Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 36814 bolt chairs
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posted: 28 May 2020 11:16

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Phil at C&L is now in a position to refresh the range of products he supplies. The first new tooling was the flexible 00 track, in 60' panels, 12" timbers at the ends and two types of key arrangements
Next up are the 4 mm scale 2 and 3 bolt chairs, sprues now come with 16 items, 10 x standard chairs, 2 x Bridge chairs, 2 x J chairs and 2 x H shaped fishplates. The fishplates are also available as separate items.

Phil also has plans afoot to revise more of the existing range as well as bringing new products to the market. He now wants to see if its worth updating the 4 bolt chairs similarly and would like to know what pre-grouped companies used 4 bolt chairs so he can explore this matter further.

I have some of the new chairs on order, will upload photos when I get them

posted: 28 May 2020 11:39

from:

Dave Searle
 
Epsom - United Kingdom

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The LB&SCR used 4 "bolt" chairs from the 1890s:
see LBSCR Chairs

"c.1890: The LBSCR used chairs weighing 46lb. and a net base area of 106.3 sq. in. to support 95 lb. rail. They were fastened by two 7/8 in. spikes 51/2in. long and two solid oak trenails 11/4in. diameter for 35/8 in. and tapering to 111/16 in. the remaining 25/8 in. of the total length of 61/4in. 
[Notes on Permanent Way material, platelaying, and points and crossings . W.H. Cole, 1903 (4th edition)]"

and also the Old Permanent Way website

Cheers,

Dave

posted: 28 May 2020 12:06

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hayfield wrote:
He now wants to see if its worth updating the 4 bolt chairs similarly and would like to know what pre-grouped companies used 4 bolt chairs so he can explore this matter further.
Hi John,

First things first -- they are not bolts. Only the GWR used bolts and nuts for chair fixings, and then only for plain track (with the bolt inserted from below and the nut on top).

Other companies used chair screws or trenails (tapered wooden dowels), inserted from above, and the GWR used screws on pointwork.

However, modellers seem always to refer to them as bolts, so that's another battle lost. :)

Almost all the special switch and crossing chairs, bridge chairs, etc., have 4 screws, so I guess you are asking about ordinary plain track chairs?

Ordinary chairs with 4 fixings have one screw/trenail and one spike on each side. The theory was that the spike is better than the screw/trenail for preventing sideways movement, and the screw/trenail is better than the spike for holding the chair down.

That theory fell by the wayside after the grouping -- the GWR prevented movement by having saw-tooth serrations on the bottom of the chair, and matching serrations adzed into the surface of the sleeper.

The spike hole is smaller than the screw/trenail hole, and the spike usually has a domed head, so is much less prominent than a screw. Screws were used with tapered wooden ferrules of similar size to trenails.

Here's a drawing of a GER ordinary chair having 4 such fixings:

2_280655_550000000.png2_280655_550000000.png

The curved sides on many pre-group chairs are quite noticeable.

Other companies using similar 4-fixing chairs were the Midland (trenails), and the LNWR (screws, chairs with straight sides), and several others. It was a popular pre-group design.

edit: thanks to Dave for the LBSCR info.

I can post scans of the Midland and LNWR chairs if you wish?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 28 May 2020 12:08

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Hi, Pre-grouping use of 4 bolt chairs would have been: GCR, GNR, LYR, MR,  plus others.  However, they would not have had the same dimensions.Ian
Last edited on 28 May 2020 12:09 by Ian Allen
posted: 28 May 2020 12:11

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Martin,

One has to be careful with the LNWR as there are 2 bolt chairs from 1915 as well. These had the fixings diagonally opposed.

Ian

posted: 28 May 2020 12:19

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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LYR 95lb rail chair dimensions1951_280718_460000000.jpg1951_280718_460000000.jpg
Ian

posted: 28 May 2020 12:36

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Ian,

Thanks for that info. As always there is more to everything than meets the eye.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 28 May 2020 16:10

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Thanks everyone for the information, I will pass it on to Phil alone with any other information others may contribute.

Certainly looks like it was far more prolific than just the Midland Railway.

As I said Phil now after stabilizing the business is now trying to develop it. There has been the new items I have listed already available and he is looking at other areas including the 4 bolt chairs to see if its feasible to make improvements. Now its given him some areas to research thank you



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