Flat-bottom rail and concrete sleepers? Open-source?

[Richard Barrass]

Hello
I'm planning a new layout (gauge will be '00' to be compatible with friends and family) but I am planning on going the 'none Peco' route for all the scenic track as I love the better look from the EM/P4 examples I see...
However, since I'm planning a factitious layout or version of a railway long gone in the present day, I am keen to understand the use of flat bottom rail and concrete sleepering as you would expect to see.
Yes, I understand there are issues with sourcing appropriate sleepers and chairs etc along with the rail, but perhaps a parallel skill development in 3d printing will be required!
I understand Templot is specifically tailored for bullhead rail designs and would need changing to allow the correct designs?
Can anyone help with references and what the implications might be to using Templot?
Kind regards
Richard

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Richard Barrass

Hello Richard,

Welcome to Templot Club.

Where it is still used, bullhead (BH) track has hardly changed from the REA designs introduced in 1925. That's almost 100 years!

In contrast, flat-bottom track (FB) has been through numerous designs and changes over the years. It is a minefield to work through if you want historically accurate FB track for a given location or period. For the full chapter and verse, see these pages:

https://www.mmrs.co.uk/technical-articles/modern-permanent-way/

As far as "traditional" Templot is concerned (printing paper templates for track construction), we draw the line at FB track renewed after 1970, when the vertical 1432mm gauge switches were introduced. Of course a lot of pre-1970 FB track remained in use for many years afterwards, and for that Templot can include the rail-foot lines on the template, and includes the full range of BS-113A curved and semi-curved inclined switches.

As far as the Templot 3D plug track is concerned (still in experimental development), only BH has yet been attempted, and 3D FB track remains in the sunny uplands far away. For the earliest designs of FB, using cast baseplates screwed to wooden timbers, it might be possible to get part of the way there by modifying the dimensions of the bullhead chair bases:

version of a railway long gone in the present day, I am keen to understand the use of flat bottom rail and concrete sleepering as you would expect to see.

I'm puzzled what you mean there? Any railway long-gone in the present day is likely to have been BH to the end, or inclined FB on timbers. It is very unlikely to have had FB on concrete sleepers, although may have had BH chairs on early-pattern concrete sleepers, like this:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Matt M.]

Hi Richard,

All of what Martin states above plus if modern flat bottom on concrete then the issue
of Pandrol Clips raises its head. I looked at the problem about ten years ago for
Scale 7. Peco found that it was impossible to do scale Pandrol Clips in 4mm due to lack of
structural integrity for use. So slide on plates to scale would be out.
There was also a problem with injection flow.

I looked at metal printing but at that time it was too expensive even to consider.
That has changed but even in 7mm you would be looking at more expensive metal choices I think.

Then there are the variations of baseplate and clips as well plus things like Zero Toe Load fastenings
for when you need to allow longitudinal movement of the rail, (bridges).

Not to put you off, but be aware of the problems.

Regards, Matt M.

 

[Richard Barrass]

Many thanks for the replies gents,

Martin, I have been a long time licensee of Templot... the old classic story of never quite getting to lay any track has meant two house moves before a potential of a double garage now changing my original desires/plans

My reference to a railway long gone but in present day is my modellers license of Swindon's other railway being kept on and survived to modern day -- with a few infrastructure upgrades as needed... hence expecting that the trackwork over time, would be upgraded to modern concrete sleeper and therefore FB rails.

I have watched lots of YT videos recently and feel more confident in utilising Templot for what I would like to achieve. The software engineer in me is curious in that you have open-sourced a significant amount of the code base... hats off for achieving what you have using Pascal! I wonder if a port to C++ and something like Qt would enable a more cross-platform option?

I have found the research in to all things track work interesting too... and a chance conversation with my father revealed that my late grandfather used to work in the manufacture of the pandrol clips! -- who knew!

More research needed - the Pandrol website certainly is an eye opener!

Regards
Richard

 

[Martin Wynne]

The software engineer in me is curious in that you have open-sourced a significant amount of the code base... hats off for achieving what you have using Pascal! I wonder if a port to C++ and something like Qt would enable a more cross-platform option?

@Richard Barrass @graeme @Alistair Ward

Hi Richard,

It is now 5 years since I open-sourced the Templot code as it then was. You can find it at:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/opentemplot/

It will compile and run in the Lazarus compiler, although I have continued to use my old favourite Delphi5 compiler from 1998 for all subsequent developments.

Since then I have made many changes and updates in Templot. I have partially updated some of the open-source files, but not yet all -- mainly because I change them so often. There is also the problem that Templot includes some proprietary components for which I purchased a licence many years ago and for which I cannot publish the code. I have been working on Templot in one form or another for 44 years now.

Alistair and Graeme are working on the open-source code to produce a modern cross-platform version of Templot and I'm sure they would welcome any help you can give. They are both on the other side of the planet, Thailand and New Zealand, so a team member based in the UK with knowledge of UK trackwork would no doubt be very welcome.

In a few weeks time my brain will be 75 years old. There is no chance whatsoever of my porting Templot to C++ or any other language. I don't actually know any other language very well.

What I have long been hoping for is that some youngster would show up with a completely new track design program as a modern replacement for Templot. I could then put my feet up and leave them to get on with it. But there is no sign of any such person or program, and I'm getting very tired nowadays of writing this stuff over and over again for hour after hour. There are any number of pick-and-place track design programs, but little else for hand-built track. Over to you?

cheers,

Martin.