Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 392Fn3 templates and newbie issues
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posted: 2 Apr 2008 02:38

from:

jeckardt
 
Beaverton - Oregon USA

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I'm a newbie to Templot, so please forgive me if this has been dealt with before.  I've tried to search this forum, but haven't found an answer to this.

I need to do a design in Fn3... that is, 1:20.3, 45mm track, narrow gauge spaced ties.  I've got to believe someone has already figured out the appropriate parameters to define a custom gauge for Fn3.  Can anyone offer me any advice on this?

Thank you for any help,

Joe

posted: 2 Apr 2008 03:19

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Joe,

There is a video showing how to customize a template for narrow-gauge in this topic:

topic 376

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Apr 2008 21:19

from:

jeckardt
 
Beaverton - Oregon USA

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Thank you, Martin, that was most helpful.  [I'll definately need to go through that video several times to catch all the details.]

Thanks,

Joe

posted: 9 Apr 2008 23:32

from:

jeckardt
 
Beaverton - Oregon USA

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I'm slowly getting my arms around this beast.  So many parameters, and so many interactions.  And the simpliest operation is often still a major undertaking.  But I AM making progress. :)  [I've gone through the tutorial twice now... obviously need to do it a third time now that I'm a bit more familiar with the whole system.]  BTW, I'm using 0.91.c.

Anyway, I've taken your starting drawing from this thread and am trying to mash it into the standards for my railway.  At the moment I'm fussing with the tie size and spacing.

For reference, my standards:

  • Fn3 (1:20.3)
  • 45mm gauge
  • 76inch ties  (3.75" actual)
  • 8.12inch tie width and thickness, both plain and tournout (0.4" actual)
  • 24.35inch tie spacing (0.8" actual gap between ties)
  • that works out to 12 ties per 24 foot rail
I've managed to get the plain track to meet the above, including getting the rail joint where I want it relative to the end ties.

For the straight turnout, I *think* I have the ties correct except for the lead-in ties, J1 and J2.  I think I have the lengths of J1 and J2 correct, but I can't seem to get the spacing correct.  What parameter affects this spacing?

The curved turnout is more difficult to be sure of, but again I think it's only the lead-in ties that are off, in this case J1.

The other issue I'm having with the straight turnout is that the diverging rails end at a vertical slice to the pad.  They should be cut perpendicular to each other, ready to accept the next template.  How do I correct this?

A couple of newbie general process questions...

If I want to modify an existing template that's already in the background, at present I am "deleting to control", making the changes, then "store to background".  That certainly works, but is this the right way to do it?  I have to answer that "do you really want to delete this template?" type question each time doing it this way.  And, of course, the template name moves back to the default and needs to be repositioned again after the store.

Is there a way to change the timber specs for an entire pad at one time?  At present I'm deleting each template to the control, fixing it, then storing it back.  Not too bad for only three templates on the page, but it strikes me there has got to be a better way.  At very least I would expect some way to set the "current defaults" on the control template, then apply those to each of the stored templates in turn.  I haven't found a way to do this that works.

I'm having a printing problem as well.  I'm using a Xerox Document Centre 440PS at work at the moment.  It's been calibrated.  It prints properly, but print area seems to be running into the "no print margin" of the printer.  That is, looking at a printed page oriented so margin writing is proper side up (i.e, paper is portrait), I see the bounding box along the top edge, but the printed coordinates are missing the top half.  (I'm not worried about that one since the image box is there, but mention it for context.)  That box line is about 8.5mm from edge of paper.  On the left margin, the bounding box is 7mm from the paper edge.  Bottom edge is very close, at just 1mm from the paper edge.  Bounding box on right is missing (i.e., in the "no print" margin of the printer) -- the printing stops at 3mm from the paper edge.  This all means that the printed mosaic can't be assembled as it doesn't quite overlap on that edge.  Is there any way to fudge the entire imate to the left by maybe 2mm, sacraficing some of the out-of-bounding-box stuff on that edge in favor of the missing image on the right edge?

Thank you for any help you can give me.

Joe

 

posted: 10 Apr 2008 04:59

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Joe,

I will answer your questions in separate messages.
I'm having a printing problem as well. I'm using a Xerox Document Centre 440PS at work at the moment. It's been calibrated. It prints properly, but print area seems to be running into the "no print margin" of the printer.
It sounds as if the printer driver is mis-reporting the paper dimensions to Templot instead of the printable area dimensions. There may be a setting somewhere for "borderless printing" which needs changing, or some settings related to "centralize on page" or similar.

However, it may be easier simply to widen the width of the trim margins. Click the print > trim margins > set custom trim margins... menu item. Click all the ? help buttons for more explanation. Here are the general notes:

---------------------------------

    Setting  Trim  Margins
 
Templot prints trim margins (normally in magenta-pink) around all four edges of each printed page comprising your template or track plan.
 
Trimming is necessary because very few printers can print to the extreme edge of the sheet of paper, or position it with great accuracy before printing on it.
 
By trimming each page along margin lines which are printed as part of the drawing image you are assured that the pages will fit together accurately.
 
Templot normally sets the trim margins to use nearly all of the printable area on each page. However, because printers and paper sheet sizes vary, this usually means that the trimmed page dimensions are not round figures and do not match the printed grid lines.
 
If you wish you can set the trim margins to your own requirements to suit the paper and printer in use. For example, if you are printing on paper which has been punched with tractor-feed or ring-binder holes you can increase the margins to avoid printing ink through the holes onto the printer roller.
 
You might also want to change the trim margins so that the trimmed page dimensions are in round figures or match the grid lines. This is useful if you want to mix pages printed on different printers or different paper sizes.
 
Because of the traditional paper sizes in use, finding a convenient combination of trimmed page size and grid spacing is not as straightforward as it might seem. Here are some suggested dimensions for A4 and US-Letter paper:
 
Grid spacings: 20 mm      trim to: 180 mm x 240 mm
Grid spacings: 20 mm      trim to: 180 mm x 260 mm (A4 only)
Grid spacings: 30 mm      trim to: 180 mm x 240 mm
Grid spacings: 30 mm      trim to: 180 mm x 270 mm (A4 only)
Grid spacings: 48 mm      trim to: 192 mm x 240 mm
Grid spacings: 60 mm      trim to: 180 mm x 240 mm
Grid spacings: 90 mm      trim to: 180 mm x 270 mm (A4 only)
Grid spacings: 62.5 mm   trim to: 187.5 mm x 250 mm
Grid spacings: 1.5"          trim to: 7.5" x 10.5" (A4 only)
Grid spacings: 2.5"          trim to: 7.5" x 10"
 
To set the trim margins and trimmed page size, click the
PRINT > TRIM MARGINS > SET CUSTOM TRIM MARGINS... menu item.
 
To set the grid spacings, click the PRINT > PRINTED GRID OPTIONS > GRID SPACINGS... menu item.
 
It is also possible to change from the standard "brick-bond" pattern of staggered alternate rows of pages to a more conventional in-line (rectilinear tiled) pattern. This makes it easier to match the trimmed page size to the grid lines or to use different sizes of paper in a single track plan, but loses the advantage of increased alignment accuracy which the staggered pattern provides. Select the PRINT > TRIM MARGINS > ALTERNATE ROWS menu options as required.
 
Click the PRINT > TRIM MARGINS > SHOW MAX PRINTABLE AREA menu item to show an outline around page a/1 (the bottom-leftmost page on the screen) showing the maximum available printable area for the current paper size and printer settings. This is a useful guide when setting custom trim margins. Note that this area is normally less than the actual paper sheet size.
 
When printing user the banner/roll paper option, any custom top margin and page length settings are ignored.
 
Handy Hints:
Remember that the TOP trim margin corresponds to the left edge of the page outline as shown on the screen, and the LEFT trim margin corresponds to the bottom edge of the page outline as shown on the screen.
 
If the drawing is not conveniently placed between the page margins, the page origin can be moved as an alternative to changing the trim margins. Click either the PRINT > PAGE ORIENTATION / ORIGIN > SET PAGE ORIGIN... menu item to enter the new page origin position directly, or the ACTION > MOUSE ACTIONS:PAD > MOVE PAGE ORIGIN menu item (SHIFT+CTRL-F10) to move the page origin with the mouse.
 
Likewise when printing the entire pad drawing at a reduced size, the printing size can be changed by mouse action to achieve a convenient fit to the pages. Click the ACTION > MOUSE ACTIONS:PAD > ADJUST PRINT SIZE menu item. The page outlines on the pad will change accordingly.
---------------------------------

regards,

Martin.

posted: 10 Apr 2008 06:48

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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jeckardt wrote:
The other issue I'm having with the straight turnout is that the diverging rails end at a vertical slice to the pad. They should be cut perpendicular to each other, ready to accept the next template. How do I correct this?
Hi Joe,

There's nothing to correct. The next template should be aligned at TVJP (the CTRL+6 peg position, on the vee rail joint), regardless of any slight gap or overlap in the actual rail ends as drawn.

To see this happen, just click the tools > make branch track menu item.

Alternatively, for a crossover the next template is aligned at TXP (CTRL+5 peg position).

To see this happen, just click the tools > make simple crossover menu item.

If you actually want the adjoining track connected at somewhere other than TVJP or TXP, you would move the peg along the centre-line using CTRL+F8 mouse action, and then use the peg and notch functions. More about them at:  http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_geometry.htm

To get a better understanding of the rail ends, try shortening and then extending the template using the F4 mouse action.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 10 Apr 2008 23:53

from:

jeckardt
 
Beaverton - Oregon USA

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Martin, my apologies, but pinging on this unanswered question...

jeckardt wrote:
For the straight turnout, I have the tie spacing correct except for the lead-in ties, J1 and J2.  I have the dimensions of J1 and J2 correct, but I can't seem to get the spacing between J1 and J2 correct.  What parameter affects this spacing?
Thanks,

Joe

posted: 11 Apr 2008 01:17

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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jeckardt wrote:
Martin, my apologies, but pinging on this unanswered question...
jeckardt wrote:
For the straight turnout, I have the tie spacing correct except for the lead-in ties, J1 and J2.  I have the dimensions of J1 and J2 correct, but I can't seem to get the spacing between J1 and J2 correct.  What parameter affects this spacing?
Hi Joe,

I have a half-completed draft reply on that, and likewise for your other questions.

Please bear with with me -- I have several orders, enquiries and other email matters to deal with first.

p.s. Did my reply about your printer problem help?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 11 Apr 2008 01:42

from:

jeckardt
 
Beaverton - Oregon USA

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Joe,

I have a half-completed draft reply on that, and likewise for your other questions.

Please bear with with me -- I have several orders, enquiries and other email matters to deal with first.

p.s. Did my reply about your printer problem help?

regards,

Martin.

Sorry for the impatience.  I was afraid that question got buried and lost in my long email.  I'll gladly be patient and await your replies.

Just trying out the printer suggestion a few minutes ago.  After a false start (set the trim margins first, then set the printer... and discovered after printing that setting the printer resets the trim margins back to defaults... as I should have anticipated), setting the right and bottom trip margins down by 5mm worked perfectly.  Thank you for that suggestion!

Thank you again for your patience in answering all these questions.  I hope to soon be self-sufficient and be able to leave you unbothered for a while.

Thanks,
Joe

Last edited on 11 Apr 2008 01:57 by jeckardt
posted: 11 Apr 2008 06:52

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Joe,

First of all make sure you understand that when Templot, or anyone in the UK, including me, says "switch" we mean only the moving points section of a turnout. Not the whole thing. I know this can be very confusing for users on the left side of the pond. :)

See:

startup_pad.pngstartup_pad.png

I admit that I don't have the foggiest idea what a "REA B-6" turnout is.
See the above diagram, showing a curved REA B-6 turnout.

(This diagram should be familiar to you, because it is on the very first "making a start" page at http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot_gs.htm . You may want to go back there and re-read the notes for this diagram.)

For the straight turnout, I *think* I have the ties correct except for the lead-in ties, J1 and J2.  I think I have the lengths of J1 and J2 correct, but I can't seem to get the spacing correct. What parameter affects this spacing?
The timbers (ties) in the switch front are part of the switch, and are set up as part of a custom switch. You can choose whether they should be standard plain track sleepers (normally 10" wide in the UK, but you have probably set something less for narrow-gauge) or turnout timbers (normally 12" wide, but you have probably etc.).

You can have up to 5 such ties, and you can set the spacing for each of them individually. The spacings are measured backwards from the blade tips (points). Setting a zero spacing terminates the sequence, so if you want only 2 such ties you would make the third spacing zero. However, the length of the switch front rails is also set up in a custom switch, so only those switch front ties which actually fit the available space on the rails will get drawn.
 
Likewise you can set up the spacings for all the other timbers in a switch (usually based on your chosen prototype data), measured forwards from the blade tips (points).

There is a video available showing these settings being created for a North Eastern Railway (UK) switch of the pre-grouping (pre-1923) period. See this message:

topic 299 - message 1779

If you drag the slider forward to 2 minutes 35 seconds into the video (elapsed time shows bottom-right) you will see the switch front spacings being entered. But before watching the video read the notes about it in the above message.

If you don't have any prototype switch data, you can let Templot use fixed timber spacings for the switch, and that's what I did in the sample templates which I uploaded for you. In that case Templot uses these settings (based on typical UK practice) which can't be changed:

Switch front is timbered, i.e. rather than sleeepered.
Spacing back from blade tips (points) to centre of J1 timber = 24.5"
Spacing back from there to centre of J2 timber = 27.5"
No other switch front timbers.
Spacing forward from blade tips (points) to centre of T1 timber = 4"
Remaining spacings up to the V-crossing as the current fill timber setting for the turnout.

Having said that they can't be changed, any timber anywhere in Templot can be adjusted for size and position on an individual basis using the real > shove timbers functions, and if you need more* than 5 timbers in the switch front (unlikely) you can add more using bonus timbers. But that's a very tedious way of setting up a custom switch, and limits your means of re-using it. If possible it's much better to create a full custom switch with all the required spacings which won't need subsequent shoving, as shown in the NER video.

*don't confuse this with adding approach track to the turnout (F3 mouse action) in front of the rail joint.

I will deal with your other questions in a separate message.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 12 Apr 2008 05:49

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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jeckardt wrote:
If I want to modify an existing template that's already in the background, at present I am "deleting to control", making the changes, then "store to background". That certainly works, but is this the right way to do it? I have to answer that "do you really want to delete this template?" type question each time doing it this way. And, of course, the template name moves back to the default and needs to be repositioned again after the store.
Hi Joe,

I think I may have confused you by providing finished customized templates before you had grasped the basics of Templot. It's quite difficult to dive straight into creating narrow-gauge and similar customized templates without first becoming a bit more familiar with building a track plan using the default settings. It can also be difficult to break away from the Windows Document Model, which Templot doesn't use.

Deleting to the control, making modifications, and storing again is the correct way to modify an existing background template. It's quite fast if you use the accelerator keys and keyboard shortcuts. This procedure is more usual when timber shoving and using partial templates. It's not often necessary when first creating a track plan. There is an option on the delete confirmation dialog "don't ask me again today" which will prevent the dialog appearing again in the session.

Note that while deleted from the storage box, the template is no longer included in the rolling backup. If you have previously done a lot of work on it, haven't saved a file, and fear your power cable may be chopped through by a JCB* at any moment, you may prefer to wipe to the control instead. This keeps an unused copy of the template in the storage box, which will be backed up and which you can revert to at any time. If you work this way you will accumulate a lot of unused templates in the storage box, but they can all be easily deleted in one go when the design is finished.

Likewise, there is no need to arrange the name labels neatly until the design is finished. Until then you can leave them higgledy-piggledy and hide them while not needed (END key toggle). If one is in the way, just bat it out of the way.

* a UK earth-moving machine. :)

Is there a way to change the timber specs for an entire pad at one time? At present I'm deleting each template to the control, fixing it, then storing it back. Not too bad for only three templates on the page, but it strikes me there has got to be a better way.
The templates which I provided were not intended to be individually modified, since each is derived from the same basic original template. The idea is that you modify just one of them, and then derive from it any other templates which you need to use. I will prepare a bit of video shortly showing what I mean.

There is a limited modify on rebuild option on the storage box, but it's not really needed here and may not be entirely suitable for what you want to do. Go to storage box notes and then CTRL+F for "modify on rebuild". If you use this function it is absolutely essential that you remember to switch it off afterwards, otherwise you will soon be in an awful muddle.

There is also a modify and rebuild popup menu item for each background template individually, which is safer to use. Go to 078e changes , scroll down to the item "new items in the pop-up menu for each background template" and click the info icon.

However, as I said, you don't actually need any of these "modify on rebuild" functions for what you are doing. I will prepare a video shortly.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 Apr 2008 10:56

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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jeckardt wrote:
For reference, my standards:
  • Fn3 (1:20.3)
  • 45mm gauge
  • 76inch ties  (3.75" actual)
  • 8.12inch tie width and thickness, both plain and tournout (0.4" actual)
  • 24.35inch tie spacing (0.8" actual gap between ties)
  • that works out to 12 ties per 24 foot rail
I've managed to get the plain track to meet the above, including getting the rail joint where I want it relative to the end ties.
Hi Joe,

You didn't provide much prototype info there, so I've invented some fictional switches and V-crossings (frogs) suitable for 3ft gauge. These could be used for Fn3 and also for Irish and Isle of Man n.g. tracks in 4mm and 7mm scales, in the absence of specific prototype details.

I used the following settings, which can easily be changed of course (box file linked below).

Scale 15mm/ft. (1:20.32)
Gauge 45mm.
Flangeway gap 2.7mm. (NMRA Fn3 spec)
Flangeway end gap 5.0mm.

Rail-top width 2in.

Adjacent track spacings 7ft way (10ft-4in centres).

Sleeper length 72in (6ft). I think your 76in figure for this is very unlikely, 6ft or 6ft-6in is much more likely in practice.

Sleeper and timber width 8in. For UK use I think perhaps 9in is more likely.

Plain track 12 sleepers per 24ft rail. 9 spacings at 24.5", 2 spacings at 23.25", joint spacing 21" (10.5" rail-end to sleeper).

I've continued this proper closed-up joint spacing into the turnouts, although how prototypical this is for n.g. I don't know. It certainly doesn't apply in the photo below.

Switches and V-crossings based on 24" timber centres, rail joints spaced 21", turnout fill timber spacing set at 25" maximum.

Check and wing rails (all angles): working length 63", extension/reach length 39", bent flares length 9" to match the typical short n.g. look and keep the flares clear of the fixings. See photo below.

Wing fronts span 2 timbers (all angles). Vee rails span 4 timbers (all angles). Blunt nose 1/2" wide overlapping timber centre by 3".

A range of loose-heel switches based on 2ft increments, 5ft - 11ft.

Heel spread 4.5", giving 2.5" clearance behind the 2" wide rail. This is wider than the Fn3 flangeway, so there is no need to move the loose heel for the model. There will be such need in 4mm scale unless P4 wheels and flangeways (or finer) are used.

Loose heels between the timbers (loose fishplates). Switch stock rails staggered one joint spacing. Switch fronts timbered with 2 timbers.

Switch sizes and V-crossing angles can be combined as required, but the sizes shown are close to "natural" and convenient. The longer sizes are intended for curving as required. All V-crossings in the file are curviform pattern to match typical n.g. practice, but will need to be changed to regular or generic pattern to make crossovers.

File is for 15mm/ft scale, with quoted radii accordingly:

fn3_15mm_samples.pngfn3_15mm_samples.png

Download the file from fn3_15mm_samples.box

(In Firefox, right-click and Save Link As...)

Here's a picture of a 2ft-6in gauge V-crossing which I used for inspiration. Notice the rail joints in the stock rails aligned with the wing rail front joints. Templot doesn't show these, so they can be added by hand on the prints. There is no evidence here of closed up joint spacing, just the reverse in fact. Narrow-gauge track tends to be like that. :(

The check rail lengths in the file might be shortened a bit to better match the picture. But with the overscale model flangeways I think the extra working length in front of the knuckle is worth having.

wl_xing.jpgwl_xing.jpg

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 Apr 2008 22:07

from:

jeckardt
 
Beaverton - Oregon USA

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Thank you, Martin!  This is far more help than I would have ever asked for.  I greatly appreciate your efforts.

It will take me a while to slug through all those number and figure out how each is applied, but is great that I now have a set of parameters that are actually close to correct to work with.

Regarding tie dimensions, the dimensions I am using are a conscious trade-off between prototype and modeling considerations.  Prototype length should indeed be 6ft-6in long, which works out to 3.842in for 1:20.3.  The length I'm proposing, 3.75in, is a tad short for 1:20.3 (by 2in) and a tad long for 1:24 (by 6in), but still within the range of prototype practice for both scales.  [The railway will be built as 1:20.3, but I would like it to also look reasonable for 1:24 equipment sitting on the track.]  Experimentally I have found that the 3.75in x 0.4in x 0.4in tie is visually acceptable, looks great at 1:20.3, and doesn't look too oversized with the 1:24 equipment.  Anyway, a lot of thought and research has gone into the decision to use a 3.75" actual length tie.

Thank you again for the effort you have put into answering my questions and providing these sample templates.  I am most impressed both with Templot's capabilities and flexibility, and with your customer support.

Thank you,
Joe

posted: 15 Apr 2008 22:11

from:

jeckardt
 
Beaverton - Oregon USA

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Martin Wynne wrote:
The timbers (ties) in the switch front are part of the switch, and are set up as part of a custom switch. You can choose whether they should be standard plain track sleepers (normally 10" wide in the UK, but you have probably set something less for narrow-gauge) or turnout timbers (normally 12" wide, but you have probably etc.).

THAT'S the bit I was missing... that "sleepers" have fixed parameters while "timbers" allow manually entering the spacing.

Thank you,

Joe
Last edited on 16 Apr 2008 02:31 by jeckardt
posted: 16 Apr 2008 02:30

from:

jeckardt
 
Beaverton - Oregon USA

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Heel spread 4.5", giving 2.5" clearance behind the 2" wide rail. This is wider than the Fn3 flangeway, so there is no need to move the loose heel for the model. There will be such need in 4mm scale unless P4 wheels and flangeways (or finer) are used.

Loose heels between the timbers (loose fishplates). Switch stock rails staggered one joint spacing. Switch fronts timbered with 2 timbers.

I have successfully squared all of the parameters and values that you gave in this reply with the settings in Templot, and believe I understand what those settings are doing, except...

Where is the "loose heels" and "heel spread" set?  [I know what they are, just can't find where they are set in Templot.]


Thank you,

Joe

posted: 16 Apr 2008 05:20

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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jeckardt wrote
Where is the "loose heels" and "heel spread" set?  [I know what they are, just can't find where they are set in Templot.]
Hi Joe,

There is a video available showing these settings being created for a North Eastern Railway (UK) switch of the pre-grouping (pre-1923) period. See this message:

topic 299 - message 1779

The switch lead and heel spread is being set 1minute 40 seconds into the video (elapsed time shows bottom-right). But before watching the video read the notes about it in the above message.

I'm sorry it's a very scruffy video and hasn't been tidied up in any way.

Note that whether a switch is loose-heel or flexible isn't actually set anywhere, because it doesn't affect the geometry. It's purely a constructional matter when you come to build it, based on your known prototype.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 16 Apr 2008 23:16

from:

jeckardt
 
Beaverton - Oregon USA

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Martin Wynne wrote:
The switch lead and heel spread is being set 1minute 40 seconds into the video

Ah!  "heal spread" == "Offset at the heel" in the "custom switch data entry" window.

Thanks,

Joe



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