Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 7 Nov 2008 21:36 from: Martin Wynne
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Dear all, Today I'm working on John Watt's irregular diamonds, and I'm very aware that the code I'm using -- both for the diamonds and for mouse-action adjustment of check rails -- is now 5 years old since it was written, and it still hasn't made it into a Pug release. I'm beginning to despair that it ever will.  I've written about this problem several times before, but I'm no nearer a solution. In recent months I have been able to spend almost no time at all on program development. All my Templot time has been spent on user support, not only on here but also on RMweb and elsewhere, and in emails. I recently turned 60, and I'm getting genuinely worried that the grey cells will fail on me before I can get everything done in Templot that I want to do. Already there are areas of the code which were crystal clear when I wrote them 20 years ago, but are now getting distinctly foggy. I'm worried that in 10 years time I will have forgotten how Templot works entirely! On top of that, my health is not being helped by hour after hour sat at the computer every day, and other things in my life are being ignored. The garden has become a jungle, my camera is covered in dust, and the Land-Rover has been waiting over 12 months for a new timing-belt. And I would like to build a model railway of my own one day! So I would really like to spend what Templot time I have, actually on Templot. While I still feel that I can keep on top of it. That leaves the unanswered question of how to cope with the volume of user support. When Randy Pfeiffer on 3rd PlanIt largely ignored user support for a year while he worked on a new version, the reputation of his product nose-dived. I would hate for that to happen to Templot. I must admit that I'm a little disappointed that this Templot Club forum hasn't developed into more of a user community. Currently there are several topics which haven't received much, or any, response. Richard and Raymond are waiting for some comments on their track plans -- I'm sure that if they had been posted in the Layout Planning section of RMweb they would have been flooded with ideas and suggestions. Tim David posted a link to the Grayrigg accident report which included some detailed track diagrams -- no response. He also posted pictures of a fascinating star variation on the reversing triangle -- no response. JimH posted a pic of the famous Newcastle Central junctions -- no response. And so on. Now I could write some response to these topics myself -- I feel that if no-one else replies it is up to me to do so on a forum which is hosted on my web site. But while I'm doing that, I'm not working on Templot. And by the time I've finished replying, there will be another email waiting attention. I'm not too sure what I'm saying here, but if you want to see Templot develop, I do need some help in supporting existing users, to leave me enough time to get on with it. Suggestions for how that might be done welcome. For example, would anyone like to make a better reply for new Templot user Michel at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=488690#p488690 than I have so far managed? regards, Martin. |
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posted: 7 Nov 2008 23:39 from: davelong click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin Would it not be possible for you to produce perhaps a stand alone programme which can create irregular diamonds, with the ability to save/export to box files which then can be added to your normal templot session. Maybe a skeleton version of templot or the development pug you have but with the rest of the templot features ripped out? Would save all the hassle of trying to incorporate the new code into the current Templot code which I presume is now of substantial size and complexity. Dave |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 00:12 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi Martin I'd like to make some comments which I hope you take as being constructive! Currently there are several topics which haven't received much, or any, response. Richard and Raymond are waiting for some comments on their track plansOK - I've found the post from Raymond offering suggestions on his track plan, but Richard? I can't see a post from a Richard that has had no responses. This though brings me to one of my bugbears, which you can thank Iain Rice for. I mean absolutely no criticism of anyone who has submitted track plans, but in virtually every case that's all they are - track plans. I feel that to be able to comment, I need to be able to visualise the layout in my head, in 3D. I need to be able to walk around it as if I was actually there on the ground, and see it in "real life". I want to walk around a building and see what's there. A track plan doesn't do that for me. (With Raymond's plan, thanks to some shapes, I can start to see it, but I wonder if what I'm seeing is what is intended?) Your next sentence sums it up:- I'm sure that if they had been posted in the Layout Planning section of RMweb they would have been flooded with ideas and suggestionsYes - although I don't visit RMWeb much, when I do see something posted there they often are more in the form of layout plans, not track plans. Look at Michel's layout plan, for instance. It's much easier to visualise it as a completed layout. I hope people can appreciate the difference. The layout designer can (presumably) visualise the finished layout, but they need to be able to get it across to others. Without that, all that can really be commented on are the technical aspects of the track itself. Or maybe that's all that's wanted? I'm not too sure what I'm saying here, but if you want to see Templot develop, I do need some help in supporting existing users, to leave me enough time to get on with it. Suggestions for how that might be done welcome.Can I suggest that you may have been your own worst enemy here? Various people including myself have (I hope) helped people in the past. Then on another topic you post such a complete reply with so much detail that I feel that my own efforts have been left somewhat in the shade! All I can think of suggesting is that you leave responding for a few days to see if others respond first? When you get in first, there's never anything left to clarify or answer  It sometimes takes me a day or so mulling over the problem by which time you've replied in far greater depth than I ever could!As far as the forum "community" goes, I suspect you know my thoughts on web forums! I felt it was more of a community when it was primarily an email group (others will disagree). Really, all I see in my Templot email folder is a whole load of anonymous emails from forum@templot.com. Even if the subject line attracts my attention enough to look further, it doesn't feel like a community. That must be just me though because I can see how successful RMWeb is, despite not really being able to find my way around it - I suspect I'm missing an awful lot. And talking of RMWeb, why are you offering Templot support on there? Surely the place for that is here where it can be shared with all Templot users? It also means that support questions might be answered by other Templot users. Just some thoughts. Paul |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 00:46 from: Dave Summers
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Martin, I read what you said and have every sympathy. I was going to make a few comments but then read Paul's contribution. Paul has said everything (and more) that I was going to say. I would totally endorse his analysis. Please allow yourself to focus on your preferred task and leave the rest of the group to (hopefully!) develop a self-help ethic. Cheers. Dave |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 06:56 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Paul, Many thanks for your comments. I can't see a post from a Richard that has had no responses.Richard Spratt invited comments on his Penrhos project. There have been a couple of replies, but no actual discussion of his track plan or layout ideas. Really, all I see in my Templot email folder is a whole load of anonymous emails from forum@templot.com. Even if the subject line attracts my attention enough to look further, it doesn't feel like a community.Yes, that's been niggling me for ages too. Thanks for the nudge to finally do something about it. I have battled the PHP script into submission, and you should now see the member user name in the the From field of Templot Club emails*. You may need to adjust your filter settings accordingly (there is now a filter tag in the Subject field).And talking of RMWeb, why are you offering Templot support on there? Surely the place for that is here where it can be shared with all Templot users? It also means that support questions might be answered by other Templot users.It was suggested to me that Templot was effectively invisible to a great swathe of the hobby outside of the "scale" societies, so some banner ads on RMweb seemed a good way to address that: templot_banner1.png  templot_banner2.png  Andy Y offered me a package deal including dedicated forum space in the "Trade Showcase" area of RMweb. The idea was that Templot would be one of many products featured there, but so far there has only ever been two. I have heard it said that some folks find this Templot Club forum goes a bit over their head, and are put off from joining and posting for that reason. The forum space on RMweb seemed an answer to that, where RMwebbers could ask basic questions about Templot in a familiar environment. It wasn't intended to be a replacement or alternative to Templot Club, just a sort of staging post on the way here. In the event I have found myself posting detailed replies there which would have been better on here where everyone can join in, so the format needs a bit more thinking about. Likewise elsewhere on RMweb questions about Templot and track building frequently crop up, and I do my best to be helpful. But it often means that I'm posting stuff there which others here might want to see. If you search "Templot" on RMweb you will find over 1000 references, which is amazing in just the 8 months that the ads have been running. So far the ads have been diplayed 5,014,686 times and clicked 2,937 times. *on the "Emailed Messages". The basic reply/PM notification messages are still from the forum address. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 14:27 from: Brian Lewis
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Martin Wynne wrote: If you search "Templot" on RMweb you will find over 1000 references, which is amazing in just the 8 months that the ads have been running. So far the ads have been diplayed 5,014,686 times and clicked 2,937 times. Err.... Yes..... But, has this resulted in an explosion of additional sales? I do sympathise with you Martin. Soldering and track construction are black arts for many folk. I only get 3-4 questions by email each day, because most folk tend to telephone. It just comes with the territory I guess. But as I have said many times before, the weakness of Templot is the lack of simple 'How to..' guides, published in written form. Videos and quick snapshots on screen are all very well, but they can never take the place of written text. Regards Brian Lewis Carrs - C+L Finescale |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 14:49 from: Martin Wynne
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Brian Lewis wrote: Martin Wynne wrote:If you search "Templot" on RMweb you will find over 1000 references, which is amazing in just the 8 months that the ads have been running. So far the ads have been diplayed 5,014,686 times and clicked 2,937 times. Hi Brian, I don't think I would go as far as "explosion" , but I've been very pleased with the results and I shall certainly be renewing the ads when the time comes.regards, Martin. |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 15:30 from: Martin Wynne
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davelong wrote: Would it not be possible for you to produce perhaps a stand alone programme which can create irregular diamonds, with the ability to save/export to box files which then can be added to your normal templot session. Maybe a skeleton version of templot or the development pug you have but with the rest of the templot features ripped out?Hi Dave, Thanks for the suggestion, but unfortunately it's not practical. There are significant unfinished chunks, there are no Help notes, and the file format is not strictly compatible as it stands. It would take as long to get it to a releasable state as to incorporate the code into the full versions.Also it would create a support nightmare -- we currently have 3 versions on the go, 074, 082 and 091, which is bad enough. Adding a 4th 081 special version with significant differences and a lot of stuff missing just doesn't bear thinking about! regards, Martin. |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 16:25 from: Alan Turner
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Martin Wynne wrote: we currently have 3 versions on the go, 074, 082 and 091, which is bad enough.I would go along with Paul, don't jump in so early. See what develops. As regards the above isn't it time to do a Microsoft and put a deadline to 074 and 082 and say no more support after such and such a date? After all it's not as if there is any extra cost of upgrading, unlike Microsoft? Alan |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 16:32 from: JFS
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Some interesting philosophical musings..... Martin, I think your user-support is excellent and you have helped me out several times. Having read what you said about the irregular diamonds code being 5 years old however, almost makes me wish I had not distracted you .I think there is a fine line between providing user support, and providing a layout-design consultancy service and it is very important not to cross that line - perhaps your desire to support the user means that sometimes you get pulled over that line. This might cause "resentment" :specs: - for example, I spent a week of spare time building a complex junction with half a million irregular diamonds - (well, almost 200 partial templates) which I posted in this forum - only to find that someone else has got you to do it for them  .there might be two reasons why I do not respond to posts requesting help... 1. you beat me to it 2. I am not confident that I have the right answer to give. What to do about it???? I suggest some changes to the "rules" in the forum. Firstly, there should be an area of the forum in which you DO NOT RESPOND. All requests for feedback / constructive criticisms on layout design etc should be addressed there only - any of us could and should do this stuff. Secondly, responses to requests for help on use of the software should be restricted to giving people a reference to an "on-line" manual. This way, over time, an electronic manual can be built-up. If someone asks a question for which an on-line reference does not exist, then it has revealed a gap in the manual which needed to be filled in any case. Otherwise, much of what is posted by you here gets "lost" as searching the forum for a previously-given answer is a pain, takes up too much time. Often, you must find yourself giving the same answer over and over again. Thirdly, you should have the "right" to put a particular post into an area for "general comment" - implying that anyone could respond, therefore you are not going to do so if an answer is forthcoming, then great, otherwise keep waiting.....Fourthly, give yourself the right to declare yourself unavailable for a few weeks at a time - if we know you are "away" it encourages us to help others, and dissuades us from posting For me Templot's great strength is it power - unfortunately, this means complexity and that demands a good instruction book!! We are a bit lacking in that department at the moment and that creates a pile of demands for help from new users - myself included. My proposed ranking for your limited time (without claiming any right to preach!!!).... 0. Enjoy yourself. 1. Consolidate all the current releases - I think they cause major confusion for people (ie me) 2. Pull together an up-to-date on-line reference - not least because it is a very good advert for the product - into which all technical information additions get put. 3. DO THE IRREGULAR DIAMONDS THING!!!!  I am near despair!4. Chat to us all here 5. Put right those of us who cannot be bothered to read the ******* instructions. 6. CHARGE for design consultancy - spend the money on getting the man to do the garden / paint the house .Hope some of that helps! Best regards and keep up the good work, Howard. |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 17:16 from: Richard Spratt
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Martin, I think Howard is spot on with his reply and has said most of what I wsa going to say. I certainly didn't expect you to reply to my Penrhos Critique. It hasn't helped that AOL pulled all there web pages last weekend. In fact it's taken a couple of minutes to find it on the forum and I now think it's in the wrong section? Maybe you should find a computer nerd who is as interested in track as you and pay him to do some of the coding? That way you would have time to do paid layout design consultancy or finish off the coding. You could also slowly pull out of replying to RMweb questions except those along the lines of 'does it do...?'. Personally I think you're very lucky. There aren't many in our hobby that have managed to share their interest with so many people as you have. A few fortunate will get to display their handiwork as part of a large layout at a big exhibition. Many will be able to show there layout at a local show. And most will share the growing pains with a few close friends. But I reckon you've shared your interest with more than most. Richard |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 17:30 from: JimH
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I totally agree with the sentiments of others. All I can really say is that I really appreciate the software, it's incredibly powerful and what a revelation to be able to design track prototypically. Naturally this is a complex process raising many questions. Professional design software is of course many hundreds of times more expensive, but the companies that produce this can then afford to have staff to create manuals and offer user consultancy - albeit at a cost. I think as a small business it's very difficult to work "on" rather than "in" the product and naturally your desire to support all the users is going to be very demanding when you've got such an excellent product. Don't be too tough on yourself, I think it's great that you've had the idea and then the ability to create Templot in the first place! To be honest I'm still learning to use the software and so don't feel qualified to necessarily advise on what to do. I've also noticed a wealth of material building up within the forum and most questions I've had have been discussed before; it's a case of looking for them! Perhaps what we should do is build up a "knowledge base" ourselves that becomes a self developing database and manual in one, regulated a la wikipedia by us the users? Providing the headings are clear enough this would be easier than looking through video tutorials, messages etc. as we could have it all in one place? |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 17:35 from: Raymond
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I have to agree with Richard and Howard. I've been using Templot on and off for years and still have not begun to unravel all its features. I am only now beginning to get to grips with transitions. But, by using it and experimenting, I solve most problems. I agree that we as a group should be far more self-helping and learn to rely on you far, far less. Regards Raymond |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 18:44 from: Glen Suckling
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Martin, I have been following this discussion closely but have not joined in because I would just be echoing everyone else's comments. However, it has reached the point where I have to say my bit; so here it is: 1) TEMPLOT is a fantastic program. 2) Your user support is unequalled for any other program that I know. Particularly your willingness to tweak and develop based upon the user's input. (Larger software ompanies please take note!) 3) When I realize that TEMPLOT is strictly a one man operation I am in awe. I have no idea how you do it. 4) I wish that I could offer some meaningful input to help to relieve your situation. I think that many good ideas have been put forward but ultimately you are the one who has to make the decision on your path forward. 5) Whatever you decide you may rest assured that I, and most of the members of this forum, will stand behind you and support your decision in any way that we can. Glen |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 21:17 from: John Lewis
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{Inreply to Richard's suggestions] Or, better, get the nerd to write the Help documentation. If it was in .pdf format,users could choose whether or not to print it out. John |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 21:19 from: John Lewis
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Richard Spratt wrote: It hasn't helped that AOL pulled all there web pages last weekend. In fact it's taken a couple of minutes to find it on the forum and I now think it's in the wrong section? Perhaps you could put some of the pages on the Templot forum? I hope they are not lost! John |
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posted: 8 Nov 2008 22:34 from: Ian Everett
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Martin Wynne wrote:I have battled the PHP script into submission, and you should now see the member user name in the the From field of Templot Club emails*. You may need to adjust your filter settings accordingly (there is now a filter tag in the Subject field). I must say that knowing the name of the sender before I open the email now makes the Templot Forum much more attractive to this user. Ian |
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| Posted: 8 Nov 2008 22:59 |
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peterpeg click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images spacer.gif 
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Martin I do agree with the comment Brian has made re a textual manual, it would have been a great help to me since my stroke my cognitive powers are somewhat reduced to say the least. You may recall I asked you about this many moons ago, surely there must be another Templot expert out there, or is it that you don't wish to share your coding with another I can understand and appreciate your dilemna. You have said it yourself having turned sixty recently (join the club) you are finding the memory is not what it was. I still have not mastered Templot beyond printing out the turnout and straight track templates. I cannot think of anyone else who attends to Templot queries the way you do, its no wonder you are feeling stressed, I marvel at your patience, but remember charity begins at home. Finally I read all the questions and replies and save the appropiate ones to me in a Templot file could someone not gather together the info and maybe start a getting started manual... My very best to you Peter Hepworth. Brian Lewis wrote: Martin Wynne wrote:If you search "Templot" on RMweb you will find over 1000 references, which is amazing in just the 8 months that the ads have been running. So far the ads have been diplayed 5,014,686 times and clicked 2,937 times.
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from:
Paul Boyd
| Loughborough - United Kingdom |
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Yes, that's been niggling me for ages too. Thanks for the nudge to finally do something about it.Excellent - that's much better, thank you. Instantly I see a post from Brian Lewis - they're always a good read one way or another
It does make the emails much more personal when they come from a named person.The RMWeb support thing does sound a bit of a dilemma. I guess the problem is working out where to draw the line between general enquiries about Templot and providing detailed technical support. I really do think you ought to encourage RMWeb members to come here once the questions get technical though. It sounds like you're effectively running two separate support forums - not good!
Cheers
from:
Jim Guthrie
| United Kingdom |
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Martin,
I'm not too sure what I'm saying here, but if you want to see Templot develop, I do need some help in supporting existing users, to leave me enough time to get on with it. Suggestions for how that might be done welcome.
I do a bit of programming for my business and I find it difficult to concentrate on the programming work when I have to do it. I find that I have to designate programming time in my working day and ignore everything else if I am going to get anything done. That means no Internet and no phone calls and no one else around - a sort of hermit-like existence.
But it gets the work done, even if it's only two or three hours a day. I don't know what your personal circumstances are, but something similar might help. It is noticeable that your responses to messages on this group and RMWEB are close to instantaneous and it is notable when someone else beats you to the answer. Maybe attending to the internet when it suits you might be a better bet. After all, Templot users can surely wait for a few hours, or even a day, to get an answer. And switching the answer phone on to deal with phone calls gets rid of the worst source of disruption in our modern day life.
Sorry if this might seem like teaching egg sucking but I recognised the situation from personal experience.
Jim.
from:
Alan Turner
| Dudley - United Kingdom |
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I replied earlier but permit me to have another bite of the cherry.
The software business model that I am used to and accept is that the software publisher;
1. Publishes the software
2. supports the software in so far as bugs are concerned. By that I mean they acknowledge the reported bug and flag it for correction in the next software release, or if serious provides a patch. If applicable a "Work-around" can be provided.
I don't believe that customers can expect anything else.
I am amazed at the free upgrades as well. Bug fix upgrades fair enough but increased usability?
What you are doing, and forgive me I know its your business and no one else’s, is doing that and also at every opportunity telling your customers how to use the programme and also doing free design consultancy work.
You will say that comes about by not having a proper manual (you've said that before). I say what do you expect for £50! There is more than enough on this forum and the web site for more than a reasonable manual. The videos alone are more than enough.
Perhaps you are denying others the chance of a business opportunity by usurping the teaching of TEMPLOT from such as Missended Abbey or Hobby Holidays (no connection with either of these by the way) or anyone else. Microsoft or AutoCAD don't respond to "how do I do that" queries and I suggest perhaps neither should you.
Anyway those are my thoughts on the matter and of course, as I have said, it’s your business. However if it's a choice between an enhanced and continuing TEMPLOT and solving everyone’s problems then I know where my vote goes.
Alan
from:
Raymond
| Bexhill-on-sea - United Kingdom |
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Regards
Raymond
from:
polybear
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Perhaps you are denying others the chance of a business opportunity by usurping the teaching of TEMPLOT from such as Missended Abbey or Hobby Holidays (no connection with either of these by the way) or anyone else. Microsoft or AutoCAD don't respond to "how do I do that" queries and I suggest perhaps neither should you.
Anyway those are my thoughts on the matter and of course, as I have said, it’s your business. However if it's a choice between an enhanced and continuing TEMPLOT and solving everyone’s problems then I know where my vote goes.
Hi All,
I've been reading the responses to Martin's original post with great interest - it's certainly a subject that has created some creative suggestions (and hopefully useful for Martin).
Maybe Martin's excellent support comes as a result of mixing a hobby with a business - i.e. Martin responds to queries both to support his (excellent) product but also responds to others because he enjoys doing so and we are fortunate enough that he is prepared to pass on his knowledge and techniques.
My suggestions/advice would be (in no particular order!):
1. Create quality programming time for yourself Martin - none of us on the Templot Forum would feel the world has ended if we wait a few days for a response to a question. And it would give a chance for others to chip in with advice too, before you beat everyone to it!
2. Create quality personal time for yourself Martin!!
3. Consider upgrading the Tutorials to be in line with the latest software version of Templot, and advise all Templot users (new and old) to upgrade. This makes sense insofar as learning on 074b then finding that things have changed on 091c doesn't help the new user. Once you do this then you can issue a deadline (e.g. 3 months after release of a new S/W version) when you remove specific support to an "obsolete" S/W version. Any user preferring (for whatever reason) to remain with a previous version of Templot would need to rely on "the self-help group", or consider upgrading.
4. I would imagine that much of Martin's time gets taken up in answering "the same old questions" time and time again. I feel an extension to the FAQ would help greatly to minimise this - whilst doing a search of the Forum posts can give the answer a person is looking for it does rely on that person knowing what question to ask in the first place!!
5. Maybe some Templot users could help Martin re: searching thru' the previous posts (e.g. allocate a batch of posts - maybe 1 to 500, 501, to 1000 etc.?) and generate a sensible (read obvious!) FAQ heading followed by the answer. These could be (if possible) held in a "Stickies" section(s), maybe divided under sub-headings (e.g. Turnouts, Printing etc) and include the Templot S/W version and maybe also a link to the original post. If Martin feels this would be useful and would lighten his workload then I'll put my name down for a batch of posts....
On a general note (and purely for interest/clarification) whilst I imagine Hobby Holidays runs courses partly to make a profit (I'm guessing here!) I have it on very good authority that the Missenden Abbey courses are run on a not-for-profit basis by the organiser (i.e. the Modeller, who is liable for any shortfall personally).
Best Regards,
Brian Tulley
from:
Martin Wynne
| West Of The Severn - United Kingdom |
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Thanks for all the kind words and suggestions. I'm still pondering matters. But I would like to respond to this:
Alan Turner wrote:
Perhaps you are denying others the chance of a business opportunity by usurping the teaching of TEMPLOT from such as Missenden Abbey or Hobby Holidays (no connection with either of these by the way) or anyone else.Hi Alan,
I don't feel any concern to provide others with a business opportunity. If someone offered a course in the use of Templot I should regard it as a failure on my part. The intention is to provide a program which any reasonably intelligent modeller can use by themselves. I'm concerned that if such a course was offered it would kill Templot stone dead -- I will do all I can to prevent the idea gaining ground that anyone needs to go on a course in order to use it. It's just not true, as the many hundreds of layouts being built on Templot designs demonstrate.
I am amazed at the free upgrades as well. Bug fix upgrades fair enough but increased usability?Upgrades will remain free until I feel that Templot has reached the end of version zero -- there's a long way still to go. I regard the upgrades as simply filling in missing features which should have been there in the first place.
regards,
Martin.
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