Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 22 Jun 2020 20:08 from: Martin Wynne
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This looks to be bad news for CrossOver, and anyone running Templot on a Mac computer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53142989 Hang on to the Mac you've got, or if you were thinking of getting a new one, do it soon. Apple just don't like not to be in total control of what folks use their computers for, do they? Meanwhile on Windows, I'm happily running some old Windows95 software on Wndows10, and Templot includes some old 16-bit controls from Windows 3.1 (on the file viewer), which still work fine on Windows10. There's a message there, surely. Meanwhile, does anyone want to try porting Templot3 to an Apple ARM processor? cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 23 Jun 2020 01:20 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Fairly typical Apple. I have a Macbook Pro, but only because I wanted something light and portable to take on holiday, with a good screen and keyboard, and a useful amount of power. I only use it to keep up with stuff on the web. I do have the odd app which is useful on holiday like Anquet Maps, but on a Mac it's a bit flaky and luckily I don't rely on it. I find the Apple "do it the Apple way" a real pain. All my serious stuff is on a PC. It works, and I can set it up the way I want to. And I can build my own PC, which is a lot more fun than just handing over dosh for one and gives me far more control over what I get. Nigel |
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posted: 23 Jun 2020 16:45 from: DerekStuart
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Without making any political comment one way or the other, I notice that Apple is now installing the C19 track and trace without any input to the user. I don't even like Windows dictating to me when I need to update (which is usually for some nonsensical reason, rather than security. |
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posted: posted: 23 Jun 2020 17:09 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
DerekStuart wrote: Without making any political comment one way or the other, I notice that Apple is now installing the C19 track and trace without any input to the user. I don't even like Windows dictating to me when I need to update (which is usually for some nonsensical reason, rather than security.Does this mean that if you've got an iphone you get it anyway, without knowing about it? Nigel |
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23 Jun 2020 17:09 from: d827kelly
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Apple have controlled the software and hardware for as long as Apple products have existed. The move to ARM chips was inevitable when the iOS devices started becoming so popular. To Apple, it makes sense to control the CPU design, something impossible with Intel (only Intel and AMD are allowed to manufacturer x86 compatible chips, and then AMD only due to the original IBM PC design calling for two chip manufacturers for IBM to proceed with the deal, Intel is very hesitant to let others make x86 chips. The only others in the past being Cyrix and later NEC/VIA, which is effectively defunct now). Intel's continued problems moving beyond 14nm production is another major reason for this move from Apple. They can design and tailor the Axx chips for each device type as they please now, probably giving more cache and cores to iMacs/MacBooks etc and the MacBook Air if it continues will probably in effect use a faster version of the Axx chip in whatever iPad is current. They could have gone for AMD x86 chips (they already use AMD for graphics chips), but it probably felt the right time to bring the last remaining piece they didn't control in house. |
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posted: 23 Jun 2020 17:13 from: Dave Summers
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Before posting nonsense please take care to THOROUGHLY check facts. You might want to start here. http://fullfact.org/health/covid-19-track-and-trace-app-has-not-been-automatically-downloaded-peoples-phones/ Dave |
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posted: 23 Jun 2020 17:32 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Dave Summers wrote: Before posting nonsense please take care to THOROUGHLY check facts. You might want to start here. http://fullfact.org/health/covid-19-track-and-trace-app-has-not-been-automatically-downloaded-peoples-phones/To be fair, Derek's post didn't mention an app, and it does look like the API is being downloaded. Which might not mean anything yet, but there could be implications. Nigel |
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posted: 23 Jun 2020 17:34 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
d827kelly wrote: Apple have controlled the software and hardware for as long as Apple products have existed. They could have gone for AMD x86 chips (they already use AMD for graphics chips), but it probably felt the right time to bring the last remaining piece they didn't control in house.Of course there is the possibility that Apple could encounter Intel's problems. Nigel |
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posted: 23 Jun 2020 17:36 from: d827kelly
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APIs get added to both Android and iOS all the time, their usage however is not often forced upon users by either platform, though exceptions apply. Google has added support for the track and trace functions to Android, but, the functionality requires the user to install an App that makes use of that API. The same as per Dave Summer's link probably applies with iOS, but I've never had one of those, preferring Android personally. |
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posted: 23 Jun 2020 17:43 from: d827kelly
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Nigel Brown wrote: d827kelly wrote:They could perhaps, but the ARM cpus are designed in a very different way to the Intel x86 way. The Intel method currently uses a big die to pack everything on (conversely, AMD for Ryzen, use what is termed a chiplet approach, with effectively a modular design, which has made moving to 7nm and beyond much easier for them, and hence so much more competitive due to better yields etc on smaller die sizes, resulting in more chips per platter).They could have gone for AMD x86 chips (they already use AMD for graphics chips), but it probably felt the right time to bring the last remaining piece they didn't control in house.Of course there is the possibility that Apple could encounter Intel's problems. Apple already has a lot of experience with designing their ARM cpus since the first A chip was put into an iDevice. They licence the base designs from ARM, and are then free to customise them however they please. Finding foundry capacity to make the chips is another matter of course, but last I heard, Apple have reserved production slots with TMSC and Samsung for both 7nm and 5nm processes, though for what each will be is another matter entirely. You cannot really easily compare production of ARM cpus with x86 cpus either, as the latter is much much more complex than the former. ARM cpus of course being of the RISC architecture and x86 being CISC. Virtually every mobile device has some version of an ARM design in it, including the rather popular Nintendo Switch. Intel not being able to get below 14nm easily means a big deal for heat production and battery life, as the smaller the die, the (usually) lower power draw, etc. However we're veering off on a tangent here I think now. |
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posted: 24 Jun 2020 08:17 from: Hayfield
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DerekStuart wrote: Without making any political comment one way or the other, I notice that Apple is now installing the C19 track and trace without any input to the user.This is very old news and is the same for both iPhone's and androids, and is not an app. I have a Dell desk top and iPhone & iPad, know nothing about programming but find all 3 products and both companies very good |
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posted: 25 Aug 2020 23:12 from: Ian Bunch click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
There's no danger of a Mac not running Windows. Parallels handles the experience seamlessly | ||
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posted: 6 Dec 2020 18:24 from: roythebus
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Well, I've just tried to open Templot on my mac which managed to update itself yet again and guess what, Templot won't open on it. I have Crossover installed with the latest update, Templot is listed in the Crossover list, I double click on Templot and nothing happens. Anyone got any ideas? I can't remember what the name is of the latest Mac update, I'm hopeless with these things. i have loads of BGS and box files on here but no means of using them now! Any ideas anyone?? |
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posted: 6 Dec 2020 18:38 from: John Shelley
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roythebus wrote:I can't remember what the name is of the latest Mac update, I'm hopeless with these things. i have loads of BGS and box files on here but no means of using them now! Any ideas anyone??Use the OS that Templot is designed for. Don't rely on those various techies doing conversions for you. John from 33820 St Ciers sur Gironde |
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posted: 6 Dec 2020 19:15 from: Rob Manchester
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Hi Roy, I agree with John, If you are a seasoned user of alternate operating systems or other brands of desktop machines you would be able to work round issues like your current one. It sounds like you are making a lot of extra work and hassle for yourself by using a Mac. I considered ditching Windows and using Templot ( and my few other Windows apps ) on Linux based systems but decided to just stick with what I knew and what worked for me. Haing just turned 60  keeping things simple where possible is a great idea.I hope somebody comes to your rescue with your current problem. Rob |
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posted: 6 Dec 2020 19:36 from: Martin Wynne
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roythebus wrote: Well, I've just tried to open Templot on my mac which managed to update itself yet again and guess what, Templot won't open on it. I have Crossover installed with the latest update, Templot is listed in the Crossover list, I double click on Templot and nothing happens. Anyone got any ideas?Hi Roy, Sometimes I think I shall just have to buy a Mac to have any hope of helping Mac users of Templot.  I'm sorry, I haven't the faintest idea why you can't access your files. If your Mac has updated itself, the the very first thing to try after an update is to hard restart your Mac. On Windows that's not the same as simply switching it off and on again, so I assume a Mac is the same. Google says: How to Force Restart Your Mac: Press and hold down the Command (⌘) and Control (Ctrl) keys along with the power button (or the Touch ID / Eject button, depending on the Mac model) until the screen goes blank and the machine restarts. If no joy, the next thing to try would be reinstalling Templot in CrossOver. Download it from: http://templot.com/companion/installation.php It won't delete any of your existing files, or shouldn't do. If that doesn't work, you probably need to reinstall CrossOver. And then try reinstalling Templot. cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 6 Dec 2020 19:48 from: Martin Wynne
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John Shelley wrote:Use the OS that Templot is designed for. Don't rely on those various techies doing conversions for you.Hi John, I do test Templot on Wine/CrossOver and sometimes use it myself that way. For the most part on Linux systems it works fine, and if not I try to fix it. But Apple just don't like folks using their computers that way, and keep throwing a spanner in the works on Mac computers. cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 6 Dec 2020 21:13 from: Dave Summers
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The latest version of Mac OS is Big Sur v11.0.1 - just click on the apple top left of the screen and read the words. Crossover 19.0.2 is not compatible with Big Sur and will not run ANY Windows software. At a cost of £32 to upgrade to Crossover v20, I have ditched Crossover completely, and installed Templot on my wife's PC which she rarely uses. I no longer travel for work so the ability to run Templot on my Mac is no longer relevant. If you have to use a Mac then you'll probably need to shell out for the Crossover uprade but it is probably a cheaper long-term option to get hold of a s/h PC with a decent size of screen and install Templot on that. Dave |
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posted: 6 Dec 2020 22:05 from: Martin Wynne
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Thanks Dave, That's bad news for Roy and other CrossOver users on a Mac. A quick look at the CrossOver forums suggest that even the version 20 upgrade is having problems with Big Sur on a Mac. Is there any way they can get access to their Templot files, even tough Templot itself won't run? If Roy's Mac has updated itself automatically, is there a way to revert it? I have frequently suggested that the best place to save your files when using CrossOver is on a USB stick or other external drive, so hopefully folks have been doing that. Big Sur appears to be some sort of half-way house between Intel code, and code for the new Apple RISC processors. But presumably Apple will continue to support for years to come the millions of Intel-based Macs currently in use? Just to repeat that the problems apply to Mac only. CrossOver works great on Linux, including for Templot. cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 6 Dec 2020 23:21 from: d827kelly
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If it is an Intel based Mac, two options exist besides crossover. 1, use bootcamp and install windows on the Mac and use it just for the few applications you need, meaning that the installation does not need to be very big. 2, the other option is to get software like parallels and install windows in a virtual machine and run the application within that. It is possibly the more technical option, but probably the most flexible in the long term. Neither option will work on the new ARM M1 Macs though! |
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posted: 6 Dec 2020 23:50 from: roythebus
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ISTR seeing a bit about Crossover and paid for the latest all-singing-all-dancing version when the previous upgrade happened. I now have Big Sur installed. If I click on the Templot download Templot goes across to Crossover but won't load on Crossover. Before the latest upgrade it was working fine. Thinking back to earlier in the year, I figured out to have 2 windows open next to each other then I could click and drag Templot across to Crossover and it worked. Maybe I'll try that tomorrow if I can remember how to do it. I still have a couple of Windows 7 machines but they take so long to load with ten million updates every time they are almost unusable. Maybe I'll try uninstalling Big Sur on here. |
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posted: 7 Dec 2020 07:41 from: Dave Summers
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The downside of Bootcamp and virtual machines is that you need a paid-for Windows licence. Crossover does not. Downgrading to Catalina is technically possible but a significant faff. Roy - I suggest turning off the Windows updater! |
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posted: 7 Dec 2020 23:42 from: roythebus
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Will I have a windows updater on a Mac machine? I'll certainly turn off the mac updater and try to reinstall the previous operating system, Catalina was it? Luckily I still have a couple of windows machines running windows XP or 7, I can't remember which! |
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| Last edited on 7 Dec 2020 23:43 by roythebus |
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posted: 8 Dec 2020 14:47 from: d827kelly
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Dave Summers wrote: The downside of Bootcamp and virtual machines is that you need a paid-for Windows licence. Crossover does not. Downgrading to Catalina is technically possible but a significant faff. You can generally get windows 10 licences for much less than the cost of crossover. If you don't activate windows 10 it will still work fine, but you won't be able to do things like change the background of the desktop or connect to more than just the security updates. On windows 10 home edition you cannot disable windows update entirely, it will keep downloading and installing them regardless. If you have the pro edition you have some more options, but it will still reboot itself to install updates. |
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posted: 8 Dec 2020 14:51 from: d827kelly
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roythebus wrote: Will I have a windows updater on a Mac machine? I'll certainly turn off the mac updater and try to reinstall the previous operating system, Catalina was it? If you have a licence and activated Windows 10 you'll be able to update Windows via Windows update as on any intel pc. To Windows with bootcamp the mac just looks like a normal intel laptop. You cannot fully remove the Windows update features, you can delay the installation of updates, but Microsoft kinda forces it to some extent. If you have Windows 10 home you have the least control over it, the pro version gives you more options and control. Only the enterprise version gives you the ability to fully disable Windows updates (which you shouldn't really be doing!). |
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posted: 8 Dec 2020 15:00 from: Dave Summers
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Roy has already stated that he has Windows 7 PCs which insist on updating themselves and interrupting what he wants to do. My comments regarding switching off that feature relate to those W7 PCs where the user still seems to have some control. W7 seems perfectly adequate to run Templot and I would certainly not want to pay for a new MS licence at any price! |
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posted: 8 Dec 2020 15:15 from: Martin Wynne
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What I need to know is what updating is required to the notes about running Templot on a Mac on this page: http://templot.com/companion/for_you.php If I was to buy a brand new latest Mac today -- 1. would it have an Intel processor or RISC? 2. if RISC, does it have an Intel emulator for older software? is the emulator any good? 3. if RISC, does a virtual Windows machine such as Parallels Desktop still work on there? Natively, or in an emulator? 4. if RISC, is there any equivalent of Bootcamp? 5. whether RISC or not, is there any way CrossOver will still run and support Templot? 6. can Linux be installed on there? If on RISC, would CrossOver Linux work that way? As you can see I'm in a complete fog about Mac developments. The main thing is that I don't want to go on suggesting Templot can be run on a Mac if that is no longer the case, or soon won't be. Hence the original title of this topic. Thanks for any help. cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 8 Dec 2020 17:09 from: Dave Summers
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1. Either is possible until stocks of Intel-based machines are exhausted 2. According to Codeweavers yes it does - see http://www.codeweavers.com/blog/jnewman/2020/11/23/more-crossover-m1-goodness-see-3-different-windows-games-running?utm_source=blog&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=More%20CrossOver%20M1%20Goodness%20—%20See%203%20Different%20Windows%20Games%20Running%21 3. - 6. No idea, sorry As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I've now abandoned attempting to run Templot on a Mac. I have an old W7 PC which does the job perfectly adequately. Cheers Dave |
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posted: 8 Dec 2020 17:28 from: roythebus
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I'm about to try to delete the Big Sur os that appears to be causing the problem and re-install Catalina which did work ok with Templot. I'll let you know how I get on with it. Maybe Codeweavers or winebox will come up with an answer. Meanwhile I'll also boot up the old W7 machine and get the latest Templot on there. |
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posted: 8 Dec 2020 17:32 from: Martin Wynne
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Dave Summers wrote: 2. According to Codeweavers yes it does - seeThanks Dave. Presumably that means Templot will continue to run in CrossOver? If it runs well enough for games, Templot should be ok. So why have you abandoned it? Is it purely because of the need to upgrade CrossOver and the cost, rather than any technical reason? Or something else? cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 8 Dec 2020 21:50 from: Dave Summers
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Templot should run in Crossover but I won't be spending another chunk of cash to find out! Crossover did the job for me for some years but having to shell out for the latest version almost every time Apple upgrade their software is an unnnecessary expense. Having taken the decision to retire at the beginning of March this year, I no longer travel around the world with work and I no longer need my MacBook (laptop of choice) to run Templot. At home I have all of the time and Windoze PCs that I need, to avoid having to use the 'wrong' device! Dave |
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posted: 8 Dec 2020 22:05 from: Martin Wynne
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Dave Summers wrote: Templot should run in Crossover but I won't be spending another chunk of cash to find out! Crossover did the job for me for some years but having to shell out for the latest version almost every time Apple upgrade their software is an unnecessary expense.Thanks Dave. How about Winebottler? It's free: http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/ How easy is it to install? How well does it keep up with Mac upgrades? How well does Templot run in it? Anyone? cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 9 Dec 2020 00:08 from: roythebus
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From what I remember Wine won't work with the latest Mac upgrade. But I'll double-check. | ||
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posted: 9 Dec 2020 01:56 from: Matt M.
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Hi Martin, Two fold problem with Apple. The OS had already started to fall apart with OS10.9 Mavericks (well named). When I got my Mid 2014 Macbook Pro Retina I spent three weeks talking with the 2IC from Apples programming section. Four times a week he would make an appointment and ring from America. I had found three particular issues with the OS which caused kernel panics. Noe of the problems identified were really fixed and have led to some recurring issues for the OS since. The last three OS updates in the 10 series were about preparing the ground for the fully new OS 11 series. And yes that was designed around the RISC chip system. So dealing with new OS and new type of chip. In no particular order. 3. Yes Parallels is available on the RISC machines but 4. there is no bootcamp. (I operate from bootcamp for Windows 7 as there are a few programs I require such as Templot). There will be no native free Windows support. As an extra people are having issues with Bootcamp not being found during boot up on Intel chipped Macs in the Big Sur OS. But Apple is trying to sort out the issues. As another aside there are always little issues wen running in bootcamp as the way Apple runs displays and issues with Retina type screens has alway given me some moments. I had a Windows compliant 2D CAD program that would lose completed circles behind the drawing surface. They were still there you just couldn't see them. 1. If you want a 16 inch Macbook Pro then yes it is Intel or nothing at the moment. That comes with it's own set of problems due to the diffident cooling design of the laptop and the over heating of both the CPU and the GPU. There are ways around this but you need an external GPU to run external screens with out the fans screaming and the heat issues shortening the life of your expensive purchase. 2. Most of your native Apple stuff that was running in Catalina should run in Big Sur. But as usual there are always surprises. See Apple's Bootcamp problems above. 6. Apple doesn't really encourage firing OS running on their machines. There are ways to build machines that run Apple as well as Linux and Windows but that is not really a way forward for most people. 5. Not using Crossover I can't really be definitive but if Parallels works then so should Crossover. My own computer is reaching the age of replacement and I have no idea as to what I will do. I did look at the 16 inch Macbook Pro but because I run an older OS I would have to replace most of the my 3rd party software. It would also need an external GPU to happily run two external screens. Plus some third party software to rein in the CPU also to stop overheating. All this in in a package that doesn't allow you to replace the internal drive or upgrade the memory. I don't know if the board is as badly designed as the previous 15 inch where they had a 40 volt power connection for the screen next to a 3 volt one for the CPU on a power connection rail. And never drink anything near an Apple computer. Or operate in really humid conditions. All this for $6000 plus here in Australia. And then I'll need to replace two perfectly working large screens as they are Apple's flakey Thunderbolt 2 connected. And the current RISC computers do not support external GPUs. Such a typically brilliant move by Apple. Not sure if this is an RISC architectural issue or a Big Sur OS issue. Martin, the dust won't settle till mid 2021 with the new OS so you can hardly be expected to give advice on this issue. I have always treated using Templot on a Mac as my own risk. Regards, Matt M. |
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posted: 9 Dec 2020 03:10 from: Martin Wynne
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Many thanks Matt. I didn't follow all of that because I don't speak Apple, but clearly if I had any thoughts of getting a Mac, now is not the time. It does read as a catalogue of errors. For the Templot web site I think I should add a note of caution about intending to use a Mac for Templot in the long term. Which is a pity, but there isn't anything I can do about it. For those who have a religious objection to Windows there is always the option of Linux+Wine. Thanks again, Martin. |
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posted: 9 Dec 2020 03:38 from: Matt M.
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Not a problem Martin. I'm still trying to work out what is happening with this change. Apple runs a dynamic binary translator called Rosetta. Version 2 of Rosetta is Apple's attempt to make the transition to Apple Silicon seamless. So running existing non-updated Mac apps including plug-ins should be possible. Technically Linux should also be possible in some form of virtual mode. But the documentation that goes with Rosetta 2 suggests that there is no support for Virtual Machine applications? While it appears to support most Intel based apps including just-in-time compilers it doesn't support executable kernel extensions and VM's that virtualise x86_64 computer platforms. So there is no Native support for VM's to run Windows. The Apple Silicon changeover will take a couple of years supposedly. There are new CPUs with up to 32 high performance cores and various levels of efficiency cores. Possibly by late 2021. With in-house graphics cards with 64 to 128 dedicated cores. And mini LED displays coming as well. If they can solve their heat issues (not one of Apple's strong points) these may make it more attractive to wait and purchase one. Will have to make mine last another couple of years. Delivery dates will depend on the fabrication issues that you can have with new chip sets. Regards, Matt M. |
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posted: 11 Dec 2020 11:20 from: roythebus
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Well, having spent 3 and a half hours this morning and 8 hours yesterday on the help line to Apple and re-downloading updates that came up with the same error message at the end of it, this morning seems to have worked. Ive got rid of the latest Big Sur update and the Catalina upgrade that works on 64 bit. Hopefully I can get back to using Templot via wine or Crossover on here now. There seems to be an inbuilt fault on Big Sur with backups. My backup was made with Big Sur but the backup disc reckoned it as one with Catalina as the issue number, something Apple say can't happen. They are now looking into it. Each restore takes over 2 hours to download and install so I'm a bit weary at the moment, and it isn't finished yet as I have to manually restore all files form backup to computer with more help from the help desk! So if you have a Mac machine DO NOT upgrade to Catalina or Big Sur if you want to keep using Templot on there. |
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posted: 11 Dec 2020 12:39 from: Matt M.
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Hi Roy, You have my sympathies. At the beginning of the year I had to help a young relative whose previous Apple experience has been phones. Hitting the factory reset on a computer that is three OS's past its original one has some very annoying results. Really there isn't any real gain for Intel powered Macs with Catilina or Big Sur so personally I won't be doing that. Also unless you love stuffing around with interesting programming glitches I also wouldn't recommend allowing your Apple computer to update to a new OS till someone else works out the bugs. Still less annoying than the plethora of Windows 10 update problems that have followed me over the last two days. One panicked call from an elderly friend who's computer has lost the directory to his account. My auto electrician this morning who asked for help as his computer stopped talking to his printer after last night's update. And a mate who is now going to spend a day or so to find the new conflict that is causing the random Blue Screen. And these are the geniuses that are going to program your driverless car. Matt M. |
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posted: 11 Dec 2020 21:13 from: roythebus
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Hi to everyone, pleased to say the after all the hours spent re-installing the Mojave operating system, a clean version of Templot is now installed and seems to work well with Wine. I've even found the stored box files that I had been working on in the last few months. So all is not gloom and doom for those of us who want to use Templot with Mac machines, just don't go for Big Sur. Catalina, the 64-bit version, did run Templot with Wine but I didn't use it too much to discover any error or problems. With Matt M's comments above, not only do these whizz kids plan to program driverless cars, but 500-seat aircraft, at least 2 of which have ended in disaster, but trains as well. Thanks goodness Templot isn't safety critical! |
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posted: 11 Dec 2020 21:30 from: Martin Wynne
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roythebus wrote:Thanks goodness Templot isn't safety critical!Hi Roy, It can be addictive, which is not good for you! Always stop occasionally for a boiled egg.  Glad you got it working again and found your previous work. Martin. |
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posted: 12 Dec 2020 22:21 from: roythebus
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All is not gloom and doom for Mac users, just don't upgrade to Catalina or Big Sur. We get out eggs from a neighbour who keeps chickens. She hasn't been by for a while with eggs. |
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