Dec 2007 10:25

from:

Richard Morton
 
Warminster - Ontario Canada

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Templot User wrote:
----- from Andy Reichert -----

For the 13 ft radius turnouts, you could use the ORR HO US tram turnouts and crossings in Code 100. See the Orr section on Trolleyville.com

A UK M/F, Tramalan, has done copies in white metal. I think there is web site of the same name.

Both are girder rail, but then you probably need continuous guard rails at those radii anyway.

Andy

http://www.proto87.com
Thank you Andy I'll look that up and I also totally gapped your site as well :) Oh oh there goes my paypal account again lol.

posted: 10 Dec 2007 16:43

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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John Brighton used to have a link to some information published by Tho's Ward concerning Industrial railway track. Web site: http://www.steamlinesheffield.biz/

Alan

posted: 10 Dec 2007 17:19

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
John Brighton used to have a link to some information published by Tho's Ward concerning Industrial railway track. Web site: http://www.steamlinesheffield.biz/
Hi Alan,

I do have an original copy of Tommy Ward's 'Rails and Rail Accessories' catalogue dated May 1960, should anyone need data extracted from it.

Regards

Brian Lewis

Carrs -- C+L Finescale.

http://www.finescale.org.uk

posted: 10 Dec 2007 17:22

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Templot User
 
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----- from Andy Reichert -----

Alan Turner wrote:
John Brighton used to have a link to some information published by Tho's Ward concerning Industrial railway track. Web site: http://www.steamlinesheffield.biz/
There's actually a book on industrial rwys! I will have to see where I put my copy to get the title, etc.

Andy

posted: 10 Dec 2007 17:48

from:

rodney_hills
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
(snipped)
Hi Simon,

Thanks for the links. Since writing earlier I found the gn15.info site. It's all new to me! :) Another mystery -- how and why did Gauge 3 get renamed as G ?:?
Martin,

It didn't.

As you say, Gauge 3 is 2 1/2" or 57mm (SG), scale 17/32"/ft (approx 1:22.6)

Gauge 1 is 1 3/4". or 45mm (SG), scale 10mm/ft (approx 1:30) or 3/8"/ft (1:32) 

'G' was originally (1960s) narrow-gauge using Gauge 1 track to represent metre gauge, with a scale of 1:22.5, made by Lehmann in Germany (Lehmann Gross Bahn = LGB).

As it happened there already existed Gauge 3 (SG) to almost exactly the same scale.

Once 'G' got exported to other parts of the world........
If your prototype isn't metre gauge, just change the scale to suit the gauge.

Since most USA NG is 3', the scale becomes 15mm/ft, approx 1:20.3. (1:20.32)

Once you've build 3'g stuff to 1:20.3 and you want to build SG to the same scale, invent a new gauge - four-foot eight-and-a-half at 1:20.3 is 2.78something inches, around 71mm.

(Now NO connection with British Gauge 3 SG!)

"Proto:20.32" - http://www.nmra.org/standards/S-1_1ProtoScale.html

or

"F" - http://www.nmra.org/standards/S-1_2StandardScale.html

The 3' NG gets called officially: Proto:20.32n3 or Fn3 respectively.

In practice, the moniker 'G-scale' gets used to cover this range of scales for both SG and NG.

You then have to look closely to see what full-size gauge is being represented, as unlike with most scales there's probably a majority of 3ft/metre gauge users over SG users. 

In UK, 'G' tends to refer to only NG: http://www.g-scale-society.co.uk/

Regards,

Rodney

posted: 10 Dec 2007 18:46

from:

rodney_hills
 
United Kingdom

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rodney_hills wrote:
As you say, Gauge 3 is 2 1/2" or 57mm (SG), scale 17/32"/ft (approx 1:22.6)
Oops, brain error, not 57mm, 63.5mm !

BTW - to add, one does occasionally come across Gauge 1 SG being confusingly referred to as 'G' or even 'G scale' presumably because it also uses a gauge of 1 3/4" / 45mm ;-(

Regards, Rodney

posted: 10 Dec 2007 23:51

from:

Richard Morton
 
Warminster - Ontario Canada

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Alan Turner wrote:
John Brighton used to have a link to some information published by Tho's Ward concerning Industrial railway track. Web site: http://www.steamlinesheffield.biz/

Alan
Thank you Alan but the track link seems to be dead now :(

posted: 11 Dec 2007 00:12

from:

Richard Morton
 
Warminster - Ontario Canada

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rodney_hills wrote:
Martin Wynne wrote:
(snipped)
Hi Simon,

Thanks for the links. Since writing earlier I found the gn15.info site. It's all new to me! :) Another mystery -- how and why did Gauge 3 get renamed as G ?:?
Martin,

It didn't.

As you say, Gauge 3 is 2 1/2" or 57mm (SG), scale 17/32"/ft (approx 1:22.6)

Gauge 1 is 1 3/4". or 45mm (SG), scale 10mm/ft (approx 1:30) or 3/8"/ft (1:32) 

'G' was originally (1960s) narrow-gauge using Gauge 1 track to represent metre gauge, with a scale of 1:22.5, made by Lehmann in Germany (Lehmann Gross Bahn = LGB).

As it happened there already existed Gauge 3 (SG) to almost exactly the same scale.

Once 'G' got exported to other parts of the world........
If your prototype isn't metre gauge, just change the scale to suit the gauge.

Since most USA NG is 3', the scale becomes 15mm/ft, approx 1:20.3. (1:20.32)

Once you've build 3'g stuff to 1:20.3 and you want to build SG to the same scale, invent a new gauge - four-foot eight-and-a-half at 1:20.3 is 2.78something inches, around 71mm.

(Now NO connection with British Gauge 3 SG!)

"Proto:20.32" - http://www.nmra.org/standards/S-1_1ProtoScale.html

or

"F" - http://www.nmra.org/standards/S-1_2StandardScale.html

The 3' NG gets called officially: Proto:20.32n3 or Fn3 respectively.

In practice, the moniker 'G-scale' gets used to cover this range of scales for both SG and NG.

You then have to look closely to see what full-size gauge is being represented, as unlike with most scales there's probably a majority of 3ft/metre gauge users over SG users. 

In UK, 'G' tends to refer to only NG: http://www.g-scale-society.co.uk/

Regards,

Rodney
It kinda hard to explain how Gn15 came about.  Here are some links as to how it gets used alot http://carendt.us/  Micro/Small Layouts or http://hometown.aol.com/Gn15modeler/ but what you'll find most of the time is ppl creating whimsical models of things like sugar cane plantations or mining operations as in the mine itself not simply the exterior tipple or crusher.  What Gn15 affords the modeler is the ability to be very exact with details due to the large scale being 1:24 or 1:22.5 being the typical two scales tossed around the Gn15 community. and the small size of using the HO guage track, so it becomes a blend really of "G" and "HO" in some ways and that can get confusing.

My main issue is if i attempt to be true to prototype Templot returns with errors saying hay there twit that just can't be... :) but the truth is in this model format we are using very short wheel bases things like mining cars and such so it is very possible to have a almost 90 deg corner lol think of it as modeling an amusment park mine car ride and you get the idea only differance being is we are not moving at high speeds.

Regards
Richard
Last edited on 13 Dec 2007 10:29 by Richard Morton
posted: 15 Dec 2007 09:03

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Richard,

I have now had a play at producing GN15 track templates. An exercise in "Extreme Temploteering" :)

I'm still much in the dark, but I've set the rail-top at 1.5" wide, track gauge and flangeway as for H0, scale as for Gauge 3 at 13.5mm/ft, rail lengths at 6ft with timbers (ties) 30" x 6" at 24" centres. For the curve segment I set a prototype radius of 137.5" (11'-5.1/2") (centre-line) giving exactly 30 degrees of turn for a 6ft length.

The turnout has a custom curved switch with 4ft long points, the heels (pivots) are on timber T3 in the screenshot. I tried to get the best match to the substitution radius of 137.5", which ended up with a curviform crossing (frog) angle of 1:2.08 (RAM) and a turnout radius of 147mm (5.8").

The gauge is so small in relation to the scale that I needed to reduce the calculation step size in the generator expert settings. The F7 snapping proximity setting also needs reducing.

Here are a couple of screenshots and the printed templates. The grid on the first screenshot is in prototype feet. Let me know if this is something approaching what you are looking for and I will upload a .box file.

gn15_1.pnggn15_1.png

gn15_print.pnggn15_print.png


This last screenshot is just a bit of fun with the F7 snapping -- it took only a couple of minutes to produce this nonsense: :)

gn15_2.pnggn15_2.png

The grid there is in model inches. All that in Gauge 3 in 21 inches! It's all a far cry from discussing P4 on E4um earlier today! :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 Dec 2007 10:05

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Templot User
 
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----- from Andy Reichert -----

Martin Wynne wrote:
I have now had a play at producing GN15 track templates.
Looks very familiar - just like the old 50's Hornby 0 gauge clockwork track!

Andy

posted: 15 Dec 2007 10:15

from:

Richard Morton
 
Warminster - Ontario Canada

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Amazing Martin simply fantastic. that looks so close to what i need it's not funny. I'm pleased to hear you joined the Gn15 forums it has some very talented people there. I know you have several times questioned my desire to use your application mainly due to my ability to use Corel Draw but aside from not wanting to conceed to saying a blew the money I spent on your software. It's more that I actually see the value it serves and I truly want to understand it and to be able to use it.

And no that was not a blatent attempt at ass kissing :D


posted: 15 Dec 2007 19:17

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Andy Reichert wrote: 
Looks very familiar - just like the old 50's Hornby 0 gauge clockwork track!

Don't be silly. :) It's based on proper prototype track. :) See:

Decauville40cm.jpgDecauville40cm.jpg

Thanks to Steve Bennett for the pic. Image linked from, and more about it, at:

http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?p=44072#44072

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 Dec 2007 21:00

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Very interesting. You will note that the sleepers don't project beyond the rail.

OK I just know this is going to start somthing off but what is 16mm scale?

Slaters et-al seem to use that for large narrow gauge.

Alan
Last edited on 15 Dec 2007 21:11 by Alan Turner
posted: 16 Dec 2007 03:28

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
OK I just know this is going to start somthing off but what is 16mm scale?
It is a scale that was started many years ago to model 2 foot gauge prototypes on 32mm (0 gauge) track.   It has now become the 'standard' scale for large scale narrow gauge models.   Others use 45mm gauge to represent wider narrow gauges.     The scale can wiggle about a bit if you want to do accurate scale/gauge models on 32mm or 45mm gauge track - e.g. 14mm scale on 32mm gauge for 2' 6" gauge and 15mm scale on 32mm gauge for 2' 3" gauge.

There is a Yahoo group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/16mmngm/

Jim.

posted: 27 Feb 2008 02:53

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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I wrote a couple of months ago:
I have now had a play at producing GN15 track templates. An exercise in "Extreme Temploteering" :)

I've set the rail-top at 1.5" wide, track gauge and flangeway as for H0, scale as for Gauge 3 at 13.5mm/ft, rail lengths at 6ft with timbers (ties) 30" x 6" at 24" centres. For the curve segment I set a prototype radius of 137.5" (11'-5.1/2") (centre-line) giving exactly 30 degrees of turn for a 6ft length.

The turnout has a custom curved switch with 4ft long points, the heels (pivots) are on timber T3 in the screenshot. I tried to get the best match to the substitution radius of 137.5", which ended up with a curviform crossing (frog) angle of 1:2.08 (RAM) and a turnout radius of 147mm (5.8").

The gauge is so small in relation to the scale that I needed to reduce the calculation step size in the generator expert settings. The F7 snapping proximity setting also needs reducing.

This screenshot is just a bit of fun with the F7 snapping -- it took only a couple of minutes to produce this nonsense: :)

gn15_2.pnggn15_2.png

The grid there is in model inches.

I've now had a request for the .box file for this, so here it is attached below.

regards,

Martin.
Attachment: attach_239_280_gn15_crazy.box 498

posted: 28 Feb 2008 12:52

from:

George Harris
 
United Kingdom

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Jim Guthrie wrote:
Alan Turner wrote:
OK I just know this is going to start somthing off but what is 16mm scale?
It is a scale that was started many years ago to model 2 foot gauge prototypes on 32mm (0 gauge) track.   It has now become the 'standard' scale for large scale narrow gauge models.   Others use 45mm gauge to represent wider narrow gauges.     The scale can wiggle about a bit if you want to do accurate scale/gauge models on 32mm or 45mm gauge track - e.g. 14mm scale on 32mm gauge for 2' 6" gauge and 15mm scale on 32mm gauge for 2' 3" gauge.

There is a Yahoo group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/16mmngm/

Jim.

Hi Jim, Alan

You've probably noticed that there is considerable variation in the scales and gauges under this umbrella which is the subject of much discussion at present in the 16mmNGModellers Association as a whole. It also includes 7/8ths:1ft (1:13.5) modelling which is very common in the US on 45mm track. Monster stock with proper boilers on a very narrow gauge. There is also the very popular Irish NG railway building at 15mm on 45mm track (1:20.3). I build stuff in 1:19; 1:20.3 and 1:22.5 It helps me to maintain a common loading gauge when mixing N Wales NG with South American metre gauge...getting the picture?

Some folk build true scale models in all these variations whilst others build stuff that is robust and will stand a lot of handling and transporting to other garden lines / indoor lines...one chap I know has his railway in the basement and uses meths fired and gas fired locos...his house is still intact even though he sometimes has a very heady mix down there! Most of my stuff is 16mm:1ft (1:19) however and that is how it will stay.

I have not been using Templot 0.74b long but have managed to set up the required standards for my track and it was easy to set out a straight point. However I am struggling with a number of issues, not the least of which is that I have managed to end up with 2 variations of my curved point the wrong one of which I seem to be able to print out but not the other and I cannot work out what I have accidenatlly clicked on. I do find the saving system difficult to work with having used autosave in most other software and sometimes lose some very good ideas and have to start from scratch again, but I expect it will come. I intend to persevere.

ATB

George

 


 

posted: 28 Feb 2008 13:24

from:

George Harris
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Simon Dunkley wrote:
Gn15 is generally "G" scale (it tends to be a bit variable) suing 00/H0 mechanisms.

For a taster, try this:

http://www.gn15.info/

Or this:

http://hometown.aol.com/Gn15modeler/index.html

It has been around for a few years.
Hi Simon,

Thanks for the links. Since writing earlier I found the gn15.info site. It's all new to me! :) Another mystery -- how and why did Gauge 3 get renamed as G ?:?

Gauge 3 is standard gauge stock to the following standards:

http://www.gauge3.co.uk/standards.htm

The Gauge 3 Society supports it and Garden Railway Services in Princes Risborough are the main proponents, reseller and manufacturer support but there are others.

G scale is the stuff that LGB marketed so successfully in Europe and now in the US on 45mm but was intended as metre gauge. It has variable scales...and extremely heavy engineered track for walking on.

However, G scale in Europe has come to vary in scale and some is built to 1:20.3 as well as 1:22.5 and the 45mm gauge NG modellers also appear often under that banner although not entirely...

http://www.g-scale-society.co.uk/index.htm

G scale in the US seems to mean something slightly different...

Confusing isn't it?

George.



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