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posted: 21 Dec 2008 00:06 from: Brian Lewis
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An important announcement by C+L Finescale Whilst watching Norman Solomon building turnouts on the latest Activity Media DVD - constructing templates, sticking down timbers, etc. - I was struck by the thought that I was doing this 40 years ago. Locomotives and rolling stock are so much more accurate that they were even ten years ago? So why haven't available track components reflected this improvement? Folk still create trackwork by building individual turnouts and 'stitch' them together with plain track using 'one size fits all' generic track templates. Surely we can do better than this? Well we have and as from the new year, a new era in track construction begins. Boat and aircraft kit manufacturers use lasers to cut components with amazing accuracy - as do model railway kit manufacturers in the US. It doesn't seem to happen here. But we are going to change all that. So for the past month I have been taking prototype track construction plans and converting them into files readable by laser. Forget sleepers, forget turnout timbers. Instead, we offer complete track and turnout bases in laser cut ply. And not just generic versions. You want 44'6" GWR track panels, you can have 'em. LNWR 60'? NER 45'? MR 45' ? They are on our workbench. Turnout bases which you can curve like flexitrack, including NER interlaced, MR with 14" timbers where the Midland positioned them - the possibilities are endless - the list is endless. For narrow gauge modellers, we have made a start with 0n30 bases, and four sizes of spikes and flat bottom rail to suit. You do not need templates or layout generating programmes - although our system will work well with Templot and similar. With no more than a back of envelope sketch, you use the bases to create the track formation, glue them down. Ballast it at the same time perhaps, then add chairs and rail. With components such as C+L's soldered up Common Crossings and ready to use Switch Blades, track making is as easy as any other facet of our hobby. If you still prefer riveted construction, you can use any of the above. And we also have separate 8'-6" and 9' sleepers, with accurately spaced holes for both EM & P4 - as I said previously, no more 'one size fits all'. These are complemented by timbers, 18" long and 10", 12" and 14" wide - all cut by laser, with an accuracy that no guillotine or slitting saw can match. And due to the gauge specific sizes, you can use rivets with smaller heads, thus easing the job of adding cosmetic chairs. We are making a start in in 4mm, but will supply 2mm, 3mm, S Gauge, 7mm and Scale7 ASAP. We have no fixed timetable - if you want something now, just ask. But there is more. Buildings - nothing can cut them as accurately as a laser. And not just wooden buildings - I have been engraving brick and ashlar patterns - and very good they look. Tramway bases with cobble infill are a possibility. Even after all that, there is more. Some of you may know that the C+L store houses the part completed LT layout, 'Old Cross', whilst the WSM P4 group are 'in hibernation'. I have been looking at the 3rd and 4th rail components. They are fiddly to assemble and we know we can do better. (C+L has always supplied SR 3rd rail chairs in 7mm, so why not 4mm)? So we are having the three types of LT ramp cast now in nickel silver. Third and fourth rail support chairs are being cast in brass and the two types of chair base are at the etchers now. To complement these, we have sleepers with laser cut holes. Oh! and to complete the picture, side protection boards and support brackets are being etched as well. (Looking at these, I did start thinking about etching water troughs, but.... perhaps not). All this will be put onto our web site early in the New Year. Lasers are expensive - ours cost US$25,000. and are thus beyond the reach of the average modeller. But it is active modellers who usually have the most constructive ideas. So, as time allows, we will be offering a subcontract service. Finally, may I thank you for your past support, wish you the compliments of the season and pray that 2009 deals gently with us all. Regards Brian Lewis Carrs - - C+L Finescale |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 00:30 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi BrianAn important announcement by C+L FinescalePhew - I had visions of an "...is closing down" type of message! Folk still create trackwork by building individual turnouts and 'stitch' them together with plain track using 'one size fits all' generic track templates.No we don't - we use Templot Seriously, this sounds an interesting idea, and I look forward to seeing more info on your website in due course. Please let us know once the information is up there. Presumably we could give you a Templot-generated file (DXF?) for a complex track formation (subject to any size constraints) and a single base comes back. Have I understood that correctly? Cheers |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 01:29 from: Brian Lewis
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Hi Paul. I believe you work at Clevedon. You could always pop in. Size constraints. No real limit, but no piece can be larger than 610 x 458mm - that 2' x 1.5'. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 02:02 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Brian, Sounds great! But one thing is puzzling me. You wrote: You do not need templates or layout generating programmes - although our system will work well with Templot and similar. With no more than a back of envelope sketch, you use the bases to create the track formation, glue them down.If you don't have a detailed track plan before creating the plan directly by glueing down the bases, how do you know which turnout sizes to order? regards, Martin. |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 04:06 from: Brian Lewis
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Martin Wynne wrote:If you don't have a detailed track plan before creating the plan directly by glueing down the bases, how do you know which turnout sizes to order? Quite a pertinent question Martin. I assume if folk are working from a prototype plan, they will either copy the crossing angles or, if they are 'fudging' it somewhat, will stick to 1:6 and 1:7...... (1:6 angles - or in the case of Peco, 1:6.5, make up probably 90% of crossings seen on layouts...). But folk, strong in the back, but weak in the head, i.e. Templot users , will know what angle to select. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 08:42 from: John Lewis
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Paul Boyd wrote:Seriously, this sounds an interesting idea, and I look forward to seeing more info on your website in due course. Please let us know once the information is up there. Presumably we could give you a Templot-generated file (DXF?) for a complex track formation (subject to any size constraints) and a single base comes back. Have I understood that correctly? Like Park Junction, Nr. Newport? John |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 13:52 from: Jim Guthrie
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Brian Lewis wroteLasers are expensive - ours cost US$25,000. and are thus beyond the reach of the average modeller.Brian, I've been interested in laser cutting for a year or two but after a bit of time Googling around, you realise that some peoples' idea of "inexpensive" is at some variance to mine. The cheapest machine I could find was still close to five figures sterling. I suspect that this is a facility that will be well beyond the amateur for some time to come. Jim. |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 15:17 from: Brian Lewis
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Jim Guthrie wrote:I've been interested in laser cutting for a year or two but after a bit of time Googling around, you realise that some peoples' idea of "inexpensive" is at some variance to mine. The cheapest machine I could find was still close to five figures sterling. I suspect that this is a facility that will be well beyond the amateur for some time to come.Agreed. They are expensive. But for 50 years I have made capital purchases based on sound financial criteria. Surely now I can let my heart rule for once? I may never get my money back, but boy, I really am enjoying myself. Also I realise I did not answer young Paul Boyd's questions fully. Paul, if you have a .DXF, .DWG, .CDR, ,AI file, I can work from these. I can also work from bitmaps. But before you do anything, please liaise with me regarding colours. With lasers, everything works by colours and I can email a specific palette to you. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 15:49 from: Ian Everett
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This wonderful news. At first I thought it was April 1st but then I realised it really was Christmas! Surely there is scope here for Brian and Martin to cooperate - how about "Print for C&L Lasercutter" as an option in Templot? Ian |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 18:52 from: Brian Lewis
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Ian Everett wrote: Surely there is scope here for Brian and Martin to cooperate - how about "Print for C&L Lasercutter" as an option in Templot?Ian The geometry of our turnouts differs marginally from Martin's. It would have been easy for me to start by using Templot designs, but that would have incurred using someone else's property rights. I do not know how to export Templot designs as .DXF files, but if this is possible - purely unfilled sleepers and the rails, then it should be reasonably easy. But as I have said before, Templot drawings come with lost of unnecessary 'chaff' and removing it is not quick, nor permanent. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 19:17 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi BrianI do not know how to export Templot designs as .DXF files, but if this is possible - purely unfilled sleepers and the rails, then it should be reasonably easy. But as I have said before, Templot drawings come with lost of unnecessary 'chaff' and removing it is not quick, nor permanent.Is the attached file useable? This is just a quickie using Templot's DXF export function. I've removed all the "unnecessary chaff" leaving just rails and timber outlines in different colours. I wish there was a "rails and timbers only" setting though Cheers |
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Attachment: attach_441_667_locking_road.dxf 336 | |||
posted: 21 Dec 2008 19:20 from: Martin Wynne
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Brian Lewis wroteI do not know how to export Templot designs as .DXF files, but if this is possible - purely unfilled sleepers and the rails, then it should be reasonably easy.Hi Brian, Exporting to DXF is easy, and you can choose which details to include in the file, and in which colours. Go to the storage box window (CTRL-B), and click the files > export DXF... menu item on that window. This dialog appears: dxf_for_laser.png On the drop-down boxes, select "none" for the details which you want to omit. This is the result of the above settings, opened in TurboCad: dxf_for_laser_intc.png That's just a single turnout (B7), but it could be an entire track plan, or a part of one ("selected group only" option). regards, Martin. |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 19:34 from: Martin Wynne
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Paul Boyd wrote:Is the attached file usable?Hi Paul, er, no. You forgot to remove "outline extension marks" in the generator! I wish there was a "rails and timbers only" setting thoughAnything's possible once I know what Brian actually wants. A single button click to rebuild a group and export it in DXF suitable for his laser should be no problem. p.s. It was due to a failure of my telepathy machine that I introduced the "I wish it would..." forum. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 20:51 from: Brian Lewis
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Paul Boyd wrote: Is the attached file useable? This is just a quickie using Templot's DXF export function. I've removed all the "unnecessary chaff" leaving just rails and timber outlines in different colours.Paul. I have tried to download this using both CorelDraw and Illustrator, (Ugh. How I hate Illustrator....). Sadly nothing seemed to open. Perhaps you could email it to me instead? I ma now going to try the method as expressed in Martin's email and will report back. It will be a little slow, as the computer I am using for this work is one which is not connected to the internet, so I have no worries about clients' and my confidential data going astray. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 21:13 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi Brian I've emailed you a DXF without the extension marks - these can be turned off from the generator=>generator settings menu on the workpad, then untick the outline extension marks menu item. I've attached the amended DXF here just for completeness. Cheers |
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Attachment: attach_442_667_locking_road.dxf 367 | |||
posted: 21 Dec 2008 23:06 from: Brian Lewis
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Hi Paul, Martin, I just went to Templot and followed Martin's instructions. Importing the DXF was no problem. However it is all drawn in 'curves' (For non drawing package types, a curve can be a straight line). The sleeper curves were full length, but the rail were chopped up into lengths about 60mm long. Now when I have finished drawing, I convert everything - including text, to curves - it makes for faster lasering, so I cannot complain. But starting with curves is a pain. In essence the system effectively welds everything into one and CorelDraw likes to weld rectangles - not lines. I am sure there is a way round this, but I will have to experiment. But the outline is there - just as you would see it in Templot, so the possibilities are there. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 21 Dec 2008 23:11 from: Ian Everett
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I do hope you do design a single click "export to C&L Lasercutter" button. Well done, Martin. Ian |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 01:22 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi BrianHowever it is all drawn in 'curves' (For non drawing package types, a curve can be a straight line). The sleeper curves were full length, but the rail were chopped up into lengths about 60mm long.Being a non drawing package type, that went over my head Does that mean there's a problem with the way Templot creates DXFs, or is there a setting that should have been, er, set? I'm getting the impression that DXFs are like gerber data for PCBs - so many 'standards' to choose from |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 03:50 from: Richard Spratt
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Paul Boyd wrote: Does that mean there's a problem with the way Templot creates DXFs, or is there a setting that should have been, er, set?Yes, there is a fundamental error in the way that the DXF files are generated. Rails are drawn as 6mm straight lines. Which means a 1m long curve comprises 664 individual lines, rather than 4 curves. Fortunately sleepers are drawn as 4 straight lines, but they could be drawn as a rectangle. This all means that the DXF file is horrendously big. Over 7MB for Awrhyllgwami which is really no more than 6 turnouts and 8m of flexitrack: http://www.scalefour.org/demuchallenge/awrhyllgwami/awrhyllgwami.htm |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 04:07 from: Martin Wynne
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Richard Spratt wrote:Yes, there is a fundamental error in the way that the DXF files are generated. Rails are drawn as 6mm straight lines.Hi Richard, It's not a "fundamental error". It was created that way for very good reasons after considerable design effort over many years. Please ask for explanations before making such assertions. If the output from Templot doesn't meet your requirements there is other software you could try, such as Trax2, AnyRail, XTrkCad or 3rd PlanIt. Or maybe you could create your own track design software. The step length by default is the square root in mm of the model scale equivalent of 9 feet in mm. The step length can be changed -- it's specific to each template. On the program panel window, click the program > expert > step size... menu item, and read the help notes. Please bear in mind that DXF is not Templot's primary output. The internal data format is designed primarily for direct print output. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 04:22 from: Brian Lewis
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Thanks Richard. But it is curious that this does not happen with AutoCAD type .DWG files. Martin. Is Templot capable of exporting as a .DWG file? Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 04:41 from: Martin Wynne
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Brian Lewis wrote: Martin. Is Templot capable of exporting as a .DWG file?Hi Brian, Sorry, no. DWG is an unpublished proprietary format belonging to AutoDesk Inc. See this link. There are 3rd party tools to create DWG files, but full compatibility with AutoCad can't be guaranteed. I'm not minded to use them. DXF is the open public format for interchange with AutoCad. Files are text-based and therefore large, but the DXF format has the advantage of being editable in any text editor. I used the published format data to write the DXF export from Templot. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 11:30 from: georg.kautzsch click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Brian Lewis wrote:Paul. I have tried to download this using both CorelDraw and Illustrator, (Ugh. How I hate Illustrator....). Sadly nothing seemed to open. Perhaps you could email it to me instead?Hi! I had the same experience! But it was there as a absolutely tiny graphic in the center of the working sheet. Try to mark it with the mouse and enlarge it. Georg |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 11:36 from: Martin Wynne
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georg.kautzsch wroteI had the same experience! But it was there as a absolutely tiny graphic in the center of the working sheet. Try to mark it with the mouse and enlarge it.Hi Georg, This is probably due to a mismatch in the units -- inches used when exporting the file, and mm expected on import. There is usually an "options" button in the file opening dialog to set this. Most CAD software has a "zoom to extents" tool button which will zoom the entire drawing to just fill the screen space, which is useful after loading a DXF file. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 12:35 from: georg.kautzsch click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Thank you Martin, Ill try to when I'm back home. Georg |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 15:29 from: Brian Lewis
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I have been mulling over the 'problem' of Templot generated DXF files. AS I said previously, Templot exports 'lines' = curves, whilst CorelDraw welds rectangles. I think the answer is to click on a line and the one adjacent to it and click 'Combine'. You can see this means three actions per sleeper and heaven know how many for the rails. It would be quicker and easier to put Templot generated DXF files onto a separate layer and draw over it and I guess this is what I would do. In fact, it would not take long to build up a library of commonly used track arrangements. However, I still feel uneasy at what is essentially copying another's work, so I will discuss this aspect with Martin before undertaking any 'conversions'. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 15:44 from: Martin Wynne
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Brian Lewis wrote: However, I still feel uneasy at what is essentially copying another's work, so I will discuss this aspect with Martin before undertaking any 'conversions'.Hi Brian, Copyright doesn't come into it. It is a matter of the licence agreement between us. There is some detailed guidance at: http://www.templot.com/martweb/licence_concessions.htm Provided your customer owns a Templot licence, you are free to produce material derived from Templot for him. This is clearly the case if he submits his own Templot file for custom laser cutting. On the other hand, you may not use Templot to create track materials for general commercial sale. You must first establish that the customer owns a Templot licence. For a large order, it may be worth purchasing a Templot licence on his behalf and including the cost in the total price. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 17:42 from: Brian Lewis
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All, No time to take photographs at the moment, but I thought you would be interested in the idea. So I just 'bunged' these two into the scanner to produce a low resolution .jpg. As a guide to the price, these will sell at £4.50 each. By the end of tomorrow I hope to have good stocks of most track formations. Regards Brian lewis |
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Attachment: attach_443_667_SWScan00005.jpg 978 | |||
posted: 22 Dec 2008 19:25 from: GeoffKnight click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Brian Lewis wrote: All, Brian These are impressive. I have just been playing in TurboCad with a .dxf file of a turnout imported from Templot (timber outline and rails only) and it is fairly easy to "convert" that to a skeleton outline by tracing to another layer as you suggested in an earlier message. I should think it would take no more than about 10 minutes for a turnout - not very exciting work but no worse than cutting and laying individual sleepers! As I understand it, in addition to the standrad formations which you are producing, you are open to the idea of producing customised laser cut timbering to customers designs. What is the largest practical size (area) of trackwork configuration for which you could cut the timbering, or do you envisage this being done on a strictly template by template basis? Regards Geoff Knight |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 20:00 from: Brian Lewis
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Hi Geoff, The practical maximum is 604mm x 454mm i.e. 2' x 1'-6" Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 22 Dec 2008 23:31 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi BrianNo time to take photographs at the moment, but I thought you would be interested in the idea. So I just 'bunged' these two into the scanner to produce a low resolution .jpg. As a guide to the price, these will sell at £4.50 each.Those look very good! I like the marker for the crossing nose - nice idea. Presumably for custom designs the "flexitrack" cuts would be omitted. The idea of having a big chunk of timbering in one piece really appeals! |
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posted: 23 Dec 2008 02:31 from: davelong click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Brian Great concept. What do you intend to make the bases from, ie what material. Or will you be able to produce all the main types, ie ply, copper clad, plastic/ABS? Dave |
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posted: 23 Dec 2008 02:33 from: Phil O
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Hi BrianHi Geoff, What are the limitations as regards the thickness and materials? Cheers Phil |
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posted: 23 Dec 2008 02:42 from: Stuart Mitchell
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HI.. Great idea but can these be curved to fit the follow of a curved crossing??? How would you afix the sleepers so they would be strong???? Stuart |
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posted: 23 Dec 2008 05:32 from: Brian Lewis
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davelong wrote: Great concept. What do you intend to make the bases from, ie what material. Or will you be able to produce all the main types, ie ply, copper clad, plastic/ABS?Just ply. There is a noticeable movement back to ply - especially amongst the 7mm brigade. I love timber, like constructing buildings with it. (But then I suppose it could have something to do with the fact that I live in woodland a mile and a half from a road). Phil O wrote: What are the limitations as regards the thickness and materials?About 6mm. Wood, Cast Acrylic, Card, Paper. You can also get types of coated aluminium, specially designed for use with lasers. Stuart Mitchell wrote: Great idea but can these be curved to fit the follow of a curved crossing??? How would you afix the sleepers so they would be strong????Oh yes - positive or negative curving, They are designed to be as flexible as is possible. It was the lack of easy curving that I have been wanting to address for a long time. There are 9 off 1:7 turnouts on my layout. If you removed and stacked them you would see that no two are the same. Gluing them down? I would use Latex. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 23 Dec 2008 05:53 from: davelong click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I've read with interest a layout thread recently on RMweb about using obechi wood. Used a fair bit in aeroplane modeling. A balsa like wood but much harder and very capable of taking plastic/ABS chairs, and easily stained. Here's his layout thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=34207&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=25 The trackwork looks stunning too in P4. I take it the laser would cut this too. I'm seriously thinking of trying this wood type. kind regards Dave |
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posted: 23 Dec 2008 13:08 from: Brian Lewis
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davelong wrote: I've read with interest a layout thread recently on RMweb about using obechi wood. Used a fair bit in aeroplane modeling. A balsa like wood but much harder and very capable of taking plastic/ABS chairs, and easily stained. Yes. Lasers would cut Obeche and Bass, Lime, Poplar, Tulip and other fine grain timbers. The problem can be in obtaining these is sheets wide enough - often no more than 100mm. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 23 Dec 2008 23:08 from: Templot User
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davelong wrote: I've read with interest a layout thread recently on RMweb about using obechi wood. Used a fair bit in aeroplane modeling. A balsa like wood but much harder and very capable of taking plastic/ABS chairs, and easily stained.Yes, used it for some time, as it is easily available via doll's house shops, very nearly the right size for timbers, and as veneer to cut to size. alan@york |
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posted: 23 Dec 2008 23:22 from: davelong click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Thanks Alan I'm thinking of giving it a try on my next project, once my nswl chopper turns up. Dave |
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posted: 19 Jan 2009 09:34 from: Brian Lewis
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All, This is just a short note to advise that 00 and 7mm Timber Tracks bases are now available and will be on the web site in 2-3 days. For 7mm we offer a choice of 1.5mm or 3mm thicknesses - the former following the trend towards thinner sleepering, whilst the latter matches existing 7mm C+L components. Regards Brian Lewis Carrs - C+L Finescale |
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