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I've written up some notes on how I create interlaced sleeper turnouts with Templot and posted them on my website.

I can see how the timber ends in line helps with the sleepers along the main road but I'm afraid that I don't see how it helps for the timbers in the turnout road.

I've written up some notes on how I create interlaced sleeper turnouts with Templot and posted them on my website.

I am planing a small On30 layout that will use interlaced (zippered) sleepers (ties) on the the turnouts. The link referenced is not working, at least it does not  for me. I would like to see how managed to create these!

sierrasmith71 wrote:

I am planing a small On30 layout that will use interlaced (zippered) sleepers (ties) on the the turnouts. The link referenced is not working, at least it does not  for me. I would like to see how managed to create these!

Hi David,

Stewart had some web domain problems. The page you want is now at:

http://grotsoft.net/Railways/Templot/InterlacedSleeperTurnouts.aspx

I have now edited the links in this topic to match.

regards,

Martin.

Try as I might, I just cannot access this page. I have tried every method I know. Can you or anyone out there, help, please?

Designing Interlaced Sleeper Turnouts with Templot
Stewart McSporran, April 2008

I have been designing and building Templot templates
for turnouts with interlaced sleepers for my layout.
As this has become a hot topic in some areas I thought
that I would publish my notes. While I'm targetting 2mm
finescale the general principles will apply to all scales.

The instructions in this article refer to version 0.82d of Templot.

Background
An interlaced sleeper turnout is one where all (or almost all)
the timbering is simply standard 10" wide sleepers rather
than the heavier and longer 12" wide timbers. These were
popular in the 19th Century mainly, it is thought, due to
their comparatively low cost compared to timbered turnouts.
     
Aim
This article will start from a standard Templot turnout
and explain how I convert it to one with interlaced sleepers.
I'd like to thank Jim Watt of the 2mm Scale Association
for his assistance in debugging the results of my experiments
in this area and for providing me with some appropriate NBR
turnout drawings.

I will explain some of the more unusual Templot options,
but I will not cover the basic template creation steps.

Starting Off
We begin with a standard template.

First of all use the Real Timbering > Timbering Data menu
option to set the width of all the timbers to 10".
In this example I had the timbers square on to the main road.


Most of the work is done from the Shove Timbers control
and in the  following screen shots the blue sleepers are
ones that have been manually altered while the red one
is the sleeper currently being edited.

Tip: I find it much easier to work in real world units
in the Shove Timbers control.

Start around the V crossing with the timber under the
tip of the  crossing nose. This just needs its length
set correctly, 108" in this case.

In 2mm FS the wing and check rail gaps are overscale.
This has the effect that the knuckle is pushed further
away from the tip of the crossing than would be the case
with a true scale gap. This means that it's not possible
to put the timbers exactly as required around the crossing.
(One should be under the tip of the crossing, the next
one under the knuckle.) If the timbers are put in these
"correct" locations they just look wrong, as shown below:




Even though it's not strictly correct it looks better
if the sleepers are moved closer to the crossing tip:



Next we turn our attention to the switch end. I leave
everything up to the heel of the switch blades as-is
except for the length of the timbers; which need
to be reduced to 108 inches.

The NBR diagram shows two sleepers, very close together,
after the sleeper immediately behind the heels of
the switches, so we'll deal with  them now.

Aside - Lining Up The Sleeper Ends
It's very difficult to make sure that the ends of
the sleepers line up correctly without some sort of
guide. It seemed that the two stock rails would make
perfect guides; if only I could work out how to position
a copy of them where the sleeper ends should be.

Luckily a bit of experimenting resulted in this very thing!
So here's how to strip a copy  of the turnout template
down to just one or other of its stock rails.

  *  Copy the template.
  *  Turn off snapping‚ use the menu:
     action > F7 snap options > snap on background templates
  *  Hide the timbers using the menu:
     real > timbering > no timbering
  *  Omit the track centre lines using the menu:
     geometry > track centre-lines
  *  Use the menu:
     do > Omit Rails and Joints option to remove everything
     but the stock rail of interest. (See below)
  *  Use "F7" move template to line up stock rail with
     sleeper ends.
  *  Do the same again for the other stock rail.

The screen shot below shows the two templates (nos. 46 and 49)
lined up at the sleeper ends.

Back to the Template
The goal now is to fix up all the timbering between
the switch  heels and the crossing. I find this is
easiest done by starting at the switch and roughly
putting the sleepers in place by making one just touch
the tick marks at the end of the adjacent sleeper.
Once you've got to the crossing you can go back and
fettle them into place.
 
Tip: Bonus timbers are automatically lined up properly
for the main road, so I  find it easiest to twist and
throw the "T" timbers onto the turnout side while using
the bonus timbers on the main side.    

Tip: Using the shortcut keys helps accuracy (these are
the underlined letters on the shove timbers control,
e.g. L for lengthen, S for  shorten).    
 
You should now have a template similar to the
following  screenshot:
 
Finish of the remaining timbers and you'll end
up with an almost complete template (the guide
templates have been removed in this  picture):
 

The only problem now is that the check rails
are too long for this prototype. So fix this by
using the real > customize V-crossing > wing
and check rails... menu option and on second
data entry screen, set the check lengths to
48, 78, 108 (the defaults are 78, 108, 138).

The check rails now look much better. They don't
quite line up with the sleepers but this is easily
sorted during the build.

All images and content copyright ©Grotsoft 2008.

Hi Martin
Try as I might, I just cannot access this page.  I have tried every method I know.  Can you or anyone out there, help, please?
Cheers
Jim

That's the very first one I've seen in real life, so to speak.

I realise this an old thread so wondered if Stewart's interlacing notes are still regarded as the best way to do this given that Templot has moved on somewhat since then?

I have been reading that thread but again no real reference to where drawings have come from, time for some PMs I think.

As a matter of interest what radius are you using at the end of your checkrails?

As a matter of interest what radius are you using at the end of your checkrails?

Jim's reference to an end-of-flare gap of 3.5" is interesting.  On the Rannoch turnout that gap was consistently 5" on all flares.  I didn't attempt to establish a radius for the flares on site, and haven't done so subsequently.  For what it's worth, my notes indicate that wing rail flares commenced 9.5" short of the end of the flare, whilst in the case of the check rails the commencement point was in three cases 11.5" from the end of flare, and in one 11.25".

I agree that cosmetically it would be nice for Templot to offer the facility to show such flares as having a smooth constant curve, though I suspect we enthusiasts of Scottish track are too uncommon to warrant this!   I also agree about how difficult it can be to get such smooth curvature into flare in a controlled way (I'm working in 4mm : 1') - and this even though I've knocked myself up a bending tool.

Problems I have had with interlaced timber shoving include getting the shoved sleepers properly centralised and properly at right angles to the line of rail.   To mitigate this, I have curved template so that the diverging road lies as nearly straight as I am able to get it, as this assists me considerably in overcoming both these difficulties.   Once the shoving is done, I re-straighten the template before saving it as a library item.  That way, for the limited range of crossing angle/switch combinations with which I am working, it is simplicity to add a new turnout into a layout with interlacing already in situ.

I have a few further photographs of this turnout, but each needs a little 'massaging' to bring it within permitted size limits.  Anything in particular you would like to see?

John Palmer wrote:

I have a few further photographs of this turnout, but each needs a little 'massaging' to bring it within permitted size limits.  Anything in particular you would like to see?

We won't know until we see them.

Jim.

Did someone spray that turnout with varnish to make it look pretty?

On a more serious note, I noticed on Mikes shot of the MR crossing that the knuckle sits on a fancy chair and the bends in the wing rails don't appear to have a radius.

Andrew Barrowman wrote:

Did someone spray that turnout with varnish to make it look pretty?

On a more serious note, I noticed on Mikes shot of the MR crossing that the knuckle sits on a fancy chair and the bends in the wing rails don't appear to have a radius.

Hi Andrew

The final bend is shown as 18in radius?

Regards

Mike

mikewturner wrote:

Andrew Barrowman wrote:

Did someone spray that turnout with varnish to make it look pretty?

On a more serious note, I noticed on Mikes shot of the MR crossing that the knuckle sits on a fancy chair and the bends in the wing rails don't appear to have a radius.

Hi Andrew

The final bend is shown as 18in radius?

Regards

Mike

Hi Mike,

Agreed, but I was referring to the bend in the wing rails at the knuckle on the 2C9 chair. I understand that it's common for the rails to be bent to some radius at that position, but on your example it looks like they have a sharp bend. I just thought it was interesting

Cheers!
Andrew

Jim, I note you picking up on the connecting rods, whilst the attached are L&Y they may be interest as another example. I have also included a drawing for switches which is interesting as it shows a 'point guard' to stop the tips lifting.

And the LNW version Jim...

View from the bank:2129_231956_500000000.jpg

It would be interesting to know more about the circumstances in which such joggled configurations came to be applied.

John Palmer wrote:

It would be interesting to know more about the circumstances in which such joggled configurations came to be applied.

John,

Possibly joggling was only applied on main running line facing turnouts.

Jim.

This photo shows the temporary station and sidings provided in connection with the hydro electric scheme at Inveruglas. It was opened in 1945 and if you look the turnout closest the camera is fully interlaced and would have been newly constructed at that time. Wartime economy or the Scottish companies just doing what they knew best?

mikewturner

One good source of information could be Richard Chown whose "Castle Rackrent" layout has appeared in magazines like the MRJ over the years.  I believe that Richard worked with BR(S) in the track department and was a good source of information on what went on in Scotland in BR days.   Unfortunately I can't find any mention of an email address for Richard.

Jim.

If something was being laid as a sleepered lead at Blackford in the 1970s it was undoubtedly secondhand. Not in the running line I hope but in the yard, which by then as I recall was an Up refuge siding with a tamper siding off it.

9. I don’t understand the expressions ‘single guarded’ and ‘double guarded’ and would be interested to learn what these mean.

Mike, thank you for posting those interesting additional shots.

In 4mm scale Ian Terrell can  supply etched representations of that point lever - see this link

Interesting to note that at the time of your photograph Crianlarich’s Up West Highland Line Home signal was still of Stevens LQ design.

Herewith the drawing as promised

allanferguson wrote:

Herewith the drawing as promised

Allan,

I've already got a copy of that drawing - from a friend in Scotland.

In the 1960s I did a survey of the Caledonian line from Crianlarich to Tyndrum with a view to modelling Dalmally station.  I took a lot of pictures at the time - some of Dalmally signal box got into the recent Caledonian Railway Association signalling book.    But what I didn't do was take note of the track.  At that time,  the line to Oban was virtually the way it had been at the grouping with very little change and I'm sure that most,  if not all, of the track was still in Caledonian style.

Another thing of note is a North British table of switch and crossing leads which appeared in the Gauge 0 Guild manual some years ago (it might still be included).  The quality is very poor and would hardly be worth scanning,  but I could copy the values into a new table if people are interested.

Jim.

I am wondering whether that table of North British S&C values may have been what Richard Chown showed me at the Wigan Show.  If you wouldn't mind preparing a new table of them, Jim, I'd much appreciate it.

Mike Morant's site provides a very nice shot of a diamond connecting Slow to Fast at Craigentinny, the link for which is here.  It bears a very strong resemblance to the double guarded diamond shown in Richard Chown's drawing.

Not quite interlaced, but perhaps unlaced...a@y

Not quite interlaced, but perhaps unlaced...a@y

alan@york wrote:

Not quite interlaced, but perhaps unlaced...a@y

Hi Alan

That appears to be standard LNER practice and is shown in the NERA LNER Standard Railway Equipment - Permanent Way reprint in a drawing titled short timbering for crossover roads. I've got a copy of an original source somewhere and will dig out and post so as not to infringe any copyright.

Regards

Mike

Allan, thank you for taking that trouble in posting Richard’s drawing – much appreciated, as are Richard’s supply of it and further comments.

Points of interest to me that arise from it are:............

Richard has responded to this, and I append his response below:-
Hello Allan,
I’m sorry that it has been a wee while before I caught up with this. You will note above what I know them as. (Sleepered Leads)
To take John Palmer’s points in reverse of his order, but order of importance. I can clarify a bit because my copy, that form which I scanned, is a bit clearer. As to the original. I am sure that it is here somewhere, because I eventually got it back from the Gauge 0 Guild, but the question is where? The thing is that it is a cloth-backed rolled drawing and everything else that I have on p way is a book or a folder and lives in the same set of bookshelves. Not fitting there it is in some place that I several years ago considered suitable and safe. Safe maybe, but where?
Anyway to the points, both senses:
!0. The whole nub of the problem is how the chairs, or baseplates, sit on the woodwork. There is not much room on a sleeper for a chair to be askew because its rail is curving. The older solution was separate sleepers, the later one is wider timbers to cope with the skew. Chairs and baseplates are not handed at the crossing. Actually they are square to the centre line of the crossing. Conventionally to keep it looking tidy the straight road sleepers were kept square, as timbers are still. On the curve the drawing may appear to have the curved road sleepers square to that road, but in reality (as I found when laying out some S7 turnouts myself last week) those under the crossing have a skew that suits the angle of the crossing chairs, ie half the angle of their neighbours, so that the longer chairs still fit on the sleeper. It all gets even more interesting on a turnout where both roads are curved with curves of similar flexure (all curving right or left). ‘Standard’ chairs and baseplates are not handed, there may have been specials in complexities such as scissors and triple crossings to cope with hand of 1 in 20 twists and associated checking. Somebody will have had them – don’t rule out the GWR.
9. Not clear on the drawing as seen. The through road with slip has conventional; short checks inside the obtuse crossings. The diamond has continuous checks on all rails all the way from the heels of the common crossing at one end to that of the other. Not, I think, normal if both roads are straight as shown on the drawing, but likely in a curved station throat. This is, remember, an illustration of practice, not holy gospel.
8 and 7. Yes, despite the extra cost sometimes you have to use timbers to get the chairs to fit on.
6. Yes, if you can get away with it two (bits of) sleeper spliced together make a long one and you can still get the chairs on. Splicing was usually by chairscrews and fishplates either side of the sleepers, even if there was a bit of an angle. When concrete bearers were introduced by BR they were full (whatever) length. Nowadays, so that S&C can be pre-assembled and brought in by rail the bearers are sized in design to suit loading and spliced on the ground as part of installation. The splices are big steel channels that sit over the join and bolt into place.
5. Yes. It says that it is the position of the third stretcher if the point is facing.
4. Yes. I read it as 3 ½”. I am not surprised. My 1922 textbook says 3 ¾”. It took time to grow to 4 ¼”/106mm as today. Across the Channel they got to 6 1/8” a lot sooner. Compare and contrast? You have an hour for this question.
3. Yes, as I said earlier, space them as best you can.
2. Yes, so the clearance between blade and stock at the heel may be no more than 1 3/4”.
1. And in the same office?
I trust that this helps. Remember, I keep saying, traditional track was custom and practice. British Railways Track was first published in 1943, in the middle of the war, because so many people had been called up and their replacements, women included, needed to know what ought to be done. It gives the official version, as did its earlier successors, which didn’t necessarily accord with the looser reality.
Best wishes
Richard