Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 28 Feb 2009 11:28 from: Martin Wynne
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Dear all, I'm in two minds about the default scroll/zoom direction in Templot. At present it defaults to scroll (on the zoom/pan dialog). This corresponds to the more usual Windows scroll functions -- in which you are moving an imaginary viewing aperture over the surface of the page. It also means that rolling the mouse wheel back towards you zooms out, rolling it forward away from you zooms in. But I have always preferred the paper option, which works in the opposite sense on both panning functions and zoom -- i.e. you are moving the page itself. This corresponds more naturally to how you handle a paper document. If you want to read the bottom of a page you push it up, you don't pull something down. If you want to examine it closely, you pull it towards you. paper_scroll_options.png  Since implementing the very handy drag panning function (in version 091c) which essentially works in the same sense as the paper option -- you are moving the page -- I'm mindful that there is a conflicting sense when using this and the wheel zoom together if the setting remains on the scroll default. So I'm minded to change the default to the paper option. But I can already hear the complaints that this doesn't correspond to the Windows standard.  So I thought we could have a poll here. Please try both options and vote. But if you have never used the paper option before, please give yourself time to get used to it before voting.  Thanks for any comments. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 28 Feb 2009 12:53 from: Martin Lloyd
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Martin, I'll vote for 'paper'. I've always found 'scroll' a bit confusing but, to be honest, I hadn't realised a mere click could make the change. So if others vote for no change, I can at least I can choose which I think is easiest. Martin 62005 |
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| Last edited on 28 Feb 2009 12:53 by Martin Lloyd |
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posted: 28 Feb 2009 13:22 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi Martin I only ever use the drag/panning option, so whether paper or scroll is set as the default makes no difference whatsoever to the way I run Templot. Doesn't drag/pan make scrolling pretty much redundant? But, having just had a play using the arrow keys on the keyboard, the paper option makes much more logical sense. I don't give a stuff about Windows standards As far as the mouse wheel is concerned... mouse? Nope - not got one of those archaic devices connected to either of my computers  Paul |
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posted: 28 Feb 2009 13:48 from: Martin Wynne
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Paul Boyd wrote: I only ever use the drag/panning option, so whether paper or scroll is set as the default makes no difference whatsoever to the way I run Templot.Hi Paul, Does the pen/tablet include any zooming function, e.g. with Ctrl key perhaps? Or do you use the keys and buttons to zoom? If you can zoom with the pen, the paper/scroll option will change the zoom direction. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 28 Feb 2009 14:27 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi Martin No, there's now way of zooming with the Volito2 pen. I mostly use the buttons on the window to zoom, or occasionally the +/- keys on the numeric keypad. I just hooked up a mouse and if I was using one, again the paper mode makes much more sense when using the wheel. It also reminded me just how awful mice really are I've just discovered that the right-click button on the pen allows dragging without worrying about whether or not there's a template under the cursor - that's useful to know and saves double-tapping! Edit:- forget the above paragraph - it's because I was confusing the buttons on the pen! What I thought was right-clicking was the double-click button. The right-click button does just what it says. Cheers |
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| Last edited on 28 Feb 2009 15:10 by Paul Boyd |
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posted: 28 Feb 2009 14:37 from: davelong click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Paul Boyd wrote: Hi Martin Totally agree with Paul. |
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posted: 28 Feb 2009 14:38 from: Alan Turner
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Paul Boyd wrote: Doesn't drag/pan make scrolling pretty much redundant? No - in one important instance. When you are manipulating the track in some way, such as F4 lengthening or F6 curving, if you pan with the mouse it causes the function to turn off. However if you use the scrolling arrows it doesn’t so you can move the plan and then continue with the lengthening or curving. Alan |
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posted: 28 Feb 2009 14:59 from: Martin Wynne
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Alan Turner wrote:When you are manipulating the track in some way, such as F4 lengthening or F6 curving, if you pan with the mouse it causes the function to turn off.Hi Alan, Not if you drag pan using the middle mouse button (or wheel-button) instead of the left mouse button. See the drag panning notes at :topic 330 regards, Martin. |
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posted: 28 Feb 2009 15:13 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi AlanNo - in one important instance. When you are manipulating the track in some way, such as F4 lengthening or F6 curving, if you pan with the mouse it causes the function to turn off. However if you use the scrolling arrows it doesn’t so you can move the plan and then continue with the lengthening or curving.I must admit that I don't actually find that a problem - I just hit the appropriate function key again. I suppose it would be a pain if you used the menus to choose the mouse actions. I've just seen Martin's note about using the middle mouse button, but that option isn't open to me! Cheers |
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posted: 28 Feb 2009 17:39 from: Martin Wynne
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Paul Boyd wrote: I just hit the appropriate function key again.Hi Paul, The big BackSpace key restarts the most recent mouse action. Likewise the top tool-button with the triangle symbol. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 1 Mar 2009 07:49 from: Jim Guthrie
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I've just tried mine and it seems to be stuck on paper no matter what I select So I've voted for paper - what I'm used to. I'll do a bit more investigation to see why I can't change the option. Jim. |
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posted: 1 Mar 2009 09:34 from: Jim Guthrie
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Jim Guthrie wrote: I've just tried mine and it seems to be stuck on paper no matter what I selectIgnore this - early morning brain fade. Working as designed. Jim. |
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posted: 3 Mar 2009 14:49 from: Glen Suckling
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Hello TEMPLOT users, I am confused. This thread has been viewed 174 times and has had 11 responses (this makes 12) and yet only 7 people have bothered to vote in Martin's poll. Martin has asked us a question that could affect how TEMPLOT works. Do we really not care? If this apathy is typical of TEMPLOT users maybe Martin should give up and go play golf instead of working all hours of night and day to give us the amazing product that he has and with the unbelievable support. Again, Martin has asked us a question. Whatever our answer, we owe him the courtesy of a response. Glen |
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posted: 3 Mar 2009 15:07 from: Paul Boyd
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Glen (& Martin) I sense a problem with the way the forum works here. Until Glen's post, I didn't know there was an actual poll set up for this despite having read & contributed to the thread - I read Martin's post as asking for opinions, which I've given. I do have a pretty good idea as to why people haven't voted on the poll though - when you click on the link in the email resulting from Martin's original post or any subsequent posts, you're taken to the top of that post. The poll itself is off the top off the screen so I simply hadn't seen it. I don't browse the forum looking for threads, I read the emails and click on the link to take me straight to that post in the forum if I have an interest in the subject. I suspect I'm not alone in that... Cheers |
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posted: 3 Mar 2009 16:46 from: GeoffJones
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Hi All Like Paul and others I only ever use the mouse for panning and anything else where I can. In fact I tried changing the pan options to see what this other option was that Martyin was talking about and ended up confused as it didn't seem to change anything. It is only since reading Paul'smcomment that I realised it was about doing something with the keyboard! If, as I suspect, most people wotk this way then a vote by any of us will not be helpful. Perhaps a "Don't Care" option is needed. Geoff |
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posted: 3 Mar 2009 17:48 from: Martin Wynne
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GeoffJones wrote: Like Paul and others I only ever use the mouse for panning and anything else where I can. In fact I tried changing the pan options to see what this other option was that Martin was talking about and ended up confused as it didn't seem to change anything. It is only since reading Paul's comment that I realised it was about doing something with the keyboard! If, as I suspect, most people work this way then a vote by any of us will not be helpful. Perhaps a "Don't Care" option is needed.Hi Geoff, Some confusion seems to have set in.  If you are using the mouse for panning, by which I think you mean drag panning, the main effect of the scroll/paper option is on the mouse wheel zooming. The paper option for wheel zooming can be imagined as grabbing the drawing with the mouse and pulling it towards you or pushing it away from you. The scroll option for wheel zooming can be imagined as moving your head in towards the drawing, or out away from it. When using drag panning you have in effect grabbed the drawing with the mouse, so only the paper option for mouse zooming makes sense. If you mix drag panning with the scroll option for mouse zooming, you can become disoriented -- or at least, I do. Which is why I asked the question. I want to change the default to the paper option for comfort, but it will be one more thing where Templot differs from the Windows standard. It will also affect the other means of panning -- the arrow buttons on the zoom/pan panel and the arrow keys on the keyboard. But with drag panning now available, I suspect these have become largely redundant. Since it is easily changed with a click, I think I will go ahead and make this change anyway. p.s. Glen, Paul, don't worry about the low turnout in the poll, I'm not in any way offended. Many thanks to everyone who did vote. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 3 Mar 2009 18:02 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi Martin Just a quick update - I've found myself with a Wacom Bamboo tablet which has a "scroll ring" built in. This is basically a finger operated touch pad which makes zooming in and out in Templot really easy. Can I have a second vote for 'paper' as the default please? When this scroll ring is set to 'zoom' with Templot set to 'scroll' it works backwards!As an aside, when set to 'zoom', it does just that in Templot but scrolls in other programs. Weird, but absolutely ideal! Paul |
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posted: 3 Mar 2009 18:30 from: richard_t
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Martin Wynne wrote:Since it is easily changed with a click, I think I will go ahead and make this change anyway. And Templot will remember what you've set, so it's not yet another setting to modify when restarting Templot? (As I'd voted to keep it the same!) "Grumpy" Richard |
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posted: 3 Mar 2009 19:43 from: John Lewis
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Glen Suckling wrote: This thread has been viewed 174 times and has had 11 responses (this makes 12) and yet only 7 people have bothered to vote in Martin's poll. Martin has asked us a question that could affect how TEMPLOT works. Do we really not care? If this apathy is typical of TEMPLOT users maybe Martin should give up and go play golf instead of working all hours of night and day to give us the amazing product that he has and with the unbelievable support. Perhaps we don't mind! In my case I do not think I have used the program enough to have a real opinion. John |
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posted: 3 Mar 2009 20:02 from: Ashley click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Well, for me, it is I don't mind as quite frankly I don't use Templot enough to get use to its quirks. I find myself having to relearn Templot everytime I give it a spin. As a consequence I am forever trying to remember the basic quirks of Templot, let alone whether or not I prefer the way the page scrolls. | ||
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posted: 3 Mar 2009 20:48 from: Dennis Mowatt
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Now that I know to look at the top of the page I have, and I have voted. Regards Dennis |
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posted: 3 Mar 2009 22:49 from: davelong click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Glen Suckling wrote: Hello TEMPLOT users, Do remember that each time you visit this thread it counts that as a view. I've visited this thread now probably getting on for 15-20 times. So it's easy to see why viewing numbers get so high but responses so few. Kind regards Dave |
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posted: 4 Mar 2009 08:20 from: Brian Lewis
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Martin Wynne wrote:... but it will be one more thing where Templot differs from the Windows standard.I can scarce believe that this could be said seriously. Like it or not, Windows is an accepted and easily understood standard world-wide. Surely the fact that Templot operates so differently to Windows is the core reason why folk find it so hard to master? I think I will go ahead and make this change anyway.So much for the poll.... Then why ask us in the first place? What Templot has always needed as a priority is less tinkering and some proper Help documentation. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 4 Mar 2009 08:56 from: Martin Wynne
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Brian Lewis wrote: Martin Wynne wrote:... but it will be one more thing where Templot differs from the Windows standard.I can scarce believe that this could be said seriously. Like it or not, Windows is an accepted and easily understood standard world-wide. Surely the fact that Templot operates so differently to Windows is the core reason why folk find it so hard to master? Hi Brian, Not everyone finds it hard to master. For many the stumbling block is a lack of knowledge of prototype trackwork, rather than the user interface. Paul Boyd wrote: But, having just had a play using the arrow keys on the keyboard, the paper option makes much more logical sense. I don't give a stuff about Windows standardsand Dave Long added: Totally agree with Paul.So I fear your liking for Windows is not universally shared! I asked the question on Saturday morning, and I wrote that on Tuesday evening. As Glen pointed out, few had voted so I assumed others were not much bothered either way. There was a clear majority for the decision I made (although it has evened up a bit since). And what I actually said was "Since it is easily changed with a click, I think ...".I think I will go ahead and make this change anyway.So much for the poll.... Then why ask us in the first place? I have agreed with you several times that Templot needs improved Help docs. What I have also explained several times is that it can't be written until I have finished tinkering with the program. I have tried to fill the gap with the videos. I think these two videos do cover most of the basics: beginner video 1 beginner video 2 Martin (still tinkering). |
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posted: 4 Mar 2009 09:37 from: Raymond
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WINDOWS Personally, I hate this awful system with a passion and now that my company's programs are web enabled will be changing the whole box of tricks for a Mac or a Linux box and get of Mr Gate's bloated and bug ridden junk once and for all. Templot is not in the least difficult to use, given a modicum of effort and being c0onstried by the Windows GUI would restrict it in my opinion. Regards Raymond |
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posted: 4 Mar 2009 10:29 from: Brian Lewis
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Hi Martin, Certainly lack of knowledge of the prototype is quite universal - you should sit at the C+L help desk for a while and listen to the questions we get asked...... But really that is a separate issue. Templot is clunky 'Bloatware' - never use one keystroke, when 6 will do. In many ways it reminds me of WordPerfect as it was in the early 80's. It would be so much easier if you could set 'set and forget' parameters - I find you use more keystrokes setting up each time, than in designing. When you consider how long you have been developing Templot it is understandable that you now 'cannot see the wood for the trees', and go haring off in divers directions - many of which, like this current alteration, are irrelevant. But really it would reward you to back off for a few months and then look at it anew. Move towards Windows, not away from it and provide proper Help - printed text is the ideal. A few months ago, somebody on the list, (I apologize for not remembering who), produced keystroke by keystroke instructions for creating a specific track formation. This 'How to' is what to aim for. You will not agree, but I think Templot should be regarded as an aid to designing 'dreams' i.e. layouts that folk would aspire to, but never actually build. Rather like these Train driving Simulation packages. In many ways Timbers Tracks has rendered Templot unnecessary for designing and constructing a layout. Having said all that, I still support Templot. But it saddens me that it is so clearly a piece of carbon, waiting to be converted into a diamond...... Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 4 Mar 2009 10:36 from: Martin Wynne
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Brian Lewis wrote: In many ways Timbers Tracks has rendered Templot unnecessary for designing and constructing a layout.Hi Brian, You have rather lost me there. How do you know which Timber Tracks to order, without designing the layout first? regards, Martin. |
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posted: 4 Mar 2009 11:06 from: Brian Lewis
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Martin Wynne wrote:You have rather lost me there. How do you know which Timber Tracks to order, without designing the layout first?Back of envelope old chap. Then lining wallpaper, a pencil and a trammel. Did it like that for years. (Took a layout to an exhibition for the first time in 1968). All forty feet of 'Llaniog' was designed using Templot. Folk are probably tired of me wittering on about getting trackwork to 'flow', but that is why I used Templot - I insist upon having turnouts that curve in sympathy with the plain track. Now with Timber Tracks I have the facility to curve Turnout bases in the same way as flexitrack. So please do not misunderstand what I am saying. I am not trying to 'knock' Templot. It just saddens me to see so much effort going to waste. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 4 Mar 2009 20:14 from: Ashley click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I just voted after checking what I actually use. I see that things are running neck and neck. | ||
| Last edited on 4 Mar 2009 20:14 by Ashley |
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posted: 4 Mar 2009 22:25 from: Pete Brownlow click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I've voted to keep it as it is. Like some others, I almost always use drag panning, but I do use the mouse to zoom in and out a lot and I find it intuitive to scroll the wheel forwards to zoom in - this also matches online software like google maps. It felt completely wrong to me zooming the other way round. But like others on here, if you are modifying the startup code, I'd like to appeal for an option for Templot to remember the settings so the first startup window has two options - 1. Start it with the same settings as last time or 2. Go through the startup options. That way, it doesn't matter what you set the first time default to, everyone can be happy by setting it the way they want it once. Pete |
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posted: 5 Mar 2009 01:14 from: Bruce Wilson
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Martin: I spent some time playing around with the two options and I am six of one half-dozen of the other on them, so really no big help to you. However, I do like the suggestion made of having Templot remember the last user settings. |
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