Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 5 Nov 2019 01:12 from: Martin Wynne
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I've been surprised by the level of interest in these open-source Templot3 discussions.  I expected only a handful of members to be interested in following this computer stuff. But already it is over two dozen. Which is surprising bearing in mind that the open-source project had been lying dormant and forgotten for 18 months, despite my occasional reminders about it. Which leads to the obvious questions -- where next, and with what urgency? Is getting Templot3 up to speed and released as a viable alternative to Templot2 more important than further Templot2 development? For a start there is the question of the name. The name TemplotMEC seems fine for the home workbench version. But for the final release version I'm minded to change to Templot3 rather than OpenTemplot. It is after all the logical progression from Templot2. We have in the last few days made some progress on the outstanding issues: High CPU usage: A kludge solution has been found which can be lived with until a proper fix is discovered. Thank goodness -- that had been a big worry. BOX and BGS file formats: We now have a working means of data interchange between Templot2 and Templot3, which I suspect was the main reason for the lack of interest previously. Recent new functions in Templot2 missing from Templot3: With the renewed interest in Templot3 there is no reason why I shouldn't progress that soon. I will post the code and we can get on with it. Missing Lazarus functionality: We are nearly there with the file viewer thanks to Graeme's help. For the remaining stuff I'm minded to create helper Windows executables. I've already done that with the Windows WebBrowser for the NLS map screenshots, and it works fine. The same approach should be possible with the metafiles, sketchboard and PDF exports. We can make as much as possible of the code open-source, licences permitting. It's not ideal because it ties Templot3 to Windows, at least for those functions, until cross-platform alternatives can be found. On the other hand, Templot2 has been tied to Windows for 20 years without the sky falling in. Where all that stands for Linux/CrossOver/Wine users remains to be seen. The situation is in flux after Apple recently wrecked CrossOver/Wine on Macs with the latest 64-bit-only OS, so users running Templot on Macs that way are already in trouble. Cosmetic stuff: There is a lot of that to do. It doesn't affect functionality, but it needs fixing. For example here is the export dialog in Templot2 and currently in Templot3: Templot2: 2_041950_360000000.png  Templot3: 2_041950_360000001.png  The coloured group boxes have been spoilt by having their captions in the wrong font colour and backgrounds. There is plenty more similar stuff to be fixed. Or alternatively we could have a revamp to more modern-looking designs. But that would be a lot of time-consuming work, with no actual change in functionality. There is no doubt that Lazarus is a bit rough around the edges compared with Delphi. On the other hand it's free -- just like Templot. Thoughts on all this welcome -- are you eager to see Templot3 as the full public release of Templot? cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 5 Nov 2019 02:01 from: Rob Manchester
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Hi Martin, Thank you for your thoughts - No I haven't gone to bed yet either  As I have probably said before and may well say again :- For me priority #1 is to have a web based Templot(n) that works and is always running at the latest version. It shouldn't need any knowledge of how it compiles or what programming it contains. I would like nice extra features adding as time goes on ( outside slips that don't need an IQ of 150 to figure out for example ). Buses not withstanding I am 100% happy with you carrying out this until you no longer feel able - but if you feel you want to step down your Templot activities you should ( please ) work with others to allow this to continue without too much effort from you.Any extra pure programming that adds features( that are not bound by licences etc ) should be made available periodically in a downloadable TemplotMEC/OT.exe that we can squirrel away for when you forget your green cross code I noted you commented that I was using TemplotMEC in anger - that wasn't quite what I said or meant to imply. Priority#1 above is my daily route to using Templot. I made sure that TemplotMEC did what it was supposed to do ( minus the requied missing parts ) and it did. Where next.. ? and with what urgency.. ? No idea, we have a working system now, it just depends where you and others want it to be and when. Computer going to sleep now and so am I........ Rob |
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posted: 5 Nov 2019 05:51 from: Graeme
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Hi Martin, I suspect Rob's view is likely to be shared by a large proportion of your users - i.e. "the main thing that I want is for my existing designs to be protected." For me it has a rather different focus (partly because I HAVE no existing designs! - hahaha  )For me it is about the software. Templot is a remarkable piece of software and I want it to continue to have a long and happy life. I believe I can (and intend to) contribute to that. It would seem from your comments that perhaps a few others are looking to join in too, which would be great!  All contributions have value. Sorting out cosmetic issues may not seem hugely valuable, but it absolutely is, as it is one more task you don't have to do, leaving you free to do the stuff only you can.And on that note ... one of the things eating into your time at the moment is conversations such as this (and of course the thinking time that goes behind them). The very fact that we have two versions is costing us a very valuable resource - your time and attention! (and to a lesser extent, that of anyone that wants to contribute.) The way to fix that, it seems to me, is to put our efforts into getting to T3 as quickly as possible, so your attention can be focused on one product (and we can ALL stop having discussions on this topic!  )Of course, if there is a life-threatening, absolutely must-have feature that you just have to put into T2, then fine, but otherwise ... Cheers, g PS No, outside slips DON'T count as life-threatening. (Actually I am just showing off, as I learned the difference between outside and inside slips this week )PPS ... and I agree absolutely with Rob about the license-encumbering. Short term solutions are great, if it helps get us there quickly, but we should have a plan to replace them, and it would be nice if we can completely avoid the situation you are in right now where licenses are an issue with free distribution. To me, the key attraction of Lazarus is not that it is free, as in free beer, but that it is free, as in free speech. (NOT that I am against free beer, of course. ) |
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posted: 5 Nov 2019 09:28 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi Martin Rob has pretty much summed up my thoughts on this - security of existing and future work. Initially, my main concern was being able to still use Templot if the internet check no longer responded for whatever reason, which would have basically scrapped all my work. That problem no longer exists, so if all else fails we now at least have a perpetual version of Templot that will last for as long as Microsoft allow it to, and even then we can have a dedicated PC to run it if necessary. I have a spare Windows XP box tucked away for my Alps printer for much the same reason! I have to say that Templot already does pretty much everything I need but, like print preview, there are things I don't yet know I need! It would be nice to think that Templot development can be continued if for whatever reason, like bus timetable changes, you call it a day. Templot has become one of those indispensable programs and I couldn't now imagine designing a layout without it. I've even kept my lock release code for nostalgia's sake!! I will admit that the volume of emails just now is a little overwhelming, but I chose to stay included to keep an eye on what's happening. Cheers, Paul |
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posted: 5 Nov 2019 16:06 from: Martin Wynne
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Rob Manchester wrote:but if you feel you want to step down your Templot activities you shouldHi Rob, Paul, My feeling is that if I can be sure that Templot is in good hands (or at least that existing users will not be let down in mid-project), I would like to slowly wind down on Templot to a position in a few years time where I take only a watching brief from the background. There are many days now when I would prefer to put my boots on and get out with my camera, without feeling the pull of the computer. It's not often that I manage a whole day without even switching it on. There are some around me who feel that's not actually physically possible. But that's a big if, and I'm not sure we are there yet. Ideally we need some youngsters getting involved, because that damn bus can be a bit random in its travels. But ultimately we are talking about toy trains, which can't in any rational argument be regarded as a serious concern. If it all goes down the pan, life goes on. Brexit permitting. cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 5 Nov 2019 21:09 from: Martin Wynne
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Graeme wrote: ...Hi Graeme, Thanks for your kind words. I'm also keen to get to T3, but not necessarily "as quickly as possible" because I can see quite a few obstacles in the way. For example I can't imagine a version of Templot which doesn't support EMF metafiles. Just as an example of that see the recent new printed-page preview function in T2. They are great too for export to CAD for control panels and suchlike (use DXF for actual track), and the entire working of the sketchboard is based on them. When I discovered that Lazarus doesn't support metafiles (presumably because they are too Windows-ish) my heart sank. I have an idea for a helper exe created in Delphi to provide T3 with metafile support (on Windows only). But so far it's only an idea, and will involve some complex programming, and the end result is bound to involve some compromises. In any event, I have to release at least one more version of T2, containing the MECBOX export functions. At present I have made only a temporary scruff release. I have also spent a lot of time in the last 12 months working on the 3D chairing exports in the DXF for my 3D printer. All in T2. It's a long way from being ready, but I know one or two users are eagerly waiting for it. Moving it all to T3 in a half-finished state is no mean task, and surely means they will be waiting even longer. But you are right about the amount of time writing all these posts is taking up. Today I have been doing some more site housekeeping as you probably noticed. cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 5 Nov 2019 22:14 from: Trevor Walling
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Hello Martin, I believe the capabilities of Templot2 exceed most users needs by a significant by margin. Maybe the time has come for you to cease thinking about and creating more. Perhaps you would have a lot more time for other things if you passed some of the work load to others for the Templot3 version. All this programming stuff is beyond my capabilities but those whom like and can do that sort of thing would appear to enjoy it as much as some of us like using Templot. If you are comfortable letting others become involved in you wonderful creation then it would be good to go that route. I am sure there are features in Templot that many of us are unaware of or have forgotten but if you create more it makes the task never ending. As to how fast that would be up to how much you could take a back seat and let others progress things. Whatever the case we are all indebted to your kind and altruistic conduct that has given us such a great tool for railway modelling. Regards. Trevor |
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posted: 13 Nov 2019 21:47 from: Martin Wynne
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Today has been frustrating. I made good progress with the metafiles in the last few days, and now in addition to the metafile exports working, we have the metafile picture shapes working too. That's all stuff which I expected to be a big headache in Lazarus, and which has actually gone quite well. But now in testing things I have run into several other issues. When I released the first open-source versions 18 months ago, the intention was only the bus-proofing of Templot2. It took me a long time to get the Delphi5 code into a state which would actually compile in Lazarus. But that done I didn't take much notice of the actual usability of it all, bar a few checks that everything seemed to work ok. I didn't expect anyone to be using it for actual work. But if we are looking to release Templot3 as a practical replacement for Templot2, "seems to work ok" isn't good enough. I keep finding areas in which Lazarus produces different results from Delphi5 which impact on ease of use. For example, it is now clear that Lazarus doesn't support child forms in the same way as Delphi5 (or as Windows intends). I suspected as much when I found a few days ago that the GetParent function isn't implemented. If say you move the information panel or click something on it, it grabs the keyboard focus away from the trackpad, so that none of the F-keys, Home, Insert etc., will work until you have re-focused the trackpad by clicking on it. Not only that but the trackpad receives an OnDeactivate event in the process which causes all sorts of other issues. In other words it behaves just like any other stand-alone form, apart from remaining visible on the trackpad. This does not make for comfortable working - especially not for the mouse-action panel and the mouse actions. I have spent all day today chasing this stuff round in circles. It can all be fixed, but not quickly or easily. It may be that if I had spent 25 years using Lazarus, as I have with Delphi, I would know a simple solution to all this. But as it is I don't, and the only practical way seems to be to use a home-made draggable TPanel component instead. Which is certainly doable, interesting even, but definitely not quick. Or possibly to look for some 3rd party ready-made open-source component instead. There are plenty of closed-source paid-for components such as those from DevExpress, but we can't use those in an open-source project: http://www.devexpress.com/products/vcl/ What I think I'm saying here is that the dream of switching everything to Templot3 from Templot2 in the next few months is looking a bit unlikely now. A program which works is not the same as a program which is easily usable. Which leaves me wondering how often I should be posting updated code files in the meantime? As far as I can see, no-one has downloaded any of the files which I posted on SourceForge a few days ago. cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 15 Nov 2019 09:59 from: Graeme
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Hi Martin, Slightly slow response as I have been working on the next layout. Last week I saw an old post from Paul Boyd along the lines of "Templotting can become a hobby in itself". I now know what he means! Martin Wynne wrote: I made good progress with the metafiles in the last few days, and now in addition to the metafile exports working, we have the metafile picture shapes working too. That's all stuff which I expected to be a big headache in Lazarus, and which has actually gone quite well.This is great news. In another post you mentioned SVG, and I think that would be a good way to go in the long term (open, and all that) but that we now have a solution that's working, and working well, by the sound of it, is really great. A major hurdle ticked off the list. But if we are looking to release Templot3 as a practical replacement for Templot2, "seems to work ok" isn't good enough. Yes absolutely. I think this is clear, if T3 is to be a viable successor to T2. However, before I comment on the rest of your post, I need to think about it a bit more (and do a bit of investigation too). Cheers, graeme |
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posted: 15 Nov 2019 10:20 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi Graeme You've got the bug! Yes, I do many layouts in Templot that will never be built, nor were ever intended to be built. This one is one I did a few years ago of Yatton on the GW main line south-west of Bristol at a friend's suggestion, just for the hell of it! I'd need to win the lottery just to be able to buy the space for that one! I may finish the timbering one day... 105_150516_150000000.png  |
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posted: 15 Nov 2019 10:55 from: Martin Wynne
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Thanks Paul. I think you could at least make a start in one corner on building it. If anyone wants to see it larger, your original upload image file is at: gallery/105/original/105_150516_150000000.png I notice you have the very small font sizes on your screen for the menus. Did you see this from Robert? Any Comments? topic 3550 I would find it difficult to work with text so small. cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 15 Nov 2019 11:14 from: Paul Boyd
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Martin Wynne wrote: I notice you have the very small font sizes on your screen for the menus. Did you see this from Robert? Any Comments?Hi Martin I did see that post, and to be honest I wondered what the problem was! That's the usual font size I use, I've not changed anything from any sort of default, and I'm quite comfortable with it! The screenshot was taken from my work computer (running Templot from a memory stick) but my home computer is the same. Although I normally wear varifocals with plus prescription at the bottom and minus prescription at the top for distance, computer screens are just at the zero point (for now!) where I don't need to wear glasses at all, in fact I can't wear them because I'd be using the limited transition corridor. I would love to build some of that formation but it would never be used! Cheers, Paul |
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posted: 15 Nov 2019 12:53 from: Martin Wynne
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Thanks Paul. I wish I had your eyes! If you are happy with the small menu font, you might prefer to make Templot smaller to match, by dragging the slider down a notch or two? Since I implemented the size slider, I have had very little feedback on anyone using it. cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 15 Nov 2019 15:57 from: Graeme
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Paul Boyd wrote: You've got the bug! ..... I may finish the timbering one day...Well it certainly seems that way (though this masterpiece represents several years' work at my current level!) Timbering - ah yes - that is not even on my radar yet. Thank you for this (though I am alternating between inspired and depressed). Cheers, graeme |
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posted: 15 Nov 2019 17:45 from: Paul Boyd
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Martin Wynne wrote: Thanks Paul.I have played with the slider, but I think I’ve just got used to the default so never really think to fiddle with it! I’ll have another play next time. You wouldn’t want my eyes! Computer screen distance is about the only distance where I don’t need correction! I wear +2 reading glasses for bench work, and my varifocals for day to day wear as I’m short sighted, but can’t use my distance prescription at less than about 6ft! Sorry, we’re diverting!! Cheers, Paul |
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posted: 15 Nov 2019 17:47 from: Paul Boyd
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Graeme wrote: Thank you for this (though I am alternating between inspired and depressed).Hi Graeme. Please don’t get depressed, I have a bit of a head start as I bought Templot last century! Cheers, Paul |
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posted: 15 Nov 2019 18:16 from: Martin Wynne
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Paul Boyd wrote:I’m short sighted...Hi Paul, So was I, but you'll find your sight gets longer as you get older -- short-sight is one of the few things that gets better with age! My problem is that my two eyes are not the same, one needing significantly more correction than the other. So there is no distance at which I don't need glasses to see clearly. Folks find it amusing when they ask me to look at something, and I then cover one eye! Yes, we always do divert. I think it's normal. cheers, Martin. |
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