Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 27 Dec 2007 13:46 from: Jim Guthrie
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I was fiddling around with Templot yesterday when I had a look in the Scale and Gauge dialog box and noted that there were two exact gauge settings for 3mm scale - one is the 3mm Society 14.2mm standard with 0.8mm flangeways and the other is ScaleThree with 0.5mm flangeways. I dug around a bit more and found a pointer to Model Railways of January 1973 and found the article by John Delaney and Stewart Hine proposing the ScaleThree standards. I've also searched around elsewhere but can find no mention of the standard - not even on the 3mm Society web site. Was this standard ever used - i.e. was a layout (layouts?) ever built? Jim. |
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posted: 27 Dec 2007 22:46 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Jim Don't know if any Scale Three layouts were actually built. One member of the 3mm Society has recently been testing the interest within the 3mm Society of developing things in this direction. He has produced several papers on the subject which are lodged on the Society Yahoo group; the group is, however, only open to Society members. No doubt if concrete interest is shown in this direction the relevant data could get added to the Technical Data bit of the Society's web site. If you're interested in finding out more, contact me off line and I'll forward your message to the person concerned. I think it's fair to say that an increasing proportion of 3mm Society members use the Society's Finescale standards, mainly with 14.2mm gauge, although some use 13.5mm gauge as a sort of 3mm EM, the attraction of the latter being increased clearances (and of course other gauges for other protopype gauges e.g. Irish). As there are a wide range of wheels, and associated tools such as track gauges, to this standard, and it give something pretty close to scale while remaining reasonably easy to use, there's not a huge incentive to adopt Scale Three. However, if there are people interest in exploring this as a possibility no doubt the rest of us would look on in interest. These views are of course my own, not necessarily those of the Society. cheers Nigel |
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posted: 27 Dec 2007 23:09 from: Jim Guthrie
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Nigel Brown wrote: Hi JimNigel, It was just purely out of interest on my part - I've no serious intent on going back to 3mm scale (I last modelled in the late 50s on Peco spiked track  ). I had noticed that Martin had found almost as many track standards for 3mm scale as for 4mm and I wondered how a relatively minor scale could generate a similar number to 4mm .I note that the flangeway gap in ScaleThree is the same as the 2mm track standards in Templot. I haven't had a chance to dig around, but I would assume that the S3 wheel flange profile is close to the 2mm one so I would reckon that there's a fair chance that the standards would work since the 2mm modellers seems to get excellent running on their standards. Jim. |
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posted: 28 Dec 2007 01:06 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Jim Guthrie wrote:The critical difference is probably the flange depth, which is 0.30mm in Scale Three and 0.51mm in 2mm Finescale (I believe). Only P87 of the proto scales has a smaller depth (0.25mm). I often wonder why the proto scale enthusiasts don't adopt the pragmatic option of making the flange a bit deeper; using 0.5mm say would make all the difference, with very very little effect on appearance. cheers Nigel |
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posted: 28 Dec 2007 03:54 from: Jim Guthrie
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Nigel Brown wrote: The critical difference is probably the flange depth, which is 0.30mm in Scale Three and 0.51mm in 2mm Finescale (I believe). Only P87 of the proto scales has a smaller depth (0.25mm).In the original article, no mention was made of the actual flange depth. But the authors did make mention of the smaller ScaleThree flange but thought that satisfactory running would be obtained with flat track - no mention being made of springing or compensation. On flange depths, the depth of Proto:87 flanges is 0.33mm (according to the NMRA web site), P4 flanges are 0.38mm, S scale flanges are 0.46mm, and the Scale7 flanges are 0.66mm. So you might suggest to 2mm modellers that they could shave a few thou off since their flange depth is not far short of the Scale7 one .But I have been pragmatic in my early days with S scale flanges and added a few thou on when turning the profiles to give a bit more wiggle room, but with springing or compensation, exact scale flanges seem to work well with track to a reasonable standard. I don't think it is pragmatic to expect model railway track to stay flat. It would be interesting to see if the 0.30mm ScaleThree flanges were practical using compensation or springing. Jim. |
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| Last edited on 28 Dec 2007 03:57 by Jim Guthrie |
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posted: 29 Dec 2007 12:56 from: Templot User
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----- from Andy Reichert ----- Jim Guthrie wrote: I was fiddling around with Templot yesterday when I had a look in the Scale and Gauge dialog box and noted that there were two exact gauge settings for 3mm scale - one is the 3mm Society 14.2mm standard with 0.8mm flangeways and the other is ScaleThree with 0.5mm flangeways. How does a 0.5 mm flangeway qualify as scale three??? Surely that's only a "fine" and not a "scale" value? Andy |
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posted: 29 Dec 2007 13:05 from: Martin Wynne
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Andy Reichert wrote: How does a 0.5 mm flangeway qualify as scale three??? Surely that's only a "fine" and not a "scale" value? Hi Andy, In 4mm scale the P4 flangeway is 0.67mm. For 3mm scale multiply by 3 and divide by 4. And the result is... A dead scale flangeway would be 0.44mm, but if P4 can get away with widening it a bit I don't see why S3 shouldn't do the same. I think 0.5mm is the original MRSG flangeway for 3mm/ft scale. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 29 Dec 2007 13:58 from: Jim Guthrie
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Martin Wynne wrote: Andy Reichert wrote:Martin,How does a 0.5 mm flangeway qualify as scale three??? Surely that's only a "fine" and not a "scale" value? The original article quoted 0.018" for the flangeway which equates to 0.46mm. This measurement was also the same as 26swg and it could be assumed that the authors had adopted the measurement so that a readily available measure was available. The actual size should have been 0.17" or 0.44mm. I've attached the first page of the article to show the authors' arguments. Also, if I remember at the time, modellers in other scales would not accept the MRSG dimensions for the scales which had been extrapolated from the P4 compromises. I know that was the case for S scale and Scale7. You can gather the flavour of the time from the heading to the article Jim. |
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posted: 29 Dec 2007 23:21 from: Templot User
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----- from Andy Reichert ----- OT- I wrote this reply at the very first start of this thread, 12/27 at noon UK time. But it was a reply to the Yahoo email I received and it has only now turned up approx 48 hours later. So I'm not sure if the email version of the forum is working correctly.  The P:87 FW is 0.021" min, or ~0.53 mm, so calling the same FW "scale" in 3 mm scale and fine in 2 mm scale seems to be pushing credibility. Andy |
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posted: 29 Dec 2007 23:42 from: Martin Wynne
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Andy Reichert wrote: OT- I wrote this reply at the very first start of this thread, 12/27 at noon UK time. But it was a reply to the Yahoo email I received and it has only now turned up approx 48 hours later. So I'm not sure if the email version of the forum is working correctly. Hi Andy, Email automation applies only to messages received from the Templot Club forums. If you post messages by email, it requires manual intervention by me to steer them into the correct forum/topic. Which inevitably means that occasionally there will be delays. I'm intending to automate this also, but it's not top priority at present. The solution is extremely simple -- why not register on the forum? No personal information is required. It takes only a few seconds -- http://85a.co.uk/forum/login.php?register=1Then every email you receive has a link at the top which takes you directly to the relevant location in the forum. From where you can enter a reply instantly -- faster than Yahoo! And unlike email you can include images and file attachments and add context formatting for emphasis.Also as a registered member you can choose to receive your forum messages as direct emails rather than via Yahoo, and again much faster. A daily digest option is also available if you prefer. More information at: http://85a.co.uk/forum/new_member.htm regards, Martin. |
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posted: 29 Dec 2007 23:53 from: Templot User
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----- from Andrew Shillito ----- As someone who has been in 3mm for forty years or so, ScaleThree pops its head over the parapet every now and then, usually by someone who has no intention of doing it, but likes to stir the pot, I have never seen a ScaleThree layout. I know of none that have been started and I think that I never will. The existing 14.2 whilst not perfect seems to work for most finescale 3mm modellers. Andrew Shillito |
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posted: 30 Dec 2007 00:23 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Templot User wrote: ----- from Andy Reichert -----As Jim said earlier, the Scalethree FW is 0.46mm, close to prototype 0.44mm. By the way, is the P:87 FW 0.021" min? The proto87.com website gives 0.022" - 0.023" (0.57mm - 0.60mm). It's academic anyway. One day someone might actually try Scalethree for the hell of it. But as Andrew Shillito says, 14.2mm finescale works well for those who use it. It looks good and there's ample support for it, so I don't think we'll change. Nigel |
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posted: 30 Dec 2007 03:35 from: Jim Guthrie
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Templot User wrote: ----- from Andrew Shillito -----Andrew, We'll have to blame Martin for including it in his Scale and Gauge selector Jim. |
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posted: 30 Dec 2007 04:40 from: Martin Wynne
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Jim Guthrie wrote: We'll have to blame Martin for including it in his Scale and Gauge selector Hi Jim, Andrew, Yes, and I can guarantee that if I remove it, someone will pop up and say "why isn't S3 included in the gauge list?" But I'm no longer sure that I've got it right. The flangeway given there is 0.50mm, and it seems that for S3 it should be 0.46mm. I must have got the 0.5 from somewhere, I remember spending ages in 1998-9 compiling the original list from every published source I could find.Thanks Jim for scanning the article. I do remember it and I have a copy filed away somewhere (safe ).regards, Martin. |
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posted: 30 Dec 2007 18:30 from: Andy Reichert click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I didn't realise the Yahoo replies required your personal intervention. That's not a good use of your valuable support time So I've joined the forum and will try and remember to use it when I see a message I want to reply to. Cheers Andy Martin Wynne wrote: Andy Reichert wrote:OT- I wrote this reply at the very first start of this thread, 12/27 at noon UK time. But it was a reply to the Yahoo email I received and it has only now turned up approx 48 hours later. So I'm not sure if the email version of the forum is working correctly. |
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