Building 3D track

[Martin Wynne]

.
The experimental loose-jaw option isn't yet in the current Templot update, but I have posted some test STL files (for EM / 00-SF) if you would like to try printing them -- see:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...3d-printed-cnc-milled-laser-cut.229/post-5232

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Very impressive, but what is wrong with the one piece slide chairs ?

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Not a lot but they as they only have one jaw they need to be pluuged into timbers and then the stock rail with other chairs attached have to be guided past them in order to plug the other chairs in. The separate loose jaw avoids the need for this guiding process, as the loose jaws are slotted in after the stock rail is plugged using the rest of the other chair plugs.
Both methods probably need a dab of superglue to complete.
I have now printed some S1 and P slide chairs with loose jaws and am having go assembling them.
Although (in 4mm) the loose jaws are tiny they do work.
Having detached a pile of loose jaws, In practice in takes me about 15 seconds per jaw to pick up a jaw in a pair of cermaic nosed tweezers (the type sold for vape users, not that i do) and insert into the slot and then press home.
This with the aid of a cheap illumintaed magnifying glass on a stand
Some might prefer the fixed jaw slide chairs, so perhaps we can persuade Martin to add a tick box option for this?
Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

Some might prefer the fixed jaw slide chairs, so perhaps we can persuade Martin to add a tick box option for this?

@Hayfield @Steve_Cornford

Hi John, Steve,

No persuading needed, every single thing will eventually have a tickbox or a dimension adjustment. At present for my experiments it's a single setting which affects the entire export file:

But that will change when I have worked out a proper user interface for all this stuff. In the end I want to be able to select any single chair anywhere and change it to some other chair, or change something about it. Or all the similar chairs, or all the nearby chairs, or whatever. That's a process I have provisionally called "chair heaving". I am nowhere near getting any of that done yet, I'm still at the experimental stage of finding out what works and what doesn't work. Until we know that there is no point in doing anything else.

John, the problem with the 1-piece slide chairs is that as Steve says they are a bit tricky to install.

You can't slide them on the rail, so you have to insert them loosely in their sockets in advance. But not firm them down, because installing the plug-in stock rail causes it to move down gradually as you firm back and forth along it. That would break the jaws on the slide chairs if they were already firmed down. So you must leave the slide chairs loose in their sockets, hook the chaired stock rail under their jaws while the stock rail chairs are still loose in the sockets, and then firm down all the stock rail chairs, including the slide chairs, at the same time.

For a single turnout there is probably some wriggle room in that process, and you might prefer to slide the stock rail out of the way.

But for switches within more complex formations, such as within a slip, you don't have so much freedom. In such cases having the loose jaws would make it a lot easier. The slide chair bases can be fully installed before you do anything else. The turnout or slip is then built over the top of them, and inserting the loose jaws in them can wait till last.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Thanks, I understand the issue now

 

[ralphrobertson]

Having laid the final section of track on my layout I thought I would share how I used the Templot 3D printed chairs to help do it quicker. Please remember that I do not use Templot chairs for turnouts I ONLY use the S1 chair that is generated through Templot but I have changed some settings to allow them to be used with card cut sleepers that I make using my Darkly Labs Emblaser 2 laser cutter.

I have used a few different methods of cutting the sleepers but found the following system the easiest. Having said that I am building a small (8ft long) shunting layout and there could be better ways which I haven't found yet - the next layout perhaps.

Here is the cutter making a strip of timbers. The material is 1.5mm mounting board, readily available for picture framing and you can get it easily at Hobbycraft and other stationery suppliers. The slots for the chairs is cut initially followed by the centres and finally a perimeter cut which leaves a scale length section of track base.

The next step is to thread a rail with the correct number of chairs and space them out roughly. Having placed the card sleepers on a piece of a plastic bag and using a 20 minute setting epoxy glue I place a small drop in the chair socket. The chairs are then spread out dropping them into the socket and lead weights placed whilst the glue sets.

The result is a one-railed track panel which is ready for forming for any curve so the next process is to cut out the web spacers.

The sleepers can then be glued in place (PVA) and the second rail is threaded with corresponding chairs. Once the glue is set the second rail chairs are glued in place, again with 20 minute epoxy, and weighted down.

And finally once all is dry the second web spacers are cut away leaving ready chaired track.

I must add that this is my preferred way to do it and only used the Templot generated S1 chairs as part of the process. Thanks for Martin this has saved me time and money and in my view produces a neat way to lay plain track.

I hope this encourages others to have a go and you have found it interesting.

Ralph

Edited to correct typo.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Did you shake the bottle of resin well before use? You may have an imperfect mix if it has settled in the bottom of the bottle. The instructions say to shake it well, but don't explain how to deal with the fact that it is then frothy when you pour it out. I have learned the hard way to shake it an hour or so before I need it and leave it to settle in the bottle. This is all the typical learning on the job that they never put in the instructions.

@Steve_Cornford

This guy seems to know what he is talking about. The chemistry lesson is a bit tedious, but the final part about safety and disposal is very informative:

p.s. Shake it again!

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

.
Next order from Amazon for the 3D printing den:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09LCDM336

Resin got very frothy from shaking yesterday.

Left it 24 hours to settle, then reverted to my old trick from photographic developing days -- chuck glass marbles into the bottle until it's brimful with no air. Then put the cap on and shake it. Hold something across the opening while pouring it out in case one tries to escape.

I even found my old tin of marbles behind some bottles of Acutol. Not quite enough so I've ordered some more. Marbles I mean, not Acutol.

Wash them in IPA before first use. And then 3D-print one of these:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

.
Currently on offer in the middle of Lidl is a wallet of 10 fine-pointed tweezers for £6:

They are not the self-locking type, but do have very fine points and look to be very handy for general modelling and handling track chairs.

There are 10 different designs marked with different part numbers, although several of them are very similar, just different lengths.

ESD insulating coating, so can be safely used to handle sensitive electronic components if needed. The coating also gives them a good non-slip feel.

Worth a look if you are making plug track and happen to be in Lidl. They also have eggs suitable for boiling.

Martin.

 

[James Walters]

Hi Martin,

I just read your comments in the post above referencing an experimental laser-cut turnout base I'd given to John a while back.
Just for clarity, and to avoid any doubt, it was more of an experiment in seeing what I could do in terms of exporting from Templot in Solidworks and other CAD software that I use. I hadn't intended for it to appear in the public domain.
All of your observations regarding the piece are spot on, especially the reference to the crossing chairs. I think from memory, none of the 'vectors' in that particular file were as delivered from Templot, in that I'd messed with all of it post-Templot. The fact that the ply is also too thick to be compatible with other systems is another mark against it.
I note your concern with my experiment, which I hope in no way influences others or detracts from your direction of travel with this project all of which has been a joy to behold. That is why to-date I have not posted anything myself with regard to my personal experiments either here or on YouTube as I understand the job is a work-in-progress and I would want to confuse things. For reference, I have built several test pieces using FDM bases, in addition to laser-cut, and have found the controls built into Templot to produce excellent results with no additional CAD input at all.
I so enjoy using templot, and felt it necessary to acknowledge your comments and clarify that I would never intend to cause a distraction.
I regret not noticing it up sooner.
All the best,
James

 

[Martin Wynne]

@James Walters @Steve_Cornford

Hi James,

No worries, thanks for writing. And for your excellent Bexhill videos.

As usual, I've got in a bit of muddle. I'm not too sure which post of mine you are referring to? Did you do the samples of laser-cut bases which Steve sent me? He was (still is?) using narrower 1.7mm plugs instead of the 2.0mm wide plugs which I'm using in the plug track.

Without a laser-cutter machine here, I'm a bit lost when it comes to discussing laser-cutting for plug track. I have no idea what typical cutting resolution the machines achieve, or how the home machines compare with the results from commercial firms. The Gauge 0 Guild Gazette has ads for laser cutters costing £8K. I don't know how many modellers are using such machines -- presumably not many. Or what settings they offer which are not available on the lower-cost machines. Ideally we could do with an official laser-cutter correspondent to take over all Q&A on the subject for plug track.

Today I'm doing battle with the computer code for the angled check-end chairs. They look simple enough, but are actually the most tricky part of the special crossing chairs, because of all the adjustments available on the check rail flared ends. I need a boiled egg.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[James Walters]

Thanks Martin, I'd be delighted to offer my machine up for any experiment you'd like to try. Popping bits and pieces in the post to you for expert evaluation would be no trouble either as I'm doing it most days anyway.
I have been tinkering with different 'recipe' ideas with the laser and results are very encouraging indeed.
FYI, I have a 100w laser with a 1500x1000mm bed, so it's capable of cutting quite impressive formations in one go.
I'd love to chat with you about my experiments at some point.
Best,
James

 

[Martin Wynne]

FYI, I have a 100w laser with a 1500x1000mm bed, so it's capable of cutting quite impressive formations in one go.
I'd love to chat with you about my experiments at some point.

@James Walters

Hi James,

That's great. But how typical is that of the laser cutter a typical Templot user might have? Or conversely how typical is it of the laser cutter a commercial firm might have if they were sent Templot files for cutting?

For example, I could add some tick-boxes for "output suitable for for home laser cutter", "output suitable for commercial laser cutting", if I had the faintest idea what the different settings might be. I can imagine differences in the kerf width, differences in the socket tolerances etc. All this can be set by the user of course, but my aim is to arrive at a system where folks can create plug track almost as easily as printing a paper template, with the default settings in Templot.

We have a Zoom meeting at 8pm tonight if you would like to chat about this?

Details: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/zoom-meetings-access-links.620/latest

cheers,

Martin.

 

[James Walters]

Hi Martin,

Templot setting wise I think the controls are already there, regardless of whether a commercial cutter or domestic machine were to be used.
I'll join the zoom later and will have an example lasered template to show.
See you later.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Phil G

Just looking at this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Longer-RAY5-Engraver-Accuracy-Engraving/dp/B0B9WNLXZF

This one seems to be claiming a very narrow kerf line, and will cut 3mm plywood. Is it worth looking at? I know nothing. Anyone?

Change the playback speed to 0.75 to make sense of this:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Charles Orr]

Hi Martin,
This is almost identical to the Enjoywood CEL e10 which I bought 6 months ago.
Mine will easily cut 10mm ply and has a very fine kerf line.
I've just purchased an enclosure for it together with an air assist kit so I can use it safely.
So far I've used it to cut some platform profiles but I'm going to experiment with timbers
Cheers
Charles

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,
That looks very interesting, I bought the Laser tree 10W laser. Note that's output power (same as this one I believe) which has not arrived yet. Similar price for the laser head only.
The narrow cut kerf on this one sounds very promising. I hope I don't end up have to end up with two laser heads

On the net everybody is saying the air assist is critical both for smoke removal but also for laser accuracy, however in its most basic form it can be a cheap aquarium air pump and a 3D printed nozzle at the Laser head. (a few on Thingeverse).
I agree with Charles's comments about the cover, my plan is to build a cover for the complete unit this weekend.

I went with the Masuter Pro only because you get a more sturdy frame and in theory at least, it can do a similar job to say a 3018 CNC machine, as well as act as a laser frame. If you go with this type of laser machine complete with frame, it seems its only strong enough to support the laser, which is a non contact cuter.

May be you should check if your CNC machine can take a laser head, it most likely can, all be it you will get a smaller cut area.
Once my laser head arrives, I will do some tests and report back on accuracy and repeatability.
cheers
Phil

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,
Just a quick comment about the idea of laser cutting the timbers, I am envisioning for something like a crossover the laser should basically remove any need to print a template and then build it to the print. In reality you could also that with both plain track and simple turnouts. However the poor use of the wood, would make that an expensive way to build track.
This Idea may not work, but I think it worth experimenting with.
If you find you need to have 3 dimensional capacity at the vee, I am thinking/hoping that's where the router option comes into play.
just an other idea to throw into the mix.
Cheers
Phil.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Martin,
Just a quick comment about the idea of laser cutting the timbers, I am envisioning for something like a crossover the laser should basically remove any need to print a template and then build it to the print. In reality you could also that with both plain track and simple turnouts. However the poor use of the wood, would make that an expensive way to build track.
This Idea may not work, but I think it worth experimenting with.
If you find you need to have 3 dimensional capacity at the vee, I am thinking/hoping that's where the router option comes into play.
just an other idea to throw into the mix.
Cheers
Phil.

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

Until I have got to the stage where we can create full turnouts, crossovers, etc., the whole question of how to install plug track on the baseboard is conjecture. There are lots of ideas to try.

There are some existing suppliers of plain laser-cut timberIng bases as an alternative to a paper template. In the days before plug track I was quite rude about them, being an expensive and wasteful way of building track which actually makes it more difficult to build than sticking individual timbers on a paper template. There are details marked on the template which you need to refer to. And any time saved in not having to stick the timbers on the template (an easy task) is completely cancelled out by the time and effort involved in removing the webs under the rail after assembly without damaging the track.

Plug track changes that by doing all the gauging and rail alignments for you. But it is still wasteful of expensive plywood if a large station throat or junction is going to be cut out of a single sheet of ply.

For FDM timbering the tommy bar part of the connector clips includes a hole for a 1mm veneer pin (moulding pin) which can be used to align track on the baseboard without needing a paper template. As many additional tommy bars can be added to a timbering brick as needed, they don't have to be part of a full clip. I derived the connector clips from the target marks in the background shapes for the very reason of using them for baseboard alignment. The 1mm pin hole is square so that it can be a close-tolerance bash fit on a veneer pin:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Moulding-Pins-Veneer-Bright-Steel/dp/B00CX20K4O

The same thing could be done with timbering bricks for laser-cut bases, so avoiding wasting so much plywood. But without a laser-cutter of my own to try things, I don't have any idea what is feasible or what dimensions to use for such a clip. The existing size would be very fragile in plywood, at least in 4mm scale.

May be you should check if your CNC machine can take a laser head, it most likely can, all be it you will get a smaller cut area.

It can do, but it would need an external power supply for the laser, switched via a relay on the spindle motor supply. The motor supply is PWM speed controlled, but a relay wouldn't mind that. I can do all that one day. The problem is where to put it. There are ferrous parts in the CNC machine (slide rails, axis screws, spindle, collets, etc.) which will rust if left in an unheated outbuilding. I have a bench in there which I could use, but stored underneath it is the petrol mower, so that would need to go somewhere else. I suspect it's not a good idea to have a laser-cutter within shouting distance of petrol. The same applies to the tubs of IPA in the 3D printing den. All this applies with equal force if I get a full laser cutter of course.

And I don't really want to tie up the CNC machine as a laser cutter, or keep swapping it back and forth. I'm still keen to develop the CNC milling for the plug track:

Which is also a bit wasteful, but MDF is a lot less expensive than quality plywood.

The timbers need to be milled only about 1mm deep (deeper for the sockets), so if milled into say 5mm or 6mm MDF the track panels may be self-supporting and not need a baseboard surface? They could be fixed directly to baseboard frames of open-top design under the trackbed.

Milling is much faster than FDM printing, if a lot noisier, but unlike FDM it needs constant attention for tool changes, etc.

If I could just get to the stage of having the crossing chairs done, I have a head full of such ideas I want to try for track building and laying with plug track. But nothing much can be done until we have full turnouts possible.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

.
Just received an email from Amazon to say the Elegoo Mercury wash/cure machine is currently on offer at £99:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ELEGOO-Mercury-Curing-Machine-Printers/dp/B09B3JNGQ5

This is the later model which can wash with the lid on the tub to reduce IPA fumes and evaporation loss.

But the notes suggest it is not suitable for water-washable resin.

Martin.