Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 3669Make Diamond Problem
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posted: 14 May 2020 12:44

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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Martin,

I've hit a problem this morning and can't seem to get round it.    I'm tryin gto make a switched diamond from two intersection curved tracks and Templot won't give me a result.


25_140740_050000000.png25_140740_050000000.png

I get as far as here,  accepting the notch position,  and when I press the bottom button, nothing happens.   Both tracks are pure curves with no transitions.   For this picture I copied and moved the actual curves from the track diagram to an empty area for clarity.   Any ideas?

Jim.
Attachment: attach_3050_3669_TemplotProblem.jpg     85

posted: 14 May 2020 13:47

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Jim,

Hmm.

You didn't post a box file, but I tried replicating your screenshot -- and got the same result as you. i.e. no result at all. :?

2_140847_100000000.png2_140847_100000000.png

I will investigate. Thanks for posting.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 14 May 2020 14:02

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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1951_140914_090000000.jpg1951_140914_090000000.jpgJim/Martin, I've just attempted the same, and it worked fine. Ian
Last edited on 14 May 2020 14:14 by Ian Allen
posted: 14 May 2020 15:36

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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Ian,

I've tried different placements of the curves and it works as intended. It only seems to be in the particular placement as shown in my picture. I('ve probably hit some magic number that throws the software. :D

Jim.

posted: 14 May 2020 15:40

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Jim Guthrie wrote: 
I've probably hit some magic number that throws the software. :D
Hi Jim,

Yes, but you should get an error message saying so!  :)

Doing nothing at all isn't acceptable. I'm investigating.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 17 May 2020 23:05

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Jim,

Why this particular radius/location should cause a problem not found elsewhere is proving difficult to track down. These things are usually caused by rounding effects -- somewhere in the maths will be a blindingly obvious explanation, but so far I haven't found it. :?

However, the most important thing is that you get an error message about it, rather than nothing at all, so I have added this:

2_171750_090000000.png2_171750_090000000.png

In this case, clicking try again does produce a result, although the V-crossing angles need a slight tweak (F9) to match the curves exactly.

This will niggle me until I find it, but for now I'm going to leave it at this cop-out. Hopefully no-one will ever see it. :)

In the next program update, thanks again for reporting it.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 18 May 2020 08:19

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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Martin,

Many thanks. It looks as though you've had a job on your hands since you usually respond with fixes in hours rather than days. :D   I shall await the next update and adjusting a close approximation will be fine.

Jim.
Last edited on 18 May 2020 08:20 by Jim Guthrie
posted: 18 May 2020 15:22

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Jim Guthrie wrote:
Many thanks. It looks as though you've had a job on your hands since you usually respond with fixes in hours rather than days. :D
Hi Jim,

Well that stirred me into action, so with a strong coffee and a boiled egg inside me I have had another go. :)

I have modified the make diamond-crossing at intersection function to create a much more precise fit to the starting curves. It takes a little longer to run, but not too much.

I still don't know why those curves and angles created a problem, but the above change eliminates it, and creates the expected diamond-crossing first time.

In the next program update, after I have done a lot more testing.

This change will also be useful when fitting a turnout to an existing branch curve. I will look at making that a new function, if I can sort out a user interface for it. At present it's a bit clunky and doesn't always work (peg/align tools > put notch on intersection with control template).

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 18 May 2020 16:08

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,
I have modified the make diamond-crossing at intersection function to create a much more precise fit to the starting curves. It takes a little longer to run, but not too much.

Just last night I created a slip starting from the make diamond-crossing at intersection function, with both routes around 3m radius (both the same radius).  When extending one of the resulting half-diamonds I noticed there was a slight discrepancy of about half a rail width after something like 500mm, so hopefully the modification will tighten that up a bit!  Nothing I couldn't tweak, but it'll be interesting to try it again when the next release comes out.

Cheers,
Paul


posted: 18 May 2020 21:33

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin
I thought I'd have a go at recreating the slight misalignment, just to see if it was me doing something silly or if it's what might be fixed by the modification.  I could recreate it!  I'll attach the box file in a second, but in the screenshot the red template is the remnant of one of the original curves to act as a reference.  I created a diamond at the intersection of two identical curves, then followed the video to create an outside slip.  Extending the approach road of one of the turnouts, as well as the length, shows a slight misalignment at each end, compared to the reference.

I hope this isn't something new for you to fix!

Cheers,
Paul
105_181629_530000000.png105_181629_530000000.png

posted: 18 May 2020 21:34

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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The box file:-
Attachment: attach_3068_3669_OS_slip_misalignment.box     80

posted: 18 May 2020 22:21

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
I hope this isn't something new for you to fix!
Hi Paul,

Thanks for the feedback and BOX file.

You probably noticed that when Templot creates a diamond-crossing at an intersection, it leaves the diagonal-road exits on the minimum TMINP positions. There's a reason for that -- it's to minimize the effect of the error you found. What you are intended to do is use a copy of the original underlying curve for the connecting track and shorten it to that TMINP exit. Rather than extending the exit from the half-diamond.

Of course I have rather thrown a spanner in that with the new OS peg positions. Especially if you then go and extend the switch with some approach track. :)

The new code which I have been working on today will definitely improve the match to the original curve. Whether it will eliminate the mismatch entirely it's too early to say, I need to do a lot of testing to be sure I haven't broken anything. It's looking good so far, my intention is that it's good enough if the extend/shorten to meet functions work ok on TMINP, and preferably also on TVJP (CTRL-6).

There is also the thorny question of what radius make branch track should be, and does it differ for a regular half-diamond from an irregular one? It does for a regular or curviform turnout -- very markedly.

The tools > make diamond-crossing function works differently, with a slightly different result on curved track -- both K-crossings are exactly the same angle. In the intersection version they differ a fraction using true arcs through both roads. 

There is always more than meets the eye on everything. :)

Thanks again,

Martin.

posted: 18 May 2020 22:44

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

Ah, that makes sense! I've tried again by using the original curve (in red) to meet up with TMINP, and of course that lines up perfectly.  The turnout discrepancy is only a tiny smidge out now without the approach track magnifying the error miles away.

I'll look forward to see what happens at the next release!

Cheers,
Paul

105_181742_290000000.png105_181742_290000000.png

posted: 22 May 2020 11:37

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Paul,
Two curved switched diamond crossings and one fixed diamond crossing, all made using the current version of Templot. There was no need for me to make any adjustments to get everything to align. I found working with copies of the original plain track lengths helped immensely.

Ian 
1951_220633_530000000.png1951_220633_530000000.png

posted: 22 May 2020 12:34

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Ian,

That's impressive -- you obviously like building diamond-crossings. :)

I have made a few changes in the next update, see:

 topic 3675 - message 29796

The background template is now split and its alignments preserved. A 60ft length of exit track is added to the half-diamonds. A fresh control template is thrown out to one side (as for the make simple link function).

2_220720_160000000.png2_220720_160000000.png

2_220720_160000001.png2_220720_160000001.png

2_220720_160000002.png2_220720_160000002.png

The background template can include pointwork, providing it's clear of the diamond.

In 226c shortly.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 22 May 2020 13:20

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,
Thanks. I certainly prefer diamonds to outside slips !
The next update you have just eluded too will be very helpful going forward. In the meantime, I've just had a re-working of the previous plan. This time though, two ends required a very minor crossing vee adjustment: 7.19 to 7.17 for example. 

Ian1951_220819_420000000.png1951_220819_420000000.png



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