3D printing for smaller scales and flat-bottom track

[njee20]

@njee20

Hi,

Welcome to Templot Club.

Why do you want the chairs to sit lower on the timbers? The existing chair base is correct to prototype, i.e. 1.3/4" thick, scaled.

Martin.

Hi Martin, thank you

I want the chairs to sit lower because I'd like to try and make it work with flatbottom rail. Yes the chairs aren't prototypical for FB, but at N gauge viewing distances that's hard to discern, and scale Pandrol clips are definitely not workable! My baseline is either the Finetrax 'clips', or solder blobs on PCB construction. To that end, having the chairs directly on top of the timbers, rather than on top of the chair plates would (to my eye) be a better approximation of FB pointwork. Essentially I'm trying to make the chairs as minimally visibly intrusive as possible, even if that's not wholly prototypical!

Taking something like this crossover, whilst there are chair plates I think trying to reduce any gap between the foot of the rail and the timbers would look better (even though it's a feature of BH rail).

DSC_0320 by njee20, on Flickr

@RBTKraisee personally I found your rail dimensions pretty well spot on. The rail, dressed very slightly, slid in easily and was then held decently tight and straight.

 

[Martin Wynne]

I want the chairs to sit lower because I'd like to try and make it work with flatbottom rail.

@njee20

Hi,

I shall be surprised if you can get the bullhead chairs to work with flat-bottom rail. In addition to modifying the chairs to suit the rail, there will be issues with gauging, flangeway gaps, and fitting prepared rails in the crossing chairs.

I'm waiting for some bright young IT coder to come along with an alternative program to Templot for use with flat-bottom track building. It won't be easy because there is a multitude of FB designs and prototypes still in use in the UK. The Pandrol clip was invented in 1957 and only came into widespread use in the 1970s. This means that for steam-era layouts and early diesels the earlier FB designs are needed in most cases.

I'm now too old to get involved in all that. It's going to take me all my time and energy to take the Bullhead Plug Track project to completion, with the ability to create any complex track formation in BH in any scale or gauge, and use customized prototype chair designs. FB will be for someone else to take forward.

As it stands Templot supports FB only for 2D designs for paper templates, using the pre-1970 switch geometries.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[RBTKraisee]

Martin,
I'm no track expert, but it sounds like you've already been coding the structure of Templot in a modular fashion, to allow for different "styles" of chairing to be integrated at some point down the road, but clearly the huge amount of work involved in just the BH rail - and a little FB - has been more than enough to fill your time!

I'd be interested to learn a little, for those of us unfamiliar with Templot's internals, about how much work would be involved in getting an additional type of chairing system added into Templot?

Ross.

 

[njee20]

Yep, I accept all of that, but it's fun to try. I don’t believe gauge or flangeways will be a huge problem; I’m not working in 2mm FS, you could drive a real loco through standard N gauge flangeways.

As an aside, I’m confused… did you split this thread off from the one it was posted in originally?

 

[Phil G]

I'm waiting for some bright young IT coder to come along with an alternative program to Templot for use with flat-bottom track building. It won't be easy because there is a multitude of FB designs and prototypes still in use in the UK.

I'm now too old to get involved in all that. It's going to take me all my time and energy to take the Bullhead Plug Track project to completion, with the ability to create any complex track formation in BH in any scale or gauge, and use customized prototype chair designs. FB will be for someone else to take forward.

Hi Martin,
Firstly, and for the sake of full understanding, I will start by saying, I am very much in the BH camp, so non of the below will directly affect me. That said and bearing in mind your two comments from above. which by the way I fully understand and endorse your position on.

I guess the two key questions are, could somebody take the code you have done so far for BF chairs and modify it to work for FB? either early or current FB?
Secondly would you be happy to release this part of the code (basically most of Plug track as it is today) as open source code as a starting point for them?
Or are you saying somebody (Our young IT coder perhaps) can take the principal of plug track and start a fresh with FB rail in mind, to take forward?
cheers
Phil

 

[Martin Wynne]

As an aside, I’m confused… did you split this topic off from the one it was posted in originally?

@njee20

Hi,

Yes. I'm trying to keep topics in the plug track section focused on what can be done with Templot 3D plug track. That means chaired bullhead only. Flat-bottom isn't supported, so flat-bottom discussions need to be in their own topics separate from the plug track discussions. Otherwise it all gets too tangled and confusing for beginners. Just the bullhead is complicated enough.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

I guess the two key questions are, could somebody take the code you have done so far for BF chairs and modify it to work for FB? either early or current FB?
Secondly would you be happy to release this part of the code (basically most of Plug track as it is today) as open source code as a starting point for them?
Or are you saying somebody (Our young IT coder perhaps) can take the principal of plug track and start a fresh with FB rail in mind, to take forward?

@Phil G @RBTKraisee

Hi Phil,

I've already said that after the next update is released, version 244a, I intend to release all the code as open-source to update the previous 2018 open-source files. See:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/open-source-again.839/post-10191

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/open-source-again.839/post-10203

What anyone chooses to do with it will be up to them, provided they comply with the open-source licence. That could include modifying the existing code for flat-bottom rail fixings, or starting again with a blank sheet for a 3D flat-bottom program.

But the sticking point is likely to be this quote from Ross:

I'm no track expert

The whole point and purpose of Templot is to create model trackwork based on the prototype. Which means in order to create complex formations such as tandem turnouts, outside slips, double junctions, etc., it is important that the rail can be assembled into the track base vertically from above. This was the basis of the original plug track concept. Sliding the rails in from one end doesn't work. It doesn't even work for single turnouts, making it necessary to put a non-prototypical break in the rail at the knuckle. Creating a system of flat-bottom fixings which will permit vertical assembly of complex formations will be a major challenge, and require a good knowledge of prototype flat-bottom track. That in itself is a minefield compared with bullhead.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,
It's good to have the clarification of your intension. I read your previous post as minded, meaning your still thinking about it. Which I understand as there are some complications to overcome.

Which means to create complex formations such as tandem turnouts, outside slips, double junctions, etc., it is important that the rail can be assembled into the track base vertically from above.

Your comment about vertically from above, can be achieve in one of two ways.
You can either have a two part chair, where the base can be inserted as a plug, which to all intents and purposes you build the timber and chair base as a pre assembly then drop the rail in vertically and attach everything together using the loose jaws. (which is a genius concept by the way)
If your modelling in 4 mm or above that scale, I 100% agree with you, where its possible to drop the rail in vertically and then add the loose jaws it solves a series of other issues.

The other option which was the logical evolution of plug track, is you have a one piece chair which slides onto the rail, thus building a rail length (long or short) with the right chairs, pre slid onto the rail.
This subassembly is then pushed down vertically into the sockets provided in the sleeper/timbers.
There are some limitations to this plug in approach, which I would say require more care and even pressure needing to be applied to the chairs to allow them to push into the sockets without at the same time breaking the chair on the rail. certainly doable though.

If your in 2mm and maybe 3 mm I am not sure the loose jaw option is a practical proposition. I am not even sure one piece plug chairs will totally work in 2 mm scale. ( no harm in trying though) for 3 mm plug chairs are viable and maybe even loose jaws are as well!

It must be said though, that other methods are avaible, there is the slide the chairs on the rails and then glue the chairs down. Not strictly plug track, but possibly an option for the aforementioned complex formations!
Or you can go for the slide chairs on rail as far as practical, using a slid the chairs down more than one piece of rail then press the sub assembly home and then join the rails approach.
So such thing as prototypical one piece bent Knuckle will have to be sacrificed for a non prototypical joint at the knuckle. The idea is certainly not new, with other track building options on the market, already using this approach.

Therefore if you follow the logic, you would have to conclude, that certainly for 2mm and maybe even 3 or 4 mm scale FB projects. Other means of creating as realistic a track representation as possible will need to be explored.

I do agree that when it comes to Pandrol clips, even in O gauge there unlikely to be realistic and still work. The smaller the scale the more deviation for the prototype will likely be needed.

In conclusion FB rail clamping options will be harder to accurately model, when compared to BH, but that should not rule out quite a few options that can be explored by others going forward.
cheers
Phil,

 

[njee20]

Loose jaw chairs in 2mm would definitely be a nightmare, but I can see they’d be the best option for larger scales, just as with the BH designe.

I’m not convinced that simply sliding the rail in isn’t viable for simple formations at least. For larger crossing angles you’d likely encounter there’s enough flex in the rail that you can bend it around the knuckle, negating the need for an unprototypical break as Martin mentions, I suspect this would be the case up to 4mm; 7mm may be a challenge, but loose jaw chairs with a closer to scale design would be most viable there.

I think the skill set of being an expert in track, having some software engineering knowledge, and the time dedicated means it’s pretty unlikely to ever be picked up, and I’m confident there are ways of using the native functionality in Templot to get it to work, just need to find the best way!

Pre plug-track I did export DXFs and tried both drawing ‘chair’ approximations, and adding holes for Finetrax ‘chairs’, both of which were enough to make me lose the will to live on an FV20 crossover before getting to a reasonable result!

 

[Martin Wynne]

If your in 2mm and maybe 3 mm I am not sure the loose jaw option is a practical proposition. I am not even sure one piece plug chairs will totally work in 2 mm scale. ( no harm in trying though) for 3 mm plug chairs are viable and maybe even loose jaws are as well!

@Phil G @James Walters

Hi Phil,

When I said plug track works for any scale or gauge, that was really just the theory. My thoughts were mainly with the larger scales, and I didn't really believe it would work below 4mm/ft using home 3D printers. I thought it would need industrial-grade hi-res equipment for the tiny scales.

Now we have folks doing 3mm/ft and even 2mm/ft, and although I haven't physically seen any of it, it seems to be working for them. James recently created this 3mm/ft turnout and is well-pleased with the result and the chairs. Using the ABS-Like resin he says the chairs are very tough and none of them were broken:

That's my own experience with the Anycubic Water-wash ABS-Like resin. It really is tough. I'm not sure about folks suggesting mixing their own pet resin recipes. That seems to be a separate hobby of 3D printing in its own right rather than railway modelling. Also very messy, not water-washable and possibly expensive.

Now we have folks talking about making even flat-bottom track in 2mm/ft. I know nothing about these small scales, but I do find it surprising that it is even possible. I fear that it won't be possible to stick very closely to the prototype designs, which will be a shame. The reason it is taking so long to get the bullhead plug track done is that I want it to replicate as far as is feasible the prototype REA designs. If I'd been happy with crude approximations for model purposes it would all be finished by now -- in fact if you look back in the archives you will see posts about doing that sort of thing more than 5 years ago. It does upset me to see model crossings with a rail break at the knuckle -- real track isn't like that. Even in soldered copper-clad track we don't do that!

For the present I'm going to keep my thoughts to bullhead in 4mm/ft and above. That's more than enough to keep me fully occupied for the foreseeable future. I shall watch with interest experiments in the smaller scales, but I doubt that I shall be able to add much to the discussions.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[njee20]

Not sure anyone using Templot is seeking "crude approximations" of track, and not sure why the need for such dismissive language. There are always compromises that will likely need to be made, particularly in the smaller scales. In N we have Finetrax, which are good, but to me the cast crossing grates a bit visually, despite not being wholly unprototypical. They're also still a fixed geometry, and whilst they can be manipulated, it's obviously inherently inflexible. My original intention (way before plug-track) was to 3D print bases and fit Finetrax chairs, indeed I've got 200 sprues of them for that purpose, but I'm also impatient, and that's a very laborious process to place all the holes in the right place on large turnouts!

As for mixing resins it's a logical step to manipulate the properties of the various resins. I'm not sure why it would be expensive, you buy two litres of resin and mix it, it lasts the same time as two litres of unmixed resin. There's no wastage. I personally strongly dislike water washable resins. Most are significantly worse in use than 'traditional' resins, particularly when it comes to off-gassing and downstream failure (not an issue for things like this admittedly as they're small, solid parts). They're all just as toxic, and (IMO) breed poor habits, as people assume they're somehow 'safer' and that you can run prints under the tap or pour contaminated water down the drain. I'd sooner dispose of contaminated acetone or IPA, which quickly evaporates. YMMV.

As for printer resolutions, ironically home printers are vastly ahead of the likes of Shapeways and their use of 'industrial' printers, we now typically have <20 micron resolution up to 10" printers, which typical larger MJF printers can't even begin to compete with. Whilst I'm sure industrial printers will catch up eventually it's actually the home printer movement which is leading the curve at the moment.

 

[Paul Boyd]

@Martin Wynne

Hi Martin,

Having previously said that my narrow gauge bullhead areas will be timber bricks only, I'm now reworking that section using 3mm scale track, suitably modified. Therefore in due course I'll be experimenting with 3mm scale plug track as well! "Experimenting" being the operative word in all this! I will be trialling with 4mm scale BH first to get the hang of it before dropping a scale.

I'm essentially using tweaked TT-F, to 9mm gauge. For the previous S4n2 version of my layout I used chairs from the 3mm Society and visually they're acceptable for 4mm scale narrow gauge.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Martin Wynne]

Not sure anyone using Templot is seeking "crude approximations" of track, and not sure why the need for such dismissive language.

@njee20

Hi,

I could perhaps have chosen my words more carefully. I had in mind the recent suggestions that flat-bottom rail might be used in modified bullhead chairs. That seems a silly idea to me, and not really in keeping with the purpose of Templot as an aid to finescale model track-building. Just at the most basic level, bullhead chairs are asymmetrical, with a large jaw and key on the outside of the rail, and a much smaller "grip" jaw on the gauge side. Flat-bottom fixings are almost always symmetrical, apart from small differences introduced by the cant angle.

Templot is my hobby, and I wouldn't be happy to see pictures of such distorted chairs in web sites and magazines described as "created in Templot".

It would be great if Templot can one day support FB track in 3D, based on proper prototype data. But it's unlikely to be me doing it. I'm now 75 years old, and I have been working on Templot on and off for 45 years. Increasingly I feel that my involvement with it will be coming to an end when I've got the current bullhead experiments to a reasonable conclusion. Too many hours spent sitting at a computer is not proving good for my health, the more so as I get older.

It would be even greater if a brand new and different track design program appeared on the scene for hand-built flat-bottom track. After all this time some such a development is surely overdue. I live in hope.

I personally strongly dislike water washable resins. Most are significantly worse in use than 'traditional' resins, particularly when it comes to off-gassing and downstream failure (not an issue for things like this admittedly as they're small, solid parts). They're all just as toxic, and (IMO) breed poor habits, as people assume they're somehow 'safer' and that you can run prints under the tap or pour contaminated water down the drain. I'd sooner dispose of contaminated acetone or IPA, which quickly evaporates. YMMV.

My mileage does vary, at least as far as the plug track chairs are concerned. For the default loose jaws option, the chairs need vigorous plunge washing to remove all traces of surplus resin from the tiny pin slots. For alcohol washing that requires 2 or 3 litres of expensive IPA in a suitable tub. Inevitably plunge washing creates some splashing. IPA is inflammable, so in addition to the cost of the IPA it is sensible to buy a fire extinguisher for the work area.

Water washing is safer, cheaper and far more user-friendly. Nowhere have I suggested washing prints under the tap or pouring contaminated water down the drain. My suggested guide to making chairs on the Alkaid printer using water-washable resin is at:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/what-printer-should-i-get.733/post-9658

As for printer resolutions, ironically home printers are vastly ahead of the likes of Shapeways and their use of 'industrial' printers, we now typically have <20 micron resolution up to 10" printers, which typical larger MJF printers can't even begin to compete with. Whilst I'm sure industrial printers will catch up eventually it's actually the home printer movement which is leading the curve at the moment.

Well maybe, but those hi-res home printers are a lot more expensive than the 2K Alkaid printer at £90 -- which works fine for printing 4mm/ft chairs. Perhaps for the smaller scales it is necessary to factor in a much more expensive printer?

p.s. I'm sorry I don't know your name. It is much easier to write replies on Templot Club if folks sign their posts. Or better still use a version of their real name rather than a nickname. Members can change their user name by going to their account details at:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?account/account-details

cheers,

Martin.

 

[njee20]

My name is Nick. I use the same forum name everywhere, I won’t be using a different one here.

Sorry you feel that way. If I succeed in outputting FB compatible turnouts I will ensure I don’t attribute Templot anywhere I may post them.

I didn’t say you endorse irresponsible disposal of water washable resin, but a lot of people do, under a mistaken perception it is less toxic. I also didn’t mention printer price. A 2K 6” printer still has a resolution of 51 microns, which still surpasses most ‘industrial’ printers.

I printed an entire turnout base in 2mm and washed it in less than 100ml of acetone. To say you need 2-3 litres of IPA is entirely wrong and massively misleading. Water washable resin is not safer than standard resins. This attitude breeds complacency. It’s also more expensive than normal resins - your Anycubic ABS-like is £4 more expensive for water washable. It’s disappointing you spread falsehoods, as people will listen to you.

It was my hope that this would be an inclusive forum to share work, ideas and progress, but evidently I misjudged it. All the best.

 

[Martin Wynne]

I printed an entire turnout base in 2mm and washed it in less than 100ml of acetone. To say you need 2-3 litres of IPA is entirely wrong and massively misleading.

@njee20

Hi Nick,

Was that with loose jaws? I suggest that it would be impossible to wash adequately through the loose jaw pin slots in a full batch of chairs with only 100ml of solvent. The loose jaws are the default option, so it's likely beginners will be using that for their first print. The system fails entirely if the pin slots are clogged with unwashed resin. They require vigorous plunge washing, and that can't be done in only 100ml of solvent.

• Acetone is extremely inflammable/flammable, more so than IPA. It is dangerous to use it for open washing in which it will inevitably get splashed about.

It would be a disaster for me if someone got hurt as a result of following my Templot hobby.

Water washing is much the safer alternative, and I'm sure members of Templot Club wouldn't dispose of the water irresponsibly.

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

They're all just as toxic, and (IMO) breed poor habits, as people assume they're somehow 'safer' and that you can run prints under the tap or pour contaminated water down the drain. I'd sooner dispose of contaminated acetone or IPA, which quickly evaporates. YMMV.

Hi Nick, I am glad you have highlighted this point.
Being directly involved in Industrial organic chemistry for the last 37 years. when it comes to water within that field, it should be more viewed as a source of 2 Hydrogen and 1 oxygen moles, for the purpose of a chemical reaction.

There is nothing more inherently safer with water washable resin. In fact the opposite is most likely true. They are if anything slightly more unstable.

It is true it water washable can be viewed as a cheaper option, given the cost of water is significantly less then an Alcohol such as IPA or Acetone, its also true that both Acetone and IPA require more care with handling then say water. but right there lies the hidden danger. In that there is something of natural perception water is safer therefore the process is safer.
Its something that is passively implied even in the wording used by the manufactures. That is simply not the case, also when it comes to disposal the resin content is the danger and MUST be disposed of safely. An Alcohol does have the advantage of evaporating far easier than water, thus making any reside a dry substance which is better for disposal.

Personally I have no objection to the use of water washable resin more than say traditional resins, in the end its all just chemistry. Its the implication there somehow safer which needs to be called out for what it is SIMPLY NOT TRUE
cheers
Phil

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Phil,

Its something that is passively implied even in the wording used by the manufactures.

My bottles of Elegoo ABS-Like resin (IPA washable) and Anycubic ABS-Like Resin V2 (water washable) have similar warnings.

Elegoo ABS-LIKE resin (IPA washable)
"Wear gloves and mask when using"
"Wash with plenty of water if you get skin contact with resin"


Anycubic ABS-Like Resin V2 (water washable)
"Wear gloves and mask before use, avoid direct skin contact"
"wash with fresh water if there is any accidental skin contact"

So I treat both as equally hazardous compounds.
Neither are "safe".

However when it comes to using and storing the washing medium, I have to say I agree with Martin that I would rather use water than IPA, despite the fact that water is made up of Hydrogen and Oxygen it is far less flammable than IPA and I would rather have a container of water to spill than a container of IPA.

IPA is noxious, water is not.
So for this risk averse 76 year water is safer to use.

But each to their own opinions and methods.

Once it is contaminated with resin, handle it as though it is IPA.

Sorry to worry you Phil but your body is composed of over 50% water.
You have water piped into your home.
I assume you also drink water.

Always, always:- Keep all types of Resin away from children

Risk Averse Steve

 

[Phil G]

Hi Steve,
Glad your reading and following the safety information that was my point to be honest. As you say each to there own And I did not say I would not use water. I simply pointed out its true position from a chemical perspective.

I do feel I have to pull you up on your last comments, in addition to being totally silly your not even right.

Sorry to worry you Phil but your body is composed of over 50% water.
You have water piped into your home.
I assume you also drink water.

1, it's well over 50%, the last time I checked it was stated as just under 90% liquid in the human body most of which is water.
2, yes I do have water piped into my house, as do most people. About 50 years ago the pipes were also made of lead, then they realised H20 is prone to interacting with other chemicals, (sound familiar) hence its quite possible for a person to get lead poisoning via the water passing though the lead pipes. Hence lead pipes are no longer allowed
3 Did you know you can die from over-hydration? it is in fact a bigger problem then dehydration, by virtue as its much harder to see the signs for what they are.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Phil,
I was going by a random sample of websites, so chose to state "over 50%"

eg https://www.healthline.com/health/body-water-percentage

Here is quite an interesting diagram:-

https://waterwaysproducts.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/water-in-the-human-body-1.jpg

regards Silly Steve

 

[Phil G]

Hi Steve,
I stand correct on my second point, it was much closer to 75 years ago, when they stared to realise there was a danger to lead pipes.
A quick check on google also give me this,
https://www.healthline.com/health/overhydration
The point being its lack of understanding of the subject mater, that is the biggest issue here. (I am not saying you have a lack of understanding here by the way) just point out that's the base problem.
cheers
Phil,

 

[Phil G]

Hi Steve,
All of this has remined me of my first day at University, on the subject of organic chemistry. The lecturer opened by asking a general question to the whole class, where we all had to write down, "which chemical substance we thought had killed more human beings each year, and had constantly done so since records began", and likely long before that.
Guess what the correct answer was !!!!

Now I will openly admit, that stat is mainly though drownings, but the point was. All chemicals can be deadly if not treated with due respect.
cheers
Phil

 

[Steve_Cornford]

ps Phil G,
The BB etches are not yet available from the S4 stores. The S4 Stores ordered them from the etchers at the end of last year.
I will keep you posted when I have more news.
Do you need any Masokits etches as well?
Steve

 

[Phil O]

Hi Steve,

I prefer to have my drinking water, to be contaminated with Malt, Hops and Yeast and once heated for a period of time and then cooled it tastes a lot better!!

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Does that mean you are in the IPA camp then Phil?

Steve

 

[Phil G]

Hi Steve,

I prefer to have my drinking water, to be contaminated with Malt, Hops and Yeast and once heated for a period of time and then cooled it tastes a lot better!!

Does that mean you are in the IPA camp then Phil?

Steve

Most certainly not!!!
Good old fashioned English beer for me, not that its easily to get in NZ any longer. Used to be able to get John Smiths in barrels a few years ago, then only in widget cans, and now not very often at all (another one that bit the dust during Covid and never recovered)
Here we get far to many US type beers and lagers
cheers
Phil,

 

[Phil G]

ps Phil G,
The BB etches are not yet available from the S4 stores. The S4 Stores ordered them from the etchers at the end of last year.
I will keep you posted when I have more news.
Do you need any Masokits etches as well?
Steve

Hi Steve,
Thanks for the update no great rush.
I had not even though about Masokits to be honest, I did think of trying some a few years back, then I found you had to be an S4 member so in the end did not bother. Are they any good?
I guess no harm in adding a couple of the 7.02 RCH just to try them out. I don't have a copy of the instruction booklet either.

I used to get BB w-irons from wizard mainly because he does V.A.T free pricing, which helps off set the postage and then the NZ tax I have to pay. There currently not avaible from Wizard, and I have no idea if and when they will be again.
cheers
Phil,

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Phil G,
Sorry I was asking the question of Phil O.

India Pale Ale as brewed in England (and used to be shipped by Tea Clippers in bottles from England via South America & thence to India), rather than American Pale Ale!

A for Masokits, you dont need to be an S4 member, but you do need to reside in the UK.

Hi Nick,
Welcome to Templot club, sorry to have hijacked your topic.

Steve

 

[Phil O]

Hi Steve,

Yes I do like an IPA when I can get it, we used to get Palmers from Bridport, but I have not seen any down here for ages.

Sorry for the continued thread drift.